A New Message for Police: If You See Something, Say Something

[rjs330]

Is there some reliable proven method for detecting implicit bias?

And not to mention how do you encourage implicit bias?

 

[rjs330]

It's not that they can make mistakes....it's that they will...

They're people. They make mistakes.

The fact this needs explained at all just reinforces my point about why you should stop trying to help.

This is fantastic. I had to laugh out loud. Yes! If we can't admit mistakes are going to made in every profession including police and those mistakes do not always rise to criminal or biased action then we shouldn't be trying to do anything to address it.

Yes sometimes mistakes are criminal in action. But those are so rare that it cannot be presented as a problem that must be addressed at all cost. Same goes with bias. You have to prove that on individual cases and that's extremely difficult to do.

Thanks for the response on that one.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Well the $200k would be reduced by the liability insurance that each and every cop would have to get, once qualified immunity was done away with.

I don't think you understand what that would do.

Let's say we went with this plan....and let's say there's some facts that you aren't aware of ....like 50% of criminals allege police of misconduct, falsely, as a bad strategy for avoiding jail (because once you're caught, why not try any strategy)?

Once you get rid of qualified immunity, you'll get a group of "ambulance chaser" lawyers looking for the 1 good allegation out of 1000 that will win them the big million dollar payoff.

That means at the very least, a lot of cops will end up going to court over bogus allegations....a lot. No police department will want to risk putting the cop out on patrol....so he's sitting at a desk.

How long before every single cop is sitting at a desk? A week? A month? 2 months?

Court doesn't move quickly.

Qualified immunity is absolutely necessary. If any politician is genuinely trying to get rid of it, it's because they're incredibly naive, or they're putting on a show for their constituents.

 

[rjs330]

See the above example of a criminal. Sadly, I didn't know about it, I just had to Google "teen kills elderly" and dozens of examples pop up.

It would be comical if it wasn't so sad. You don't know anything about crime in the US.

Well they are killing them because they are starving and have no food. Either that or they are just trying to provide for their family.

Or at least that's the claim.

 

[HARK!]

MOD HAT ON

MOD HAT OFF​

 

[rjs330]

Pay cops $200k/yr.
The competition to not *lose* such remuneration due to shoddy work will take care of the problems.

Nah, you just have high paid racist thugs.

 

[Ana the Ist]

This is fantastic. I had to laugh out loud. Yes! If we can't admit mistakes are going to made in every profession including police and those mistakes do not always rise to criminal or biased action then we shouldn't be trying to do anything to address it.

Yes sometimes mistakes are criminal in action. But those are so rare that it cannot be presented as a problem that must be addressed at all cost. Same goes with bias. You have to prove that on individual cases and that's extremely difficult to do.

Thanks for the response on that one.

You know what the sad thing is? There's real problems here....real solutions....and no one wants to examine either.

Statistically...if we roll the clock back 10 years, we had a pretty good police force. It was a skeleton crew, it had problems, but they aren't the problems people claimed (mostly). They performed their function, reducing crime, year after year. Thank you police.

People started complaining when a tiny number of high visibility viral incidents went across the internet. They are average people with average intelligence, so I'm not blaming anyone for believing stupid things when they are emotional. The problem, generally, is that when police encounter black people (men mostly) it doesn't always go as well as they would like.

Mistake 1....only scrutinizing police. Why? Because you were called racist if you scrutinized black men or black people.

Mistake 2....accepting any dumb explanation for the problem no matter how ridiculous or vague. Unconscious bias? Nobody can identify those, and they certainly can't change them. Systemic racism? That just means "I assume the police are racist". It's not a good assumption.

So why don't we examine the other side? Well for starters, if Republicans are interested at all...they either don't understand the problem or see only the easy solution of more police. Democrats want these people to vote for them, so they can't actually scrutinize the half of the problem that possibly contains the problem. What's worse, any real solutions are likely slow and will take years to solve, and that's not going to help you get reelected. You're going to tell the people who are complaining that the problem lies with them? And it's going to be a slow process that takes years to dig them out of the cycle of violence and poverty? Now vote for me? Democratic candidates are cowards, but they aren't stupid. That's not an easy sell.

So they don't try.

Anyway, I'm clearly seen as racist on here by many people, but I don't think I am....so I can scrutinize the other half of the problem. After all, the black communities having these problems are people like everyone else, they make mistakes, they have problems. It's not all black people or even a majority, and since I don't have a lot of statistics....so a lot of this is going to be guesswork. I'm also not interested in delving into some blame game that extends into the far past....because I can't fix the past, and I'm interested in helping people now.

