Greece becomes first Orthodox Christian country to legalize same-sex marriage

[The Liturgist]

Oh good grief.

Yes I figured you’d take exception to that, but it is my firm conviction that ecclesiastical immunity must be restored, and it can be done without violating the establishment clause, or at least, without totally gutting the establishment clause, although frankly as is evident I would not be averse to totally gutting the establishment clause.

For that matter, I am not convinced the Lateran Treaty represents the correct legal settlement to the war crime committed against the Papal States by the Savoyard Monarchy in the 1860s, particularly since one could argue that Mussolini’s government was entirely illegitimate. It is my view that this territory ought to be returned to the Roman church, which, known Pope Francis, would likely give it back, although if he kept it I would admire such a move for its bravado, if nothing else. Now to be clear I take a dim view of the Papal States, but I still regard its removal from power as a war crime. And for that matter, I take a dim view of many historic sovereign governments, but having an ill opinion of a regime does not justify war crimes.

 

[The Liturgist]

I work with the natural law all the time. As a certified expert, I can tell you it is impossible to violate the laws of nature. (Attempting to do so can result in immediate and painful repercussions.)

I am not speaking of the natural sciences, which I can assure you I have the utmost respect for, as should be indicated by my agitation against those who try to advocate various conspiracy theories against science in the Scholastic community, but rather of the Scholastic philosophical concept of the Natural Law, which rather relates to intrinsic norms of human behavior and belongs to the realm of philosophy of law rather than any scientific field.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Yes I figured you’d take exception to that, but it is my firm conviction that ecclesiastical immunity must be restored, and it can be done without violating the establishment clause, or at least, without totally gutting the establishment clause, although frankly as is evident I would not be averse to totally gutting the establishment clause.

I'm sorry but the clergy aren't special. They are just people in the religion business. They don't need special immunity anymore than doctors, or lawyers, or therapists do to avoid the criminal code. (And you made it even more ridiculous by including lay people like alter servers and readers.)

For that matter, I am not convinced the Lateran Treaty represents the correct legal settlement to the war crime committed against the Papal States by the Savoyard Monarchy in the 1860s, particularly since one could argue that Mussolini’s government was entirely illegitimate. It is my view that this territory ought to be returned to the Roman church, which, known Pope Francis, would likely give it back, although if he kept it I would admire such a move for its bravado, if nothing else. Now to be clear I take a dim view of the Papal States, but I still regard its removal from power as a war crime. And for that matter, I take a dim view of many historic sovereign governments, but having an ill opinion of a regime does not justify war crimes.

And I go the other direction. I think the US should end its official recognition of the Vatican as a state and treat it as part of Italy.

 

[Hans Blaster]

I am not speaking of the natural sciences, which I can assure you I have the utmost respect for, as should be indicated by my agitation against those who try to advocate various conspiracy theories against science in the Scholastic community, but rather of the Scholastic philosophical concept of the Natural Law, which rather relates to intrinsic norms of human behavior and belongs to the realm of philosophy of law rather than any scientific field.

Philosophy and law scholarship? Doesn't sound like religion so I don't know why you included it in your theocracy demands.

 

[The Liturgist]

And I go the other direction. I think the US should end its official recognition of the Vatican as a state and treat it as part of Italy.

Well this need surprise no one.

 

[The Liturgist]

'm sorry but the clergy aren't special. They are just people in the religion business

Religion is not a business and to lay hands on a cleric without authorization from the Church is an act of sacrilege. Indeed St. Thomas Becket was martyred over this issue.

 

[RileyG]

Well this need surprise no one.

Why? The Vatican is its own separate country. It's not "part" of Italy, albeit in Italy. *shrugs* oh well

 

[RileyG]

Religion is not a business and to lay hands on a cleric without authorization from the Church is an act of sacrilege. Indeed St. Thomas Becket was martyred over this issue.

Religion is not a business, it's a relationship with God that shapes a person's whole worldview.

 

[The Liturgist]

Baloney. Or, more formally, that which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

@Ignatius the Kiwi provided evidence.

 

[BCP1928]

@Ignatius the Kiwi provided evidence.

He provided me with an opinion. A well-reasoned and interesting opinion to be sure, but still just an opinion.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Religion is not a business and to lay hands on a cleric without authorization from the Church is an act of sacrilege.

