Guess what I found about the Sabbath ? YOU MUST READ THIS!!

[djconklin]

1) When the languages were made at the incident at the Tower of Babel the name of the seventh day was preserved as "sabbath."

Can you provide any evidence that the word "sabbath" even existed prior to the tower of babel?

The fact that it was in the languages--unless you would suggest that God snuck it into the languages at the time of the Tower of Babel. That's the ticket! Give them knowledge of something they never knew before!

2) The Israelites knew about the Sabbath a month before it was given in law.

When they learned about the sabbath in Exodus 16, why does it seem that they had never heard of it before?

Who said that they never knew of it before? In fact, the fact that it is mentioned in an off-hand sort of matter very strongly implies that they already knew what it was--they just didn't now how that gathering of the manna related to it.

3) The Sabbath command itself starts with the word "Remember" (which they obviously had already done)

Yup. There are two ways to view the word "remember":

(1) Remember something you've already done or seen in the past.
(2) Remember going forward something that I am telling you right now.
​

Since God had given the sabbath to the Israelites prior to Sinai, the word "remember" is quite appropriate.

And when did God give the Sabbath to the Israelites? If it was a recent event why does the commandment point back to Creation? If the Sabbath was only given to the Jews why didn't Christ say "the Sabbath was made for the Jews" vs "the Sabbath was made for man"? Non-Jews recognize the need to come away and rest one day a week--why do Gentiles need to rest if the Sabbath was only for the Jews? If the Sabbath was made for the Jews what about all those Jews before the Sinai event?

 

[Byfaithalone1]

The fact that it was in the languages--unless you would suggest that God snuck it into the languages at the time of the Tower of Babel. That's the ticket! Give them knowledge of something they never knew before!

Are you suggesting that every word that exists today was in existence at the tower of Babel? That no new concepts and words have been created since the tower of Babel? What is the Biblical basis for such a claim?


Did the terms "palm pilot," "television" and "truck" exist at the tower of Babel? Did the English language exist at the tower of Babel?

Who said that they never knew of it before?

Who said they did? The Israelites certainly did not seem to be aware of it in Exodus 16. God had to provide explicit instructions. And, even after receiving such instructions, they still screwed it up (consider the manna incident). They were explicitly told not to gather manna on the sabbath and still rationalized that it would be OK. What is the Biblical basis for believing that the children of Israel already knew of the sabbath?

In fact, the fact that it is mentioned in an off-hand sort of matter very strongly implies that they already knew what it was--they just didn't now how that gathering of the manna related to it.

They didn't know that it was unlawful to work on the sabbath? If so, then this clearly supports the possibility that the Israelites were largely unaware of the sabbath before Moses returned to Egypt.

And when did God give the Sabbath to the Israelites?

We can know for certain that, at least by Exodus 16, God had given the Israelites instruction relating to sabbath keeping.

If it was a recent event why does the commandment point back to Creation?

It also serves as a reminder of the exodus, a recent event.

If the Sabbath was only given to the Jews why didn't Christ say "the Sabbath was made for the Jews" vs "the Sabbath was made for man"?

Because He was speaking to jews.

Non-Jews recognize the need to come away and rest one day a week-why do Gentiles need to rest if the Sabbath was only for the Jews?

Please provide the basis for believing that non-jews recognize the need to come away and rest during the same 24-hour period each week.


Is Exodus 31 truth or error?

BFA

 

[Byfaithalone1]

how about this you quote gal tell us where you see a tempoary situration

Be happy to.