Ready? Here we go...don't quote me on these stats because I'm going off of memory.

1 in 3 black men ages 18-30 will do time in jail. Let's assume for a moment that this is because they are criminals and likely on their 2nd, 3rd, maybe 4th chance. Let's not assume it's because police are rahhhhcist!

Something like 70% of young black women are single mothers and that's not hard to understand if you know that....

Attitudes toward interracial relationships are more negative in the black community than any other community. Remember when we used to talk about racist white fathers angry when their daughter dated a black man? Well now, that's less common than black men and women who look down on interracial dating. That's one of many racist attitudes in the black community I'm not going to go into.

So if I just know that, I can start to make sense of something happening. The dating market for young black women is pretty messed up. They're choosing between a lot of young black men who are criminals and in and out of jail. The young black men have little reason to settle down into stable households and form families because they have a large group of black women available to them since 1 in three male competitors is in jail.

With this in mind, it's not hard to see what the downstream effects are. Those effects include an increased amount of contact with the police who keep disrupting the whole situation. Crime gets normalized in some communities. Multiple children with multiple fathers gets normalized. Without a stable home, mothers have to work multiple jobs and with no one to raise the boys, they join gangs and the cycle repeats. Again, I'm not interested in the string of causes in the past. Can't fix the past.

The problem is best looked at (assuming I'm correct) how do we keep these boys off the path of crime?

It's a tough problem. We'd have to look at ways of preventing this early. It's almost certainly going to be localized to these specific communities where crime is so endemic. I've seen things that are promising though....but they've never been well funded or widespread. They also really need to hit multiple aspects of the problem at the same time.

Things like...

Reading programs for young children.
The Dads against violence program where fathers stepped up to end violence in the school, why can't we fund that? Pay them.
After school programs of all sorts. Get them out of gangs, playing sports, after school. They learn teamwork, they settle disputes, they have an outlet for aggression, they learn winning and losing with the supervision of positive male role models. Make those programs everywhere in those communities.

We gotta help the single mothers too. Deincentivize having multiple children by multiple fathers. Get them better paying jobs or increase the wages at the jobs they have. Help them with the parenting....I don't know how to do this really.

Let's not forget the young black men already caught in a system of normalized crime. Pick the ones who seem to be genuinely trying to do the right thing, and simply keep making mistakes for easy money, and cut them deals where they stay out of jail if they stay employed and be fathers to their children.

Shocking. I'm certain this stuff can be examined. I'm sure the picture can be given more clarity. I'm pretty sure that won't happen though. I'll just be called racist....or told I'm victim blaming. That's ok.

Because those people are cowards. They engage in reactionary groupthink. They drop the position they held one moment, and adopt the opposite the next. They only want to signal which team they are on. Cowards afraid to have their own opinions or to say them.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Well they are killing them because they are starving and have no food. Either that or they are just trying to provide for their family.

Or at least that's the claim.

I think that kid was probably robbing people. Breaking and entering, burglary, and he chose an elderly feeble target. He probably panicked and killed her when caught.

That's not something a lot of 14yo kids do. It tells you something about his environment, his mindset, and the problem. Crime is normal for him. Police are the enemy.

 

[Pommer]

You know what the sad thing is? There's real problems here....real solutions....and no one wants to examine either.

Statistically...if we roll the clock back 10 years, we had a pretty good police force. It was a skeleton crew, it had problems, but they aren't the problems people claimed (mostly). They performed their function, reducing crime, year after year. Thank you police.

People started complaining when a tiny number of high visibility viral incidents went across the internet. They are average people with average intelligence, so I'm not blaming anyone for believing stupid things when they are emotional. The problem, generally, is that when police encounter black people (men mostly) it doesn't always go as well as they would like.

Mistake 1....only scrutinizing police. Why? Because you were called racist if you scrutinized black men or black people.

Mistake 2....accepting any dumb explanation for the problem no matter how ridiculous or vague. Unconscious bias? Nobody can identify those, and they certainly can't change them. Systemic racism? That just means "I assume the police are racist". It's not a good assumption.

So why don't we examine the other side? Well for starters, if Republicans are interested at all...they either don't understand the problem or see only the easy solution of more police. Democrats want these people to vote for them, so they can't actually scrutinize the half of the problem that possibly contains the problem. What's worse, any real solutions are likely slow and will take years to solve, and that's not going to help you get reelected. You're going to tell the people who are complaining that the problem lies with them? And it's going to be a slow process that takes years to dig them out of the cycle of violence and poverty? Now vote for me? Democratic candidates are cowards, but they aren't stupid. That's not an easy sell.

So they don't try.

