Gravity

[AV1611VET]

Exactly. That's why one does experiments, to reduce or control variables in order to see how the thing you're interested in works.

Can one experiment on the ultimate variable: miracles?

 

[AV1611VET]

Yet another 'scientific theory' debunked

Only by variables.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Can one experiment on the ultimate variable: miracles?

About as well as one can demand them.

 

[HitchSlap]

Only by variables.

Do you have an example of a miracle we can observe, or do we just have to take your word for it?

 

[Tomk80]

Sounds fair.

But you're not changing a variable in AV's example. The reason the feather hits the ground last is not because variables are changed, but because different variables have different effects.

 

[HitchSlap]

I don't much care for JM's singing but this rendition is awesome. And, man, can he play. Thanks for posting this.

You're welcome.

 

[Justatruthseeker]

Do you have an example of a miracle we can observe, or do we just have to take your word for it?

Ummm, the Big Bang, where a miracle started it all? And just why would a miracle be required once matter and life came into existence? I don't see how having free will equates to being directed by things that by definition have no deffinition??? We are all miracles by deffinition of the very word.

What dictionary you use?

 

[morningstar2651]

Can one experiment on the ultimate variable: miracles?

Can you show me a miracle outside of the Bible? Once you can, we can investigate it.

 

[Justatruthseeker]

Can you show me a miracle outside of the Bible? Once you can, we can investigate it.

See post right above yours, the Big Bang for starters.

 

[morningstar2651]

Ummm, the Big Bang, where a miracle started it all? And just why would a miracle be required once matter and life came into existence? I don't see how having free will equates to being directed by things that by definition have no deffinition??? We are all miracles by deffinition of the very word.

What dictionary you use?

The big bang is not a miracle.

My definition for a miracle is pretty narrow, and I feel it's one that many of my fellow posters (both Christian and atheist) will agree with.

A miracle is something that can only be explained by divine intervention. Water transforming into wine, the dead resurrecting, and amputees re-growing lost limbs are all examples of miracles. The Bible is full of them, but I have yet to see one outside of a holy book. They are things for which there is no logical scientific explanation.

The Big Bang, the eruption of volcanoes, the rising and lowering of tides are all things that science can explain. These aren't miracles since divine intervention isn't required for any of these to have happened.

 

[AV1611VET]

Can you show me a miracle outside of the Bible?

You mean like Israel? tongues? healings?

Once you can, we can investigate it.

Knock yourself out; but don't expect to see evidence of a miracle jump out at you under scrutiny.

After all, many miracles, such as the return of Israel as prophesied, are "guided miracles," and "instant miracles" would be hard to prove, since only those in attendance could verify them.

In fact, some miracles would go unnoticed, if not for the Holy Spirit making it known via the recipient's prayer closet.

I would like to expound on my buddy's point about the Big Bang being a miracle as well.

As you probably know, I don't believe in the Big Bang model; I believe in the creation events as told in Genesis 1.

BUT, for the record, this universe itself is a miracle of creation; but an unbeliever cannot tell that -- just like a fish doesn't know it's wet.

 

[AV1611VET]

They are things for which there is no logical scientific explanation.

So when the Rapture occurs, and [if] scientists explain it away as UFO abductions -- you'll be satisfied that it wasn't a miracle?

 

[Justatruthseeker]

You mean like Israel? tongues? healings?

Knock yourself out; but don't expect to see evidence of a miracle jump out at you under scrutiny.

After all, many miracles, such as the return of Israel as prophesied, are "guided miracles," and "instant miracles" would be hard to prove, since only those in attendance could verify them.

In fact, some miracles would go unnoticed, if not for the Holy Spirit making it known via the recipient's prayer closet.

I would like to expound on my buddy's point about the Big Bang being a miracle as well.

As you probably know, I don't believe in the Big Bang model; I believe in the creation events as told in Genesis 1.

BUT, for the record, this universe itself is a miracle of creation; but an unbeliever cannot tell that -- just like a fish doesn't know it's wet.

I don't think a fish knows it's a fish, let alone it's supposed to be wet but point taken. But man knows he is man.

I certainly don't ascribe to a Big Bang theory, it is clearly wrong, but it is both vastly old and young in the sense of life springing up after every destruction. I just don't think the Bible happened to mention those previous ones as they lacked the importance of the one set down that was recent after the destruction of what was before.

 

[AV1611VET]

I don't think a fish knows it's a fish, let alone it's supposed to be wet but point taken. But man knows he is man.

Ya ... my point with MS is that, since he was born in this universe, and grew up in it, he can examine it all he wants, and he is not going to realize he is living inside of a miracle.

I certainly don't ascribe to a Big Bang theory, it is clearly wrong,

... OOPS!

My apologies! I thought you did.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Ya ... my point with MS is that, since he was born in this universe, and grew up in it, he can examine it all he wants, and he is not going to realize he is living inside of a miracle.

So what would you consider the difference between "everything" being a miracle, and nothing being a miracle?

 

[AV1611VET]

So what would you consider the difference between "everything" being a miracle, and nothing being a miracle?

If you were a fish, what would you consider the difference between "everything" being wet, and nothing being wet?

 

[Cheeky Monkey]

Can one experiment on the ultimate variable: miracles?

Depends on the definition of miracle we're talking about.

 

[TLK Valentine]

If you were a fish, what would you consider the difference between "everything" being wet, and nothing being wet?

I would have to be taken out of the water in order to recognize such a difference. Being a fish, that would result in my extreme discomfort leading to a death by suffocation.

Perhaps a better metaphor is in order? Something out of Flatland, perhaps?

 

[AV1611VET]

Depends on the definition of miracle we're talking about.

Miracle: something that happens, without respect to raw nature.

 

[AV1611VET]

I would have to be taken out of the water in order to recognize such a difference. Being a fish, that would result in my extreme discomfort leading to a death by suffocation.

Perhaps a better metaphor is in order? Something out of Flatland, perhaps?

I'd rather stick with my example.

In Flatland, they see something they can't explain, but requires an explanation; but in my example, there is no perception at all, nor concept of "wet."

Thus the point that the universe cannot be view as a miracle because one has been born in and has grown up in it is better suited as a valid point.