1You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
4Did you suffer so many things in vain--if indeed it was in vain?
5So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
6Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.
7Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.
8The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU."
9So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.
10For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM."
11Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."
12However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM."
13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us--for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE"--
14in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is only a man's covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it. 16Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.
17What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.
18For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.
19Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.
20Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one.
21Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.
22But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
24Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
26For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.
1Now I say, as long as the heir is a child, he does not differ at all from a slave although he is owner of everything, 2but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by the father.
3So also we, while we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental things of the world.
4But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,
5so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
6Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"
7Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.
8However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods.
9But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again?
10You observe days and months and seasons and years.
11I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.
12I beg of you, brethren, become as I am, for I also have become as you are. You have done me no wrong;
13but you know that it was because of a bodily illness that I preached the gospel to you the first time;
14and that which was a trial to you in my bodily condition you did not despise or loathe, but you received me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus Himself.
15Where then is that sense of blessing you had? For I bear you witness that, if possible, you would have plucked out your eyes and given them to me.
16So have I become your enemy by telling you the truth?
17They eagerly seek you, not commendably, but they wish to shut you out so that you will seek them.
18But it is good always to be eagerly sought in a commendable manner, and not only when I am present with you.
19My children, with whom I am again in labor until Christ is formed in you--
20but I could wish to be present with you now and to change my tone, for I am perplexed about you. 21Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman.
23But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise.
24This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar.
25Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.
26But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.
27For it is written,
"REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR;
BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR;
FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE
THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND."
28And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.
29But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also.
30But what does the Scripture say?
"CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON,
FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN." 31So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.
1It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
​

BFA

 

[djconklin]

Are you suggesting that every word that exists today was in existence at the tower of Babel? That no new concepts and words have been created since the tower of Babel?

Not even closely related to the topic at hand.

Who said that they never knew of it before?

Who said they did?

The fact that it is mentioned in passing as it were with no explanation of what it is indicates that they already knew about that the Sabbath--what theye didn't know is how the collecting of the manna realated to it.

The Israelites certainly did not seem to be aware of it in Exodus 16.

See previous answer.

God had to provide explicit instructions.

Only on how the collecting of teh manna related to the sabbath.

And, even after receiving such instructions, they still screwed it up (consider the manna incident). They were explicitly told not to gather manna on the sabbath and still rationalized that it would be OK.

And you expected instant and immaculate obedience from ex-slaves?

In fact, the fact that it is mentioned in an off-hand sort of matter very strongly implies that they already knew what it was--they just didn't now how that gathering of the manna related to it.

They didn't know that it was unlawful to work on the sabbath?

You are assuming that they saw the collecting manna was work.

If so, then this clearly supports the possibility that the Israelites were largely unaware of the sabbath before Moses returned to Egypt.

Actually, prior to this we have Pharoah telling Moses that he is telling the people to rest from their work; this would seem to be a veiled reference to the Sabbath.

And when did God give the Sabbath to the Israelites?

We can know for certain that, at least by Exodus 16, God had given the Israelites instruction relating to sabbath keeping.

The problem with this view is that there is no command to keep the Sabbath; just how the collecting of manna relates to the Sabbath. There is also no reference as to why they should keep the Sabbath--which undercuts any notion that it was given solely as a memorial to the Exodus.

If it was a recent event why does the commandment point back to Creation?

It also serves as a reminder of the exodus, a recent event.

In the second recounting of the Law, not the original, it refers back to the Exodus.

If the Sabbath was only given to the Jews why didn't Christ say "the Sabbath was made for the Jews" vs "the Sabbath was made for man"?

Because He was speaking to jews.

And he didn't know that the Gospel would be taken to the Gentiles? Secondly, we know from two 5th century historians that most Christians even as late as then were still keeping the Sabbath (when the church was mostly Gentile).

Non-Jews recognize the need to come away and rest one day a week-why do Gentiles need to rest if the Sabbath was only for the Jews?

Please provide the basis for believing that non-jews recognize the need to come away and rest during the same 24-hour period each week.

I didn't say "same." Back when the French Revolution (10-day week) and the Communists in Russia (6 day week) changed their calenders they found that a didn't work. So, they went back to a 7-day week.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Not even closely related to the topic at hand.[/size][/font]

The fact that it is mentioned in passing as it were with no explanation of what it is indicates that they already knew about that the Sabbath--what theye didn't know is how the collecting of the manna realated to it.

See previous answer.

Only on how the collecting of teh manna related to the sabbath.

And you expected instant and immaculate obedience from ex-slaves?