Anyway, I'm clearly seen as racist on here by many people, but I don't think I am....so I can scrutinize the other half of the problem. After all, the black communities having these problems are people like everyone else, they make mistakes, they have problems. It's not all black people or even a majority, and since I don't have a lot of statistics....so a lot of this is going to be guesswork. I'm also not interested in delving into some blame game that extends into the far past....because I can't fix the past, and I'm interested in helping people now.

Ready? Here we go...don't quote me on these stats because I'm going off of memory.

1 in 3 black men ages 18-30 will do time in jail. Let's assume for a moment that this is because they are criminals and likely on their 2nd, 3rd, maybe 4th chance. Let's not assume it's because police are rahhhhcist!

Something like 70% of young black women are single mothers and that's not hard to understand if you know that....

Attitudes toward interracial relationships are more negative in the black community than any other community. Remember when we used to talk about racist white fathers angry when their daughter dated a black man? Well now, that's less common than black men and women who look down on interracial dating. That's one of many racist attitudes in the black community I'm not going to go into.

So if I just know that, I can start to make sense of something happening. The dating market for young black women is pretty messed up. They're choosing between a lot of young black men who are criminals and in and out of jail. The young black men have little reason to settle down into stable households and form families because they have a large group of black women available to them since 1 in three male competitors is in jail.

With this in mind, it's not hard to see what the downstream effects are. Those effects include an increased amount of contact with the police who keep disrupting the whole situation. Crime gets normalized in some communities. Multiple children with multiple fathers gets normalized. Without a stable home, mothers have to work multiple jobs and with no one to raise the boys, they join gangs and the cycle repeats. Again, I'm not interested in the string of causes in the past. Can't fix the past.

The problem is best looked at (assuming I'm correct) how do we keep these boys off the path of crime?

It's a tough problem. We'd have to look at ways of preventing this early. It's almost certainly going to be localized to these specific communities where crime is so endemic. I've seen things that are promising though....but they've never been well funded or widespread. They also really need to hit multiple aspects of the problem at the same time.

Things like...

Reading programs for young children.
The Dads against violence program where fathers stepped up to end violence in the school, why can't we fund that? Pay them.
After school programs of all sorts. Get them out of gangs, playing sports, after school. They learn teamwork, they settle disputes, they have an outlet for aggression, they learn winning and losing with the supervision of positive male role models. Make those programs everywhere in those communities.

We gotta help the single mothers too. Deincentivize having multiple children by multiple fathers. Get them better paying jobs or increase the wages at the jobs they have. Help them with the parenting....I don't know how to do this really.

Let's not forget the young black men already caught in a system of normalized crime. Pick the ones who seem to be genuinely trying to do the right thing, and simply keep making mistakes for easy money, and cut them deals where they stay out of jail if they stay employed and be fathers to their children.

Shocking. I'm certain this stuff can be examined. I'm sure the picture can be given more clarity. I'm pretty sure that won't happen though. I'll just be called racist....or told I'm victim blaming. That's ok.

Because those people are cowards. They engage in reactionary groupthink. They drop the position they held one moment, and adopt the opposite the next. They only want to signal which team they are on. Cowards afraid to have their own opinions or to say them.

I love it when you hold forth.

 

[rjs330]

You know what the sad thing is? There's real problems here....real solutions....and no one wants to examine either.

Statistically...if we roll the clock back 10 years, we had a pretty good police force. It was a skeleton crew, it had problems, but they aren't the problems people claimed (mostly). They performed their function, reducing crime, year after year. Thank you police.

People started complaining when a tiny number of high visibility viral incidents went across the internet. They are average people with average intelligence, so I'm not blaming anyone for believing stupid things when they are emotional. The problem, generally, is that when police encounter black people (men mostly) it doesn't always go as well as they would like.

Mistake 1....only scrutinizing police. Why? Because you were called racist if you scrutinized black men or black people.

Mistake 2....accepting any dumb explanation for the problem no matter how ridiculous or vague. Unconscious bias? Nobody can identify those, and they certainly can't change them. Systemic racism? That just means "I assume the police are racist". It's not a good assumption.

So why don't we examine the other side? Well for starters, if Republicans are interested at all...they either don't understand the problem or see only the easy solution of more police. Democrats want these people to vote for them, so they can't actually scrutinize the half of the problem that possibly contains the problem. What's worse, any real solutions are likely slow and will take years to solve, and that's not going to help you get reelected. You're going to tell the people who are complaining that the problem lies with them? And it's going to be a slow process that takes years to dig them out of the cycle of violence and poverty? Now vote for me? Democratic candidates are cowards, but they aren't stupid. That's not an easy sell.

