Gravity

[Cheeky Monkey]

Miracle: something that happens, without respect to raw nature.

Ok I understand the first part "something that happens". Something that happens means its real and is open to investigation through the evidence that an occurance leaves behind. If there's no evidence then there's no real justification for claiming it happened but I guess by the same token one might decide to believe it happened anyway even in the absence of evidence.
I don't understand the second part "without respect to raw nature"

 

[morningstar2651]

You mean like Israel?

No. It wasn't God that removed the British forces from Israel. That was the work of the United Nations.

The United Nations Partition Plan | Middle East Research and Information Project

tongues?

I'd give this conditional acceptance as a miracle. If someone who has no knowledge of the French language were to minister to a Frenchman in perfect French, then that would give me reason to believe that I may be witnessing a miracle and the situation would need further investigation.

People speaking gibberish doesn't count.

healings?

I'd also give this conditional acceptance as a miracle. If it's something that someone can get better from, like the cold, the flu, a headache, cancer (it can go into remission), then that has no need for a divine explanation. If an amputee grows a new foot, or the dead resurrect - then we have something to look into.

Most investigation of divine healings have instead uncovered fraud and abuse.

Knock yourself out; but don't expect to see evidence of a miracle jump out at you under scrutiny.

That's definitely not reassuring.

After all, many miracles, such as the return of Israel as prophesied, are "guided miracles," and "instant miracles" would be hard to prove, since only those in attendance could verify them.

"Guided miracles" don't sound all that miraculous by any definition of the term - including your own.

In fact, some miracles would go unnoticed, if not for the Holy Spirit making it known via the recipient's prayer closet.

If an amputee prayed for a new leg and received a new leg, then that's something that someone is going to notice.

I would like to expound on my buddy's point about the Big Bang being a miracle as well.

As you probably know, I don't believe in the Big Bang model; I believe in the creation events as told in Genesis 1.

BUT, for the record, this universe itself is a miracle of creation; but an unbeliever cannot tell that -- just like a fish doesn't know it's wet.

I didn't ask for miracles from the Bible. I asked for miracles outside of the Bible. We both know that holy books are full of miracles. I want to see a real life example of one - not just mentions of one in the Bible.

The events in Genesis are miraculous, but they aren't supported by evidence. Is this to say that Christians are fish that know they're wet? Sounds like a red herring to me...

So when the Rapture occurs, and [if] scientists explain it away as UFO abductions -- you'll be satisfied that it wasn't a miracle?

There will not be a rapture.

If you have any miracles that have happened that you'd like to share, then please do so. If it has never happened, like a rapture or a UFO abduction, then you probably shouldn't present it as an example.

 

[morningstar2651]

We can't consider miracles, unicorns, or wind resistance a variable without evidence that they exist. We have evidence that supports the existence of wind resistance. Unicorns and miracles are lacking in evidence.

 

[AV1611VET]

Ok I understand the first part "something that happens". Something that happens means its real and is open to investigation through the evidence that an occurance leaves behind. If there's no evidence then there's no real justification for claiming it happened but I guess by the same token one might decide to believe it happened anyway even in the absence of evidence.
I don't understand the second part "without respect to raw nature"

Okay, let's take a simple example.

Genesis 19:11 And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.

Jesus & the Holy Ghost are in Lot's house, and there are [men] outside trying to break in.

At this point, They smite the [men] with blindness.

Nature, by herself, would not have done this; but on command, these [mens'] optic nerves cease to function.

If one of these [men] were to be teleported here right now, I'm sure no doctor on earth could find the cause of their blindness.

 

[AV1611VET]

I'd give this conditional acceptance as a miracle. If someone who has no knowledge of the French language were to minister to a Frenchman in perfect French, then that would give me reason to believe that I may be witnessing a miracle and the situation would need further investigation.

And what if, under further investigation, the person cannot even burp in French?

What then?

Would you pass that off as a one-time miracle, or would you assume you are investigating a hoax?

 

[AV1611VET]

We can't consider miracles, unicorns, or wind resistance a variable without evidence that they exist.

I understand that ... and I call it myopia.