You are assuming that they saw the collecting manna was work.[/size][/font]

Actually, prior to this we have Pharoah telling Moses that he is telling the people to rest from their work; this would seem to be a veiled reference to the Sabbath.

The problem with this view is that there is no command to keep the Sabbath; just how the collecting of manna relates to the Sabbath. There is also no reference as to why they should keep the Sabbath--which undercuts any notion that it was given solely as a memorial to the Exodus.

In the second recounting of the Law, not the original, it refers back to the Exodus.

And he didn't know that the Gospel would be taken to the Gentiles? Secondly, we know from two 5th century historians that most Christians even as late as then were still keeping the Sabbath (when the church was mostly Gentile).[/size][/font]

I didn't say "same." Back when the French Revolution (10-day week) and the Communists in Russia (6 day week) changed their calenders they found that a didn't work. So, they went back to a 7-day week.[/size][/font][/size][/font]

Since your post relates to Exodus 16, let's look at what it actually says:

1Then they set out from Elim, and all the congregation of the sons of Israel came to the wilderness of Sin, which is between Elim and Sinai, on the fifteenth day of the second month after their departure from the land of Egypt.

2The whole congregation of the sons of Israel grumbled against Moses and Aaron in the wilderness.
3The sons of Israel said to them, "Would that we had died by the LORD'S hand in the land of Egypt, when we sat by the pots of meat, when we ate bread to the full; for you have brought us out into this wilderness to kill this whole assembly with hunger."
4Then the LORD said to Moses, "Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a day's portion every day, that I may test them, whether or not they will walk in My instruction.
5"On the sixth day, when they prepare what they bring in, it will be twice as much as they gather daily."
6So Moses and Aaron said to all the sons of Israel, "At evening you will know that the LORD has brought you out of the land of Egypt;
7and in the morning you will see the glory of the LORD, for He hears your grumblings against the LORD; and what are we, that you grumble against us?" 8Moses said, "This will happen when the LORD gives you meat to eat in the evening, and bread to the full in the morning; for the LORD hears your grumblings which you grumble against Him. And what are we? Your grumblings are not against us but against the LORD."

9Then Moses said to Aaron, "Say to all the congregation of the sons of Israel, 'Come near before the LORD, for He has heard your grumblings.'"
10It came about as Aaron spoke to the whole congregation of the sons of Israel, that they looked toward the wilderness, and behold, the glory of the LORD appeared in the cloud.
11And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying,
12"I have heard the grumblings of the sons of Israel; speak to them, saying, 'At twilight you shall eat meat, and in the morning you shall be filled with bread; and you shall know that I am the LORD your God.'"
13So it came about at evening that the quails came up and covered the camp, and in the morning there was a layer of dew around the camp.
14When the layer of dew evaporated, behold, on the surface of the wilderness there was a fine flake-like thing, fine as the frost on the ground.
15When the sons of Israel saw it, they said to one another, "What is it?" For they did not know what it was. And Moses said to them, "It is the bread which the LORD has given you to eat.
16"This is what the LORD has commanded, 'Gather of it every man as much as he should eat; you shall take an omer apiece according to the number of persons each of you has in his tent.'"
17The sons of Israel did so, and some gathered much and some little.
18When they measured it with an omer, he who had gathered much had no excess, and he who had gathered little had no lack; every man gathered as much as he should eat.
19Moses said to them, "Let no man leave any of it until morning."
20But they did not listen to Moses, and some left part of it until morning, and it bred worms and became foul; and Moses was angry with them.
21They gathered it morning by morning, every man as much as he should eat; but when the sun grew hot, it would melt. 22Now on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for each one When all the leaders of the congregation came and told Moses,