Sacrilege is not a civil matter (nor should it be). It is either criminal assault or it is not. The clergy status or non-status of the "victim" is not of any issue. (And religion is quite profitable, or perhaps you would prefer I had used the term "profession" instead.))

Indeed St. Thomas Becket was martyred over this issue.

Over what issue? I don't know about this person.

 

[dzheremi]

I'm sorry but the clergy aren't special. They are just people in the religion business. They don't need special immunity anymore than doctors, or lawyers, or therapists do to avoid the criminal code. (And you made it even more ridiculous by including lay people like alter servers and readers.)


And I go the other direction. I think the US should end its official recognition of the Vatican as a state and treat it as part of Italy.

I hope the irony of you not recognizing something due to your own atheism and therefore acting as though this means it isn't true period or ought not to be recognized by anyone isn't lost on you or anyone else in this thread who has acted as though it is crazy that believing Greek Orthodox Christians would not affirm gay marriage...

 

[Hans Blaster]

I hope the irony of you not recognizing something due to your own atheism and therefore acting as though this means it isn't true period or ought not to be recognized by anyone isn't lost on you or anyone else in this thread who has acted as though it is crazy that believing Greek Orthodox Christians would not affirm gay marriage...

That I think "Vatican City" shouldn't be recognized as a state is due to my atheism? I just don't think church HQ should be confused with a country. Or is it that I don't think clergy should get special privileges from the government. Both reflect my belief that churches make bad governments. (And likely the other way around.)

And no one said Christians of any kind can't be against something, we just don't think that churches should have control of policy.

 

[BCP1928]

I hope the irony of you not recognizing something due to your own atheism and therefore acting as though this means it isn't true period or ought not to be recognized by anyone isn't lost on you or anyone else in this thread who has acted as though it is crazy that believing Greek Orthodox Christians would not affirm gay marriage...

Have Greek Orthodox Christians affirmed gay marriage? My impression was that they disapproved of it but allowed it anyway.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

Over what issue? I don't know about this person.

Thomas Becket was the Archbishop of Canterbury in the late 1100s when Henry II instituted the Constitutions of Clarendon, a series of laws aimed at reducing the power of the Church in England. The main point of contention with the Church was the fact that clergy who committed a crime were subject only to the authority of the ecclesiastical courts, which generally imposed much less severe sentences for crimes (for example, they generally punished murder with defrocking - removal from the priesthood - rather than death or maiming, as the royal court did, as the spilling of blood by the ecclesiastical court was prohibited). The Constitutions decreed that, should a clergyman be defrocked, he was no longer under the protection of the Church and could thus be tried in the royal court.

Thomas Becket opposed these laws and was exiled over his opposition. He was eventually allowed to return after Henry negotiated the removal of the contentious clauses with the pope, but was assassinated after he excommunicated three bishops for crowning the heir apparent (and thus usurping the crowning authority of Canterbury). He was the "turbulent priest" that Henry II famously wanted rid of, which was interpreted as a royal decree (though is probably not exactly the wording he used - that line was invented in the 1700s).

 

[ThatRobGuy]

That's actually kind of surprising it's just now happening over there... For those familiar with some of the historical Greek art depicting some of the things that went on, you'd think Greece would've removed certain stigmas generations ago.

 

[RileyG]

That's actually kind of surprising it's just now happening over there... For those familiar with some of the historical Greek art depicting some of the things that went on, you'd think Greece would've removed certain stigmas generations ago.

What stigmas? Against homosexuals?

 

[ThatRobGuy]

What stigmas? Against homosexuals?

If you're familiar with greek history, that kind of activity was pretty normalized for a huge part of it, so it's surprising it's just now being legally recognized there.

It'd be sort of like if there were a hypothetical headline saying "Italy becomes first <XYZ type of> nation to legalize making your own wine at home"...such a headline would understandably lead someone to thinking "wait, with how prevalent wine is in the Italian food culture, that wasn't legal there already???"

 

[Chesterton]

If you're familiar with greek history, that kind of activity was pretty normalized for a huge part of it, so it's surprising it's just now being legally recognized there.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but even in pre-Christian Greece I don't believe people married their own sex.

 

[dzheremi]

Homosexuality in Ancient Greece often involved pederasty, did it not? So I wouldn't think that would be a very good argument to make if you are in favor of homosexuality in the modern day.