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Searching_for_Christ

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So I was musing to myself, and I thought back on a reason why some say its fine to draw a picture of Christ, and the reasons stems from the fact that he actually existed on earth in a physical form so it would be no more a "graven Image" than say if they had cameras back then and took a picture of him. However I have thought about something, just because he was physically on this earth does that still make it right? he was both HUMAN which means the part we could see physically was his human nature, however we couldn't gaze on his divinity! so if we where to draw a picture of Jesus and accepting it as essentially a picture of God are we not creating a graven image? because you cannot place or draw or create God in his fullness, even if it was Jesus because in a picture you can only capture one part of him, his humanity not his divinity which essentially makes it a false picture of our Lord who cannot be pictured in the first place?

Thoughts?:liturgy:
 

InsightSoul

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You have to apply the spirit of those words instead of taking it literally. God is a jealous God and wants you to worship him instead of some graven image (pagans).

It comes down to this:

Matthew 22:37 (King James Version)


37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
 
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lucaspa

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So I was musing to myself, and I thought back on a reason why some say its fine to draw a picture of Christ, and the reasons stems from the fact that he actually existed on earth in a physical form so it would be no more a "graven Image" than say if they had cameras back then and took a picture of him. However I have thought about something, just because he was physically on this earth does that still make it right? he was both HUMAN which means the part we could see physically was his human nature, however we couldn't gaze on his divinity! so if we where to draw a picture of Jesus and accepting it as essentially a picture of God are we not creating a graven image? because you cannot place or draw or create God in his fullness, even if it was Jesus because in a picture you can only capture one part of him, his humanity not his divinity which essentially makes it a false picture of our Lord who cannot be pictured in the first place?

Remember Trinity. Jesus is fully human and fully divine. There isn't a "duality" that can be separated. Our Lord can be pictured, because he was fully human. God the Father cannot be pictured, because He does not have a material form.

The First Commandments say we are not to make images and worship them as a god. IOW, at that time the image is the god, not an image of a god. Remember the golden calf. The people worshipped the golden calf, not worshipped a god represented as a golden calf.

The drawings or carvings of Jesus are not worshipped. I have attended Catholic masses, and they do not worship the statue of Jesus on the cross that hangs behind the altar. Instead, that is there as a visual reminder that Jesus was crucified.
 
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Searching_for_Christ

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Yes but its also treated as an image of GOD. Like I said he had a physical form, but also he was divine, we misrepresent Christ I think when we draw him or attempt to carve him. I also have said nothing about Catholics worshiping the images.
 
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Sketcher

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Graven images are for worshiping. If any Christian worships an image of Christ, it's idolatry. But for the purposes of telling a story of Christ on Earth visually, especially in illiterate cultures where a Bible won't do people any good, it's fine to have.
 
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Searching_for_Christ

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Then how do you reconcile Deuteronomy 4:15-17 ?

15 “Take careful heed to yourselves, for you saw no form when the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, 16 lest you act corruptly and make for yourselves a carved image in the form of any figure: the likeness of male or female, 17 the likeness of any animal that is on the earth or the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the air,
 
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lucaspa

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Yes but its also treated as an image of GOD. Like I said he had a physical form, but also he was divine, we misrepresent Christ I think when we draw him or attempt to carve him. I also have said nothing about Catholics worshiping the images.

Let's look at the First Commandment. Exodus 20: 3-5:
"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;"

So look at that. We are told not to make a graven image and worship the image. We are not forbidden to make an image of God! Of course, at the time there was no "likeness" because God does not have a material form. We are told not to worship an image or likeness. You have taken the Commandment and changed it to a prohibition of an "image of God". But that prohibition is never stated in the First Commandment!

So, we are not serving the "graven image" or even "likeness". No one is "serving" a drawing or carving of Jesus. Some denominations bow in front of it, but we are not bowing to the image, but to God. We are just happening to do the bowing in front of the image. We can bow to God anywhere.

Now let's look at Deuteronomy 4. But let's do the entire relevant quote, which is 15-19

15 “Take careful heed to yourselves, for you saw no form when the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, 16 lest you act corruptly and make for yourselves a carved image in the form of any figure: the likeness of male or female, 17 the likeness of any animal that