23then he said to them, "This is what the LORD meant: Tomorrow is a sabbath observance, a holy sabbath to the LORD Bake what you will bake and boil what you will boil, and all that is left over put aside to be kept until morning."
24So they put it aside until morning, as Moses had ordered, and it did not become foul nor was there any worm in it.
25Moses said, "Eat it today, for today is a sabbath to the LORD; today you will not find it in the field.
26"Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the sabbath, there will be none."
27It came about on the seventh day that some of the people went out to gather, but they found none.
28Then the LORD said to Moses, "How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My instructions?
29"See, the LORD has given you the sabbath; therefore He gives you bread for two days on the sixth day. Remain every man in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day."
30So the people rested on the seventh day.
31The house of Israel named it manna, and it was like coriander seed, white, and its taste was like wafers with honey.
32Then Moses said, "This is what the LORD has commanded, 'Let an omerful of it be kept throughout your generations, that they may see the bread that I fed you in the wilderness, when I brought you out of the land of Egypt.'"
33Moses said to Aaron, "Take a jar and put an omerful of manna in it, and place it before the LORD to be kept throughout your generations."
34As the LORD commanded Moses, so Aaron placed it before the Testimony, to be kept.
35The sons of Israel ate the manna forty years, until they came to an inhabited land; they ate the manna until they came to the border of the land of Canaan. 36(Now an omer is a tenth of an ephah.)
​

Moses had to train the Israelites, saying, "tomorrow is a sabbath observance."

After the sabbath had been observed the first time, Moses indicated "the Lord has given you the sabbath."

There is nothing in Exodus 16 to suggest that the children of Israel already knew about the sabbath and had been keeping it prior to Exodus 16.

BFA

 

[dragNdrop]

BFA, I like the verse you've quoted which states that God spoke to Israel saying:

"See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath..." Exod 16:29.

Then we can than ask, how would God say he has given a single nation (Israel) something that was universal or applicable since Adam ?

It is the REAL issues like these I wanted us to bring up sothat we may find the full picture of what the bible says on this subject. I have posted another thread on COL 2:16 and the bible evidence that this verse abolishes the Sabbath.

My greatest source of confusion is why did God then ordain the Sabbath before sin (Gen 2:1-3). If I can find a solid bible answer to that question, given all that I've learnt o this subject I'll stop keeping the Sabbath.

 

[djconklin]

My greatest source of confusion is why did God then ordain the Sabbath before sin (Gen 2:1-3).

Where's the problem?

 

[djconklin]

Moses had to train the Israelites, saying, "tomorrow is a sabbath observance."

After the sabbath had been observed the first time, Moses indicated "the Lord has given you the sabbath."

There is nothing in Exodus 16 to suggest that the children of Israel already knew about the sabbath and had been keeping it prior to Exodus 16.

The training lies in what it means relative to the collecting of the manna.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

The training lies in what it means relative to the collecting of the manna.

If the Israelites had been keeping the sabbath for centuries, why would Moses need to say, "tomorrow is a sabbath observance?"

If the Israelites had been keeping the sabbath for centuries, why would Moses say "the Lord has given you the sabbath" shortly after saying "tomorrow is a sabbath observance."

You previously claimed that Exodus 16 demonstrates that the Israelites had always known of the sabbath, but the passage does not seem to confirm this claim.

BFA

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Guys I Am Just Searching For The Truth. I Am Not Interested In Arguments And Vendetas

This is a fair statement, and one that I want to thank you for. Unfortunately, as you can tell, this topic seems to elicit a passionate response.

Ultimately, the important issue for me is not whether you observe the sabbath (I have no concerns one way or another on that point). The issue relates to whether or not the sabbath is (or will be) salvational. That is the issue that I'm passionate about.

BFA, I like the verse you've quoted which states that God spoke to Israel saying:

"See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath..." Exod 16:29.

Then we can than ask, how would God say he has given a single nation (Israel) something that was universal or applicable since Adam?

Agreed. And I hardly think that Exodus 16 is persuasive in and of itself. However, when we also read Exodus 31 and Deuteronomy 5, we begin to realize that there was a reason why the sabbath was specifically meaningful to Israelites.

When I first began studying this subject, I was defending the sabbatarian position. However, when I read the arguments made by sabbatarians, I slowly began to realize that there was little (and often no) Biblical basis for them. The arguments were built upon assumptions, and when you asked for the underlying support for the assumption, none could be offered. The SDA view of Exodus 16 is merely one example of this.

