Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America stands with Ukraine over/against Russian Orthodox Church

[ArmyMatt]

For instance, Georgia was part of the MP, then the MP gave Georgia autocephaly in 1943, and then the CP issued it a separate Tomos in 1990. The CP did not need to give Georgia a separate Tomos of autocephaly, but it served to imply that the CP had the authority to do this. In an interview since 2018, CP Bartholomew gave the Georgian case as an example of exercizing his authority over the Orthodox Church. Fortunately, the Georgian issue did not cause a practical problem, because everyone agreed that Georgia was autocephalous.

plus originally Georgia was under Antioch, who gave them autocephaly centuries before they were assumed under Moscow.

 

[E.C.]

I wouldn't want to put down GOARCH as a "Hellenic Club". But the current conflict is still sad because I want the CP to do better.

The critical problem is not that GOARCH is Hellenic, but rather its usage of its supremacy ecclesiology to interfere in another jurisdiction. Apparently the CP had a supremacy doctrine since at least the early/mid 20th century when it took in Churches belonging to others' jurisdictions (eg. Finland) or gave them autocephaly (Georgia). This fact alone could be unsettling. But in all such cases, the Churches involved were able to come to an agreement.

For instance, Georgia was part of the MP, then the MP gave Georgia autocephaly in 1943, and then the CP issued it a separate Tomos in 1990. The CP did not need to give Georgia a separate Tomos of autocephaly, but it served to imply that the CP had the authority to do this. In an interview since 2018, CP Bartholomew gave the Georgian case as an example of exercizing his authority over the Orthodox Church. Fortunately, the Georgian issue did not cause a practical problem, because everyone agreed that Georgia was autocephalous.

Bartholomew did the same thing with the smaller autocephalous Churches of the former Eastern Bloc. I.e. Albania, Poland, and former Czechoslovakia even though they were all granted autocephaly in the 1920s and 1930s. In fact he threatened to revoke the autocephaly of the Czech Lands and Slovakia because they sided with the Russians in the Ukrainian Crisis.

My issue isn't that the GOARCH is Hellenic, but that its leadership and a good portion of the laity put Hellenism above Orthodoxy. Some great examples: Greek bishops who don't visit their growing English speaking missions because they don't use "enough Greek", priests who insist that converts must take the Greek versions of names vice English ones (Constantinos vs Constantine) when those converts don't have a single connection to Greek culture, how GOARCH inflates their numbers by counting all ethnic Greeks in their total numbers and not just those who are practicing Christians, or a friend of mine who was Melkite Catholic and was going to convert to marry her Greek Orthodox boyfriend but he broke it off once his spiritual father discovered she wasn't Greek and demanded that he end the relationship lest he ruin the "purity" of the Greek gene-pool or, and this is a true story from Hawaii: a Greek family which broke up their Greek child's engagement because she was going to marry a non-Greek who was a practicing Orthodox Christian and instead insisted that she marry a Greek Jew who came by the church strictly for the cultural activities.

But the one that takes the cake: the EP himself telling the bishop of the Russian Parisian diocese that "you are not there missionary work, you are only there to serve the Greek diaspora" forgetting the fact that that diocese was started by White Russian emigres and, contrary to the Greek dioceses, actually grew because of conversions and not an increasing birthrate.

So, when I refer to GOARCH as a Hellenic Club I'm simply calling it for what it is. If it walks and quacks like a duck....

 

[Justin-H.S.]

The original Greeks who started our parish stopped regular attendance in 2020. Now, it's mostly convert families that regularly fill the nave. Even so, we still have 3 or 4 of the original Greeks that show up, but for the most part our GOA parish has been transformed into a convert parish. Our priest is not Greek either, but they (priest and chanters) do throw out some Greek here and there.

It's sad because before 2020 the elderly Greeks loved seeing children attending the services, but sadly now many of them avoid the services because children carry diseases.

 

[truefiction1]

The original Greeks who started our parish stopped regular attendance in 2020. Now, it's mostly convert families that regularly fill the nave. Even so, we still have 3 or 4 of the original Greeks that show up, but for the most part our GOA parish has been transformed into a convert parish. Our priest is not Greek either, but they (priest and chanters) do throw out some Greek here and there.

It's sad because before 2020 the elderly Greeks loved seeing children attending the services, but sadly now many of them avoid the services because children carry diseases.

Maybe they were never really in Church all the times before 2020, but only their bodies were present.