 

[Non sequitur]

Ya ... my point with MS is that, since he was born in this universe, and grew up in it, he can examine it all he wants, and he is not going to realize he is living inside of a miracle.

Or would he be able to realize that he isn't living inside a miracle.

Or could anybody.

 

[AV1611VET]

Or would he be able to realize that he isn't living inside a miracle.

No -- he may conclude that, but not realize it.

 

[Cheeky Monkey]

Okay, let's take a simple example.

Genesis 19:11 And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.

Jesus & the Holy Ghost are in Lot's house, and there are [men] outside trying to break in.

At this point, They smite the [men] with blindness.

Nature, by herself, would not have done this; but on command, these [mens'] optic nerves cease to function.

If one of these [men] were to be teleported here right now, I'm sure no doctor on earth could find the cause of their blindness.

Well there's no evidence on which to base the "something that happened" part of your definition.

 

[AV1611VET]

Well there's no evidence on which to base the "something that happened" part of your definition.

That's a miracle for ya!

 

[Non sequitur]

No -- he may conclude that, but not realize it.

Exactly.

He could conclude that he isn't and also not realize he isn't in a miracle.

Also, he could conclude he is and also not realize he isn't in a miracle.

It works all ways, not just the one that suits your purpose.

 

[Cheeky Monkey]

That's a miracle for ya!

Or not. Either way there's nothing that needs to be explained from my perspective. You have your Boolean standards but I have a more objective standard by which were I to accept that that miracle happened on the evidence presented, then by rights I should also accept miracles in the Koran, the Sutras, alien abductions, sightings of Bigfoot, pretty much any claim as long as someone said it was true.

 

[Justatruthseeker]

Exactly.

He could conclude that he isn't and also not realize he isn't in a miracle.

Also, he could conclude he is and also not realize he isn't in a miracle.

It works all ways, not just the one that suits your purpose.

Yes it does, but if you had scientific grounds to conclude that it was not a miracle, then one could accept that hypothesis. But what if ones very own math fails and one has no scientific explanation left? Does one then just dismiss what may not then be natural?

 

[Non sequitur]

Yes it does, but if you had scientific grounds to conclude that it was not a miracle, then one could accept that hypothesis. But what if ones very own math fails and one has no scientific explanation left? Does one then just dismiss what may not then be natural?

It could be either. That was my point.

AV likes to spin it his direction, thinking he made some knock-down point, but forgets it goes both ways.


Oh, he also likes to laugh it off when that happens.

Then, as a last resort will be some claim to "knowledge" about the truth. Usually in some passive-aggressive snarky way.


Let's wait and see...

 

[AV1611VET]

Or not. Either way there's nothing that needs to be explained from my perspective. You have your Boolean standards but I have a more objective standard by which were I to accept that that miracle happened on the evidence presented, then by rights I should also accept miracles in the Koran, the Sutras, alien abductions, sightings of Bigfoot, pretty much any claim as long as someone said it was true.

I stole your term, Hispid!

I like the term "heuristic," so I no longer have Boolean Standards, I have a set of heuristics I use!

I hope you don't mind!

 

[Cheeky Monkey]

I stole your term, Hispid!

I like the term "heuristic," so I no longer have Boolean Standards, I have a set of heuristics I use!

I hope you don't mind!

Not a problem. It's a word that deserves more use. "Rule of thumb" is too long to keep typing when one word will do

 

[HitchSlap]

Rod Stewart Infatuation - YouTube

 

[AV1611VET]

Not a problem. It's a word that deserves more use. "Rule of thumb" is too long to keep typing when one word will do

Sounds supercalifragilisticexpialidociously munchaliciouscrumptalectable to me!

Thanks!

 

[AV1611VET]

Rod Stewart Infatuation - YouTube

Um, at 0:17, why is the agent knocking on Rod's door, but if you look past him, he's already in the room!?

Looks like the Thalidomide crew might have been in charge of quality control here, eh?

 

[Cheeky Monkey]

Sounds supercalifragilisticexpialidociously munchaliciouscrumptalectable to me!

Thanks!

That's two words.