It is the REAL issues like these I wanted us to bring up sothat we may find the full picture of what the bible says on this subject. I have posted another thread on COL 2:16 and the bible evidence that this verse abolishes the Sabbath.

I encourage you to read Leviticus 23, as it provides further insight into the SDA claim that "sabbaths" do not include "the weekly sabbath." Further, consider the many ways in which the sabbath is intertwined with practices that SDAs view as "ceremonial." For example, an instrumental part of the observance of the weekly sabbath was burnt offerings. If you do a word search for "sabbath" in the old testament, you will find that the weekly sabbath is directly tied to such ceremonial practices as shewbread, frankinsence, new moons, the seventh year rest, burnt offerings, other sabbaths/holy convocations, etc. I can point you to some relevant texts if you're interested.

My greatest source of confusion is why did God then ordain the Sabbath before sin (Gen 2:1-3). If I can find a solid bible answer to that question, given all that I've learnt o this subject I'll stop keeping the Sabbath.

I have yet to find any Biblical basis for believing that the sabbath was given by God to man prior to sin. One must make assumptions in order to reach this conclusion. I am retiscent to build an entire system of belief on assumptions.

However, even if God gave the sabbath to man before sin, why does this mean that the sabbath was meant to be universal and eternal? God gave Adam and Eve another command prior to sin (i.e. the tree of the knowledge of good and evil) that was neither universal nor eternal.

BFA

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

However, even if God gave the sabbath to man before sin, why does this mean that the sabbath was meant to be universal and eternal?

Good point. The Sabbath does not stand or fall based on whether it existed before sin.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Actually,

Galatians 3 indicates that the law was added because of "transgressions." Since the law was added, we cannot conclude that it had always been. Therefore, transgressions must relate to something other than the law.

this is just terrible Logic. listen seriously to yourself. you make absoloutely no sense. your own answer canceld out your question. do you not understand that in genesis that when God said "let there be....." that was his command and his will, his law? The garden of Eden was his will, what he wanted, that is the ideal. Any violation of that is sin. Genesis show the departure from God's will, it show the will existed and man rebelled. the law was written so no one could say "who said you couldn't do....., Where is it written. how are you to tell me.... There is no God.....I can't see him. " Can you see this happening? the bible says the law was given for the transgressor. for those who wanted to willfully rebell. it was reminder to them of Judgment. haven't you noticed when the law was given, after the flood where there was no garden. after nations were abandoining God and oppressing people. Haven't your read that the Jews were the "keepers of the Oracels of God? what dose that mean? if they were keeping dosen't that show existance prior to the giving? How can you keep something that does not exist? Is Sabbath was one of those oracles.?

The answer to all of these questions is clear. Sin exists even in the absence of written law. All wrong doing is sin. Every man who knows to do right and does it not, to him it is sin.​

but what is your standard , except God him self and what he says and does.​

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Actually, this is just terrible Logic. listen seriously to yourself. you make absoloutely no sense.

Was the law added, or has it always been?

but what is your standard , except God him self and what he says and does.

You've answered your own question. The Spirit convicts with respect to sin and righteousness and judgment.

BFA

 

[djconklin]

Was the law added,

How can a law that points out transgressions be aded after the transgressions--unless, of course, Paul is talking about a different law.

 

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by djconklin

The training lies in what it means relative to the collecting of the manna.​

If the Israelites had been keeping the sabbath for centuries, why would Moses need to say, "tomorrow is a sabbath observance?"​

In context (look at the rest of the verse) what Moses is saying is that _because_ tommorrow is "the rest of the holy sabbath" you need to bake what you have gathered and it will keep for tommorrow, unlike yesterday.

If the Israelites had been keeping the sabbath for centuries,

Who said that?

why would Moses say "the Lord has given you the sabbath"

Read the rest of the verse.

You previously claimed that Exodus 16 demonstrates that the Israelites had always known of the sabbath, but the passage does not seem to confirm this claim.

Unless I misspoke, I'm pretty sure I never said that.
​

 

[djconklin]

However, when I read the arguments made by sabbatarians, I slowly began to realize that there was little (and often no) Biblical basis for them.

