Guess what I found about the Sabbath ? YOU MUST READ THIS!!

[Byfaithalone1]

You admit that Jesus rested and sanctified the day. Why would Jesus sanctify a day when he did not intended for Adam and Eve to observe ?

I answered your question in this post.

Let's say Adam never sinned, what would become of this sanctified day?

God still rested on the seventh day of creation week, regardless of Adam and Eve's sin. It is in light of that rest that He sanctified the seventh day of creation week. You seem to assume that, because God sanctified the seventh day of creation week, He sanctified every seventh day thereafter. Certainly, you have now begun to see that this is merely an assumption, not a Biblical fact.
I have a couple of questions:

Q: Does God not know the end from the beginning?

Q: When the author of Genesis records each day of creation, why does he include "and there was evening and there was morning, the [__] day" for each the first six days, but fails to include this phrase at the end of the seventh day?
​

Now if we admit that Jesus sanctified the day before sin.

We do not agree that He sanctified EVERY seventh day before sin. I find no Biblical basis for this claim.

How can the cross wich is a sin solution replace an institution made before sin ?

Is Jesus Christ our source of rest?

You see if it was not for Gen 2:1-3 I wolud have long left the sabbath.

Honestly, it isn't my desire that you "leave the sabbath." I have no right to judge you regarding days that you set aside as special. Rather, I speak to the subject of the sabbath because the SDA denomination clearly connects it with salvation by teaching that the seal of God will be the sabbath and that non-sabbatarians will one day receive the mark of the beast.

I have no reason to object to a sabbatarian who:

• does not believe that his sabbath keeping will ever represent the "dividing wall" between the saved and the lost;
• understands that the mark of the beast is based upon WHO a man worships, not WHEN a man worships;
• understands that we have been sealed (past, not future tense) both by the Spirit and with the Spirit; and
• believes that salvation will always be by grace through faith and never by works.

BFA

 

[Adventist Dissident]

We're having a real debate already, for there is nothing in Scripture that confirms that man was observing a sabbath prior to Exodus 16. There are many assumptions, but Exodus 20:11 only tells us that Jesus rested and sanctified the day.

Note that creation is not the only reason that the sabbath was given to the Israelites.

BFA

uh, not true, the commandment were added because of willful violation of them. read glataians 3. willfull violation show prior standard

 

[Byfaithalone1]

uh, not true, the commandment were added because of willful violation of them. read glataians 3. willfull violation show prior standard

Actually, Galatians 3 indicates that the law was added because of "transgressions." Since the law was added, we cannot conclude that it had always been. Therefore, transgressions must relate to something other than the law.

Was the written law in existence when Eve ate the apple? Was it a sin for Eve to eat the apple? Why was it a sin?

Was the written law in existence when Cain killed Abel? Was it a sin for Cain to kill Abel? Why was it a sin?

Was the written law in existence when Abraham lied to Pharoah? Was it a sin for Abraham to lie to Pharoah? Why was it a sin?

Was the written law in existence when Potiphar's wife tempted Joseph? Would it have been a sin for Joseph to sleep with Potiphar's wife? Why would it have been a sin?
​

The answer to all of these questions is clear. Sin exists even in the absence of written law. All wrong doing is sin. Every man who knows to do right and does it not, to him it is sin.

BFA

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

All wrong doing is sin.

What defines right and wrong?

 

[Byfaithalone1]

What defines right and wrong?

Why do you ask what? Shouldn't the question be who? Only God is righteousness. There is only One who is good. If something is not of God, it is not righteousness.

According to John 14 and John 16, the Spirit convicts with respect to sin and righteousness and judgment.

BFA

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

According to John 14 and John 16, the Spirit convicts with respect to sin and righteousness and judgment.

How do we determine whether the spirit convicting us is God's Spirit or some other spirit?

 

[dragNdrop]

" And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it
he had rested from all his work which God created and made." Gen 2:3

“[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.” Exod 20:11[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif][/FONT]
NOTICE IN BOTH VERSES THAT IT WAS AFTER GOD RESTED ON THE 7TH DAY THAT HE DECIDED TO BLESS THE DAY.