 

[rakovsky]

a friend of mine who was Melkite Catholic and was going to convert to marry her Greek Orthodox boyfriend but he broke it off once his spiritual father discovered she wasn't Greek and demanded that he end the relationship lest he ruin the "purity" of the Greek gene-pool

Was she going to convert to Orthodoxy?
I hear Albinos have a pretty pure gene pool.

or, and this is a true story from Hawaii: a Greek family which broke up their Greek child's engagement because she was going to marry a non-Greek who was a practicing Orthodox Christian and instead insisted that she marry a Greek Jew who came by the church strictly for the cultural activities.

Maybe there was a financial issue or something else like that.

These two instances below remind me of the Ottoman Millet system that categorized Greeks vs nonGreeks based on religion, and also banned evangelization of non-Christians. I wouldn't be surprised if Turkey had some policy, official or unofficial, against the CP evangelizing Turks despite Turkey being supposedly secular. Lebanon (About 40 percent Christian) has a law on the books against proselytism, if I'm not mistaken, and the Israeli State and the Palestinian Authority do too.

GOARCH inflates their numbers by counting all ethnic Greeks in their total numbers and not just those who are practicing Christians
...
But the one that takes the cake: the EP himself telling the bishop of the Russian Parisian diocese that "you are not there missionary work, you are only there to serve the Greek diaspora" forgetting the fact that that diocese was started by White Russian emigres and, contrary to the Greek dioceses, actually grew because of conversions and not an increasing birthrate.

 

[Dorothea]

Bartholomew did the same thing with the smaller autocephalous Churches of the former Eastern Bloc. I.e. Albania, Poland, and former Czechoslovakia even though they were all granted autocephaly in the 1920s and 1930s. In fact he threatened to revoke the autocephaly of the Czech Lands and Slovakia because they sided with the Russians in the Ukrainian Crisis.

My issue isn't that the GOARCH is Hellenic, but that its leadership and a good portion of the laity put Hellenism above Orthodoxy. Some great examples: Greek bishops who don't visit their growing English speaking missions because they don't use "enough Greek", priests who insist that converts must take the Greek versions of names vice English ones (Constantinos vs Constantine) when those converts don't have a single connection to Greek culture, how GOARCH inflates their numbers by counting all ethnic Greeks in their total numbers and not just those who are practicing Christians, or a friend of mine who was Melkite Catholic and was going to convert to marry her Greek Orthodox boyfriend but he broke it off once his spiritual father discovered she wasn't Greek and demanded that he end the relationship lest he ruin the "purity" of the Greek gene-pool or, and this is a true story from Hawaii: a Greek family which broke up their Greek child's engagement because she was going to marry a non-Greek who was a practicing Orthodox Christian and instead insisted that she marry a Greek Jew who came by the church strictly for the cultural activities.

But the one that takes the cake: the EP himself telling the bishop of the Russian Parisian diocese that "you are not there missionary work, you are only there to serve the Greek diaspora" forgetting the fact that that diocese was started by White Russian emigres and, contrary to the Greek dioceses, actually grew because of conversions and not an increasing birthrate.

So, when I refer to GOARCH as a Hellenic Club I'm simply calling it for what it is. If it walks and quacks like a duck....

How sad.

 

[E.C.]

Was she going to convert to Orthodoxy?

She was.

And she still is, but NOT with any parish remotely connected to the Greek Archdiocese.

Maybe there was a financial issue or something else like that.

Doubtful considering the family flat out told her that they will throw her out on the street if she dares marry any non-Greek. They flat out said they would rather she be married to an abusive Greek than the holiest non-Greek alive.

These two instances below remind me of the Ottoman Millet system that categorized Greeks vs nonGreeks based on religion, and also banned evangelization of non-Christians. I wouldn't be surprised if Turkey had some policy, official or unofficial, against the CP evangelizing Turks despite Turkey being supposedly secular. Lebanon (About 40 percent Christian) has a law on the books against proselytism, if I'm not mistaken, and the Israeli State and the Palestinian Authority do too.

The State of Israel does not, however, if you are a Jewish convert and change your ID card from being ethnically Jewish to ethnically Christian than life becomes difficult. The Palestinian Authority has killed Muslim converts to Christianity.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Doubtful considering the family flat out told her that they will throw her out on the street if she dares marry any non-Greek. They flat out said they would rather she be married to an abusive Greek than the holiest non-Greek alive.