Sheer baloney.

I encourage you to read Leviticus 23, as it provides further insight into the SDA claim that "sabbaths" do not include "the weekly sabbath."

But, if you don't know what inclusios are or how they work you'll never understand the chapter.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Sheer baloney. But, if you don't know what inclusios are or how they work you'll never understand the chapter.

The term "inclusio" is man-made. It was created to bolster a man-made opinion. It has no basis in the text itself. Here's what the text has to say:

"1The LORD spoke again to Moses, saying,

2"Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, 'The LORD'S appointed times which you shall proclaim as holy convocations--My appointed times are these:
3'For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, a holy convocation. You shall not do any work; it is a sabbath to the LORD in all your dwellings.
4'These are the appointed times of the LORD, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at the times appointed for them.
5'In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight is the LORD'S Passover.
6'Then on the fifteenth day of the same month there is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the LORD; for seven days you shall eat unleavened bread.
7'On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall not do any laborious work.
8'But for seven days you shall present an offering by fire to the LORD. On the seventh day is a holy convocation; you shall not do any laborious work.'"
9Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying,
10"Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, 'When you enter the land which I am going to give to you and reap its harvest, then you shall bring in the sheaf of the first fruits of your harvest to the priest.
11'He shall wave the sheaf before the LORD for you to be accepted; on the day after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.
12'Now on the day when you wave the sheaf, you shall offer a male lamb one year old without defect for a burnt offering to the LORD.
13'Its grain offering shall then be two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil, an offering by fire to the LORD for a soothing aroma, with its drink offering, a fourth of a hin of wine.
14'Until this same day, until you have brought in the offering of your God, you shall eat neither bread nor roasted grain nor new growth. It is to be a perpetual statute throughout your generations in all your dwelling places.
15'You shall also count for yourselves from the day after the sabbath, from the day when you brought in the sheaf of the wave offering; there shall be seven complete sabbaths.
16'You shall count fifty days to the day after the seventh sabbath; then you shall present a new grain offering to the LORD.
17'You shall bring in from your dwelling places two loaves of bread for a wave offering, made of two-tenths of an ephah; they shall be of a fine flour, baked with leaven as first fruits to the LORD.
18'Along with the bread you shall present seven one year old male lambs without defect, and a bull of the herd and two rams; they are to be a burnt offering to the LORD, with their grain offering and their drink offerings, an offering by fire of a soothing aroma to the LORD.
19'You shall also offer one male goat for a sin offering and two male lambs one year old for a sacrifice of peace offerings.
20'The priest shall then wave them with the bread of the first fruits for a wave offering with two lambs before the LORD; they are to be holy to the LORD for the priest.
21'On this same day you shall make a proclamation as well; you are to have a holy convocation You shall do no laborious work. It is to be a perpetual statute in all your dwelling places throughout your generations.
22'When you reap the harvest of your land, moreover, you shall not reap to the very corners of your field nor gather the gleaning of your harvest; you are to leave them for the needy and the alien. I am the LORD your God.'"
23Again the LORD spoke to Moses, saying,
24"Speak to the sons of Israel, saying, 'In the seventh month on the first of the month you shall have a rest, a reminder by blowing of trumpets, a holy convocation.
25'You shall not do any laborious work, but you shall present an offering by fire to the LORD.'" 26The LORD spoke to Moses, saying,

27"On exactly the tenth day of this seventh month is the day of atonement; it shall be a holy convocation for you, and you shall humble your souls and present an offering by fire to the LORD.
28"You shall not do any work on this same day, for it is a day of atonement, to make atonement on your behalf before the LORD your God.
29"If there is any person who will not humble himself on this same day, he shall be cut off from his people.
30"As for any person who does any work on this same day, that person I will destroy from among his people.
31"You shall do no work at all. It is to be a perpetual statute throughout your generations in all your dwelling places.
32"It is to be a sabbath of complete rest to you, and you shall humble your souls; on the ninth of the month at evening, from evening until evening you shall keep your sabbath."
33Again the LORD spoke to Moses, saying,
34"Speak to the sons of Israel, saying, 'On the fifteenth of this seventh month is the Feast of Booths for seven days to the LORD.
35'On the first day is a holy convocation; you shall do no laborious work of any kind.
36'For seven days you shall present an offering by fire to the LORD On the eighth day you shall have a holy convocation and present an offering by fire to the LORD; it is an assembly. You shall do no laborious work.
37'These are the appointed times of the LORD which you shall proclaim as holy convocations, to present offerings by fire to the LORD--burnt offerings and grain offerings, sacrifices and drink offerings, each day's matter on its own day--
38besides those of the sabbaths of the LORD, and besides your gifts and besides all your votive and freewill offerings, which you give to the LORD.
39'On exactly the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when you have gathered in the crops of the land, you shall celebrate the feast of the LORD for seven days, with a rest on the first day and a rest on the eighth day.
40'Now on the first day you shall take for yourselves the foliage of beautiful trees, palm branches and boughs of leafy trees and willows of the brook, and you shall rejoice before the LORD your God for seven days.
41'You shall thus celebrate it as a feast to the LORD for seven days in the year. It shall be a perpetual statute throughout your generations; you shall celebrate it in the seventh month.
42'You shall live in booths for seven days; all the native-born in Israel shall live in booths,
43so that your generations may know that I had the sons of Israel live in booths when I brought them out from the land of Egypt. I am the LORD your God.'" 44So Moses declared to the sons of Israel the appointed times of the LORD.
​

If there is such a thing as an "inclusio," it runs from Verse 1 through 44.

BFA

 

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by djconklin

Sheer baloney. But, if you don't know what inclusios are or how they work you'll never understand the chapter./quote]
​

The term "inclusio" is man-made. It was created to bolster a man-made opinion. It has no basis in the text itself. Here's what the text has to say:
​

1 "The LORD spoke again to Moses, saying,
2 "Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, 'The LORD'S appointed times which you shall proclaim as holy convocations--My appointed times are these:
3 For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, a holy convocation. You shall not do any work; it is a sabbath to the LORD in all your dwellings.
4 These are the appointed times of the LORD, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at the times appointed for them.
​

{edited the text a bit} Yes, the term is man-made, so are the terms "chiasm," "monogamy" and "trinity."

The inclusio is a literary construct. Since the Bible was written by man and not by God, one could on that basis claim it was man-made. Since the inclusio is a literary construct designed to aid in the memorization of the text and to aid the understanding of the text, then one could claim that it was man-made. But, to proceed further and claim that it was "to bolster a man-made opinion" and "no basis in the text itself" is sheer nonsense. That would get one a "F" in any paper in Engish literature. Thank you very much for providing the very evidence that directly undercuts this absurd notion.

If there is such a thing as an "inclusio," it runs from Verse 1 through 44.

Interesting notion; unfortunately there is no direct counterpart to verse 44 in verse 1. If there had been then you'd have an inlusio inside of an inclusio.
​

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Interesting notion; unfortunately there is no direct counterpart to verse 44 in verse 1. If there had been then you'd have an inlusio inside of an inclusio.

There is a direct correlation between Verse 2 and Verse 44.

BFA

 

[djconklin]

Hmm, which story is it:

Story a from post #57: "If there is such a thing as an "inclusio," it runs from Verse 1 through 44."

or story b from post #59: "There is a direct correlation between Verse 2 and Verse 44."?

In any case here are the verses:

1 The LORD spoke again to Moses, saying,

2 "Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, 'The LORD'S appointed times which you shall proclaim as holy convocations--My appointed times are these:

44 So Moses declared to the sons of Israel the appointed times of the LORD.

As we can see Story a is pure fiction.

Story b only has "appointed times" (bolded) vs.

2 "Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, 'The LORD'S appointed times which you shall proclaim as holy convocations--My appointed times are these:

4 These are the appointed times of the LORD, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at the times appointed for them.

Verses 2 & 4 form an inclusio (a literary device to aid memory and call attention to what lies in between).