You argument is that he only blessed that only 7th day and not all 7th days.
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
BFA, WHY WOULD GOD BLESS A DAY THAT WAS ALREADY PAST ?

Does it make sense for us to argue that God only blessed the first 7th day he had already rested on, the day that was past ?

Hence I am saying we should move to the more REAL debates on this issue.
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif][/FONT]
[/FONT]

 

[Avonia]

How do we determine whether the spirit convicting us is God's Spirit or some other spirit?

Do you have personal experience with either? If so, how did you perceive spirit?

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

My perception is fallible. God's Word is not.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

How do we determine whether the spirit convicting us is God's Spirit or some other spirit?

Consider these principles:

(1) His sheep hear and know His voice.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber. But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep. To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers. This figure of speech Jesus spoke to them, but they did not understand what those things were which He had been saying to them. So Jesus said to them again, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. he thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly. I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. He flees because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep. I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd. For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again This commandment I received from My Father." A division occurred again among the Jews because of these words. Many of them were saying, "He has a demon and is insane. Why do you listen to Him?" Others were saying, "These are not the sayings of one demon-possessed A demon cannot open the eyes of the blind, can he?"
​

(2) We do not have the authority to test God:

And Jesus answered and said to him, "It is said, 'YOU SHALL NOT PUT THE LORD YOUR GOD TO THE TEST." Luke 4:12
​

If you have concerns about whether or not you know God's voice, I would encourage you to get to know Him. When you know Him and He knows you, you will know His voice.

BFA

 

[Byfaithalone1]

" And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it
he had rested from all his work which God created and made." Gen 2:3

“[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.” Exod 20:11[/FONT]

NOTICE IN BOTH VERSES THAT IT WAS AFTER GOD RESTED ON THE 7TH DAY THAT HE DECIDED TO BLESS THE DAY.

You argument is that he only blessed that only 7th day and not all 7th days.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]BFA, WHY WOULD GOD BLESS A DAY THAT WAS ALREADY PAST ?[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Does it make sense for us to argue that God only blessed the first 7th day he had already rested on, the day that was past ?[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hence I am saying we should move to the more REAL debates on this issue.[/FONT]

I agree that there is no real debate here. The Bible simply doesn't confirm the things that sabbatarians believe. For example, you have made the claim that God blessed the seventh day after He rested. This claim cannot be confirmed in Scripture:

Young's Literal Translation: "God completeth by the seventh day His work which He hath made, and ceaseth by the seventh day from all His work which He hath made. And God blesseth the seventh day, and sanctifieth it, for in it He hath ceased from all His work which God had prepared for making.
​

There's nothing here to suggest that God blessed the seventh day of creation week after the seventh day of creation week had ended.

Q: What is the Biblical basis for believing that, in Genesis 2, God blessed all seventh days?

Q: What is the Biblical basis for believing that God rested on the 14th, the 21st and the 28th days?

Q: What is the Biblical basis for believing that Adam rested on the 7th, 14th, 21st or 28th days?

Q: What is your position with respect to the SDA denomination's teachings regarding the seal of God and the mark of the beast?
​

BFA

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

You didn't say how true sheep know His voice. Do they know because it lines up with what He has already told them, or because it feels right?

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1 John 4:1

And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mark 13:5,6

How many of those false prophets and the people they have deceived just "know" that the spirit they have is of God?
Really, if personal experience is of more importance than biblical fact, there was hardly a point in leaving the SDA church in the first place. Unless, maybe the problem was that instead of accepting EGW as the Spirit of Prophecy, you want to be your own "spirit of prophecy"?

 

[Byfaithalone1]

You didn't say how true sheep know His voice.

Indeed, I did. The sheep know His voice because they know the Shepherd. Notice what it says:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber. But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep. To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers. This figure of speech Jesus spoke to them, but they did not understand what those things were which He had been saying to them. So Jesus said to them again, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. he thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly. I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. He flees because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep. I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd. For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again This commandment I received from My Father." A division occurred again among the Jews because of these words. Many of them were saying, "He has a demon and is insane. Why do you listen to Him?" Others were saying, "These are not the sayings of one demon-possessed A demon cannot open the eyes of the blind, can he?"
​

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.1 John 4:1

You seem to imply that we are to test God. However, Christ is abundantly clear that we are not to test God. With this obvious disconnect in view, we should consider further the passage you cited, exploring more of its context:

"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world. You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world. They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them. We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error."
​

What are the spirits that we are to test? The spirit of truth and the spirit of error, not the Holy Spirit!!

Who are we to test? We are to test humans who claim to be prophets. Not the Holy Spirit (consider Eph. 4:30).

We are not to test God. His sheep need not do so, for they know Him and they His voice.

And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you: For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. Mark 13:5,6

Who is the "many" and the "they" in the following passage? Does "many" and "they" represent "humans" or "God." Pursuant to this passage, are we to test "humans" or "God?"

"Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when all these things are going to be fulfilled? And Jesus began to say to them, "See to it that no one misleads you. Many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He!' and will mislead many. When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be frightened; those things must take place; but that is not yet the end. For nation will rise up against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; there will be earthquakes in various places; there will also be famines. These things are merely the beginning of birth pangs. But be on your guard; for they will deliver you to the courts, and you will be flogged in the synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them. The gospel must first be preached to all the nations. When they arrest you and hand you over, do not worry beforehand about what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour; for it is not you who speak, but it is the Holy Spirit.
​

I love the emphasis that is placed in Scripture on the role of the Holy Spirit. It is He who convicts us with respect to sin and righteousness and judgment (John 16). How do you know whether words given you to speak are the words that are from the Holy Spirit? You will know because His sheep hear and know His voice because they know HIM!

How many of those false prophets and the people they have deceived just "know" that the spirit they have is of God?

You are talking about testing human prophets. That is not the same thing as testing God Himself. The former is appropriate, even necessary. God does not permit the latter. The sheep hear and know His voice because the sheep know the Shepherd.

Really, if personal experience is of more importance than biblical fact,

It isn't.

there was hardly a point in leaving the SDA church in the first place.

So your motivation is to convince me to return to SDAism? Why is that important to you? What does SDAism have that is important for my salvation?

Unless, maybe the problem was that instead of accepting EGW as the Spirit of Prophecy, you want to be your own "spirit of prophecy"?

As a justified person, I have received the Spirit. Do you think I am in need of more? What do I lack?

What does the Bible say?

BFA

 

[Avonia]

My perception is fallible. God's Word is not.

What I'm curious about is HOW you experience spirit - what is the mechanism?

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

What I'm curious about is HOW you experience spirit - what is the mechanism?

I confess ignorance about the "mechanism". I do know that the Holy Spirit always pointed me toward the Scriptures.

What are the spirits that we are to test? The spirit of truth and the spirit of error, not the Holy Spirit!!

Sometimes people confuse the two. There are counterfeits of the Holy Spirit out there. Jesus would not have warned his disciples of the danger of being deceived were it not possible for them to mistake some other spirit for the Holy Spirit. "Don't test the spirit" leads to a sort of circular reasoning really. You don't test the spirit because you believe it's from God, and you believe it's from God because you don't test it.

And Jesus answered and said to him, "It is said, 'YOU SHALL NOT PUT THE LORD YOUR GOD TO THE TEST." Luke 4:12

Now if you look at the account in Matthew and Luke, notice that when Satan tries to tempt Jesus, Jesus doesn't respond "the Holy Spirit tells me I shouldn't do that", He responds that the Scriptures tell Him He shouldn't do that. "It is said". Do you even realize that you're invoking the authority of the Law here? I might also suggest what it was that Satan was asking Him to do when He gave that response. It definitely was not testing personal experience against the Scriptures.

So your motivation is to convince me to return to SDAism? Why is that important to you?

I have no intention of ever going back to SDAism myself, and I certainly would not encourage you to do so. My point was that you were only able to leave SDAism because you didn't follow your own advice. You determined that the Testimonies of EGW were not in accordance with Scripture. You tested the "spirit of prophecy" and found it wanting. You would do well to apply that principle to whatever subjective experiences you may have, because just because they feel real, it doesn't mean they are. That however, requires submission to the the authority of Scripture, and yes, the Law. Especially in this lawless age, all to many have unfortunately seen God's Law as an instrument of bondage, but God did not give the Law for that purpose. God has a way of life that he has revealed to us in the Bible, and it works.

 

[Avonia]

I confess ignorance about the "mechanism". I do know that the Holy Spirit always pointed me toward the Scriptures.

(Just for the clarity of others, only the first quote in SOTKs post is from one of my posts.)

I appreciate your honesty.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

There are counterfeits of the Holy Spirit out there.

Note what the passage says:

"A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers."

"All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them."
​

These are promises that I take to the bank. I need not test God in order to know that He is God. In fact, I am specifically prohibited from doing so.

If you wish to test someone, test humans who claim to be prophets.

Jesus would not have warned his disciples of the danger of being deceived were it not possible for them to mistake some other spirit for the Holy Spirit.

When we are told to "test the spirits," we are specifically told to be on guard against humans. Never are we told to test God.

We are told to test "spirits," not "the Spirit."

"Don't test the spirit" leads to a sort of circular reasoning really. You don't test the spirit because you believe it's from God, and you believe it's from God because you don't test it.

There's no circular reasoning here. The sheep know and hear His voice. They need not test it. If they test anything, they test human prophets.

Now if you look at the account in Matthew and Luke, notice that when Satan tries to tempt Jesus, Jesus doesn't respond "the Holy Spirit tells me I shouldn't do that", He responds that the Scriptures tell Him He shouldn't do that. "It is said". Do you even realize that you're invoking the authority of the Law here? I might also suggest what it was that Satan was asking Him to do when He gave that response. It definitely was not testing personal experience against the Scriptures.

If we test human prophets, there is no question that the standard against which we are test them is the Bible, in its entirety.

We do not test the Spirit. Those who do clearly do not know His voice.

You determined that the Testimonies of EGW were not in accordance with Scripture.

Exactly correct. That is how one tests a human prophet.

This does not mean that one tests the Holy Spirit.

You tested the "spirit of prophecy" and found it wanting.

Indeed I did. I found it wanting because it did not measure up to Scripture.

You would do well to apply that principle to whatever subjective experiences you may have, because just because they feel real, it doesn't mean they are.

It seems that you have determined that my position is something other than what it is. The Spirit convicts men with respect to sin and righteousness and judgment--does He not?

That however, requires submission to the the authority of Scripture, and yes, the Law.

Even SDAs do not submit themselves to the law in its entirety.

Especially in this lawless age, all to many have unfortunately seen God's Law as an instrument of bondage,

Read Galatians 4-5.

but God did not give the Law for that purpose.

The role of the law was always intended to be temporary (see Galatians 3).

BFA

 

[Adventist Dissident]

The role of the law was always intended to be temporary (see Galatians 3).
[/QUOTE]how about this you quote gal 3 tell us where you see a tempoary situration

 

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by icedragon101

uh, not true, the commandment were added because of willful violation of them. read glataians 3. willfull violation show prior standard​

Actually, Galatians 3 indicates that the law was added because of "transgressions." Since the law was added, we cannot conclude that it had always been. Therefore, transgressions must relate to something other than the law.​

Which law was added? The ceremonial law was added because of transgressions (of a prior law, the 10C).
​

 

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by djconklin

I don't make stuff up, nor do I wing it. Nor, do I know of any reputable scholar in the field who would do such a thing.​

Oh, the simple things. You entirely missed the point of the post.​

Then it wouldn't be too hard to show me what I supposedly missed.
​