So they don't try.

Anyway, I'm clearly seen as racist on here by many people, but I don't think I am....so I can scrutinize the other half of the problem. After all, the black communities having these problems are people like everyone else, they make mistakes, they have problems. It's not all black people or even a majority, and since I don't have a lot of statistics....so a lot of this is going to be guesswork. I'm also not interested in delving into some blame game that extends into the far past....because I can't fix the past, and I'm interested in helping people now.

Ready? Here we go...don't quote me on these stats because I'm going off of memory.

1 in 3 black men ages 18-30 will do time in jail. Let's assume for a moment that this is because they are criminals and likely on their 2nd, 3rd, maybe 4th chance. Let's not assume it's because police are rahhhhcist!

Something like 70% of young black women are single mothers and that's not hard to understand if you know that....

Attitudes toward interracial relationships are more negative in the black community than any other community. Remember when we used to talk about racist white fathers angry when their daughter dated a black man? Well now, that's less common than black men and women who look down on interracial dating. That's one of many racist attitudes in the black community I'm not going to go into.

So if I just know that, I can start to make sense of something happening. The dating market for young black women is pretty messed up. They're choosing between a lot of young black men who are criminals and in and out of jail. The young black men have little reason to settle down into stable households and form families because they have a large group of black women available to them since 1 in three male competitors is in jail.

With this in mind, it's not hard to see what the downstream effects are. Those effects include an increased amount of contact with the police who keep disrupting the whole situation. Crime gets normalized in some communities. Multiple children with multiple fathers gets normalized. Without a stable home, mothers have to work multiple jobs and with no one to raise the boys, they join gangs and the cycle repeats. Again, I'm not interested in the string of causes in the past. Can't fix the past.

The problem is best looked at (assuming I'm correct) how do we keep these boys off the path of crime?

It's a tough problem. We'd have to look at ways of preventing this early. It's almost certainly going to be localized to these specific communities where crime is so endemic. I've seen things that are promising though....but they've never been well funded or widespread. They also really need to hit multiple aspects of the problem at the same time.

Things like...

Reading programs for young children.
The Dads against violence program where fathers stepped up to end violence in the school, why can't we fund that? Pay them.
After school programs of all sorts. Get them out of gangs, playing sports, after school. They learn teamwork, they settle disputes, they have an outlet for aggression, they learn winning and losing with the supervision of positive male role models. Make those programs everywhere in those communities.

We gotta help the single mothers too. Deincentivize having multiple children by multiple fathers. Get them better paying jobs or increase the wages at the jobs they have. Help them with the parenting....I don't know how to do this really.

Let's not forget the young black men already caught in a system of normalized crime. Pick the ones who seem to be genuinely trying to do the right thing, and simply keep making mistakes for easy money, and cut them deals where they stay out of jail if they stay employed and be fathers to their children.

Shocking. I'm certain this stuff can be examined. I'm sure the picture can be given more clarity. I'm pretty sure that won't happen though. I'll just be called racist....or told I'm victim blaming. That's ok.

Because those people are cowards. They engage in reactionary groupthink. They drop the position they held one moment, and adopt the opposite the next. They only want to signal which team they are on. Cowards afraid to have their own opinions or to say them.

But don't you know how hard that is? At least I've been told that.

While I think your ideas are a good start, I do believe there has to be a concerted effort within the schools starting at a young age teaching the value of staying in school, showing how those that do and get a good education do better. And for heaven sake, make sure these kids are getting enough help reading etc. like you said. They shouldn't be graduating with an 8th grade reading level. I'd put money into tutors as well.

Teaching responsibility in school is a good thing as well. Help kids see the rewards of their labor.

Sport programs are good, I'd like to see an expansion on trades as well. After school programs teaching more computer skills and trade skills that are actually effective in the work market. Something they can pursue after they graduate if they don't attend college. Something that will help them land a decent paying job.

I'd put money on the table for that.

I like the parenting assistance idea for single moms. Teaching kids the benefits of two parent intact homes I know is a moral issue. At least to some, but as an economic and societal issue it's hands down been proven to be of the best benefit to individuals and society as a whole. That cannot be argued. We have to tackle these things head on. And we have to start early.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I love it when you hold forth.

Look....I could be entirely wrong about all of that.

It would take a look of actual research to back up. I'm trying to conceptualize other plausible explanations from just a few stats.

I don't think anyone will do that research. If you think the problem actually lies with police....consider that despite 10 years of scrutiny, policy changes, and additional training....nothing changed.

If you look at the OP, it's about blaming the police for what they don't do. Not the things they do....the things they don't do.

Does that seem reasonable?