Lord have mercy

 

[rakovsky]

She was.
The State of Israel does not, however, if you are a Jewish convert and change your ID card from being ethnically Jewish to ethnically Christian than life becomes difficult. The Palestinian Authority has killed Muslim converts to Christianity.

EC,
It's easy to get into the thinking that the SOI is a modern "western" US ally, so its policies are good and democratic, whereas the PA is mostly Muslim, so its policies must be harsh and theocratic. One problem is that this kind of logic can be quite deceiving, as for instance the US can have a strategic alliance that does not prove the nation's respect of democratic rights. Colombia and Singapore might serve as two cases in point.

When I doublechecked the information, it looks like the SOI only bans "proselytism" of those under 18 involving offering a material benefit. (SOURCE: www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2019/01).
I'm unaware of the mainstream, moderate Fata PA killing Christians, but it may have happened in Gaza under their more theocratic rivals. Calling the latter part of the PA would seem rather simplistic, even if it were technically true.

 

[E.C.]

EC,
It's easy to get into the thinking that the SOI is a modern "western" US ally, so its policies are good and democratic, whereas the PA is mostly Muslim, so its policies must be harsh and theocratic. One problem is that this kind of logic can be quite deceiving, as for instance the US can have a strategic alliance that does not prove the nation's respect of democratic rights. Colombia and Singapore might serve as two cases in point.

When I doublechecked the information, it looks like the SOI only bans "proselytism" of those under 18 involving offering a material benefit. (SOURCE: www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2019/01).
I'm unaware of the mainstream, moderate Fata PA killing Christians, but it may have happened in Gaza under their more theocratic rivals. Calling the latter part of the PA would seem rather simplistic, even if it were technically true.

It has been happening more and more in the West Bank as Hamas gains popularity and Fatah declines; as have targeted attacks against Christians in Bethlehem, Beit Jala, Ramallah (originally a Christian majority city), and Beit Sahour to name a few.

For all of Israel's faults and hypocrisy (תאמין אותי, אני קורא החדשות שלהם בעברית), it is the safest place in the Middle East for Christians. Two Orthodox priests in California who grew up in Haifa verified it. In more recent years there has been more Arab Israeli Christian millennials volunteering for military service as Arabs in general are not conscripted (except for the Druze). They're simply feeling themselves more like Israeli citizens and, well, quite a few of those rockets from Hezbollah and Hamas land in Christian homes as well.

Yes, outright proselyzation is banned, like it is in every other Middle Eastern country, but they won't execute the Jews who do convert to Christianity. Quite a few of the Russian Jews from the former USSR who immigrated there were and have converted to Orthodoxy, but used their Jewish backgrounds to get out of dodge first. I've met a few and they are very interesting people.

The overall situation within Israel is dependent where you are. Jerusalem and the territories will always be contentious and tense. Galilee it depends on how many rocket Hezbollah wants to launch. Tel Aviv is far too secular to care. Haifa is probably the most peaceful mixed city in the country. Nobody likes the Haredim and the Haredim don't like anyone. But, the secular Jews do love to visit churches and admire the artwork especially Orthodox churches.

 

[rako]

For all of Israel's faults it is the safest place in the Middle East for Christians.

It's neat that you know Hebrew.

One intrinsic problem is the SOI's self definition and categorizations. Whereas the US, EU, and Russia define themselves as states dedicated to all their ethnicities and not to any particular religion, the SOI defines itself as dedicated to one nationality, which it identifies in terms of religious heritage. In the immigration law for instance, it says that conversion to or conversion from Judaism determines whether one enters the nationality or leaves it, respectively. So in effect, nationality is defined in terms of belonging to a religious community, not in terms of ancestry per se.

The second problem is that around 30 percent of the SOI's native citizens do not belong to this community to which the state dedicates itself. Is this a situation whose foundational model engenders inequality and discrimination?

The third problem is that when the state was created in the 1940's, the state identified the Palestinians as Christian and Muslim. That is, if you and your ancestors were part of the Palestinian rabbinic community for centuries, the SOI would not count you as Palestinian.

The fourth problem is that the SOI exercises military control over the "Palestinian" territories conquered in 1967, and those territories have Christian refugees who lived within the 1967 borders before the creation of the SOI. So to say that Christians live great within the 1967 borders and leave the conversation there creates a false dichotomy.

So in effect, the comparison becomes: Is the generic category designated as Palestinians (native Christians and Muslims), as well as more recent converts to Christianity, safer under Israeli rule, both domestically and in the conquered territories, than Christians anywhere else in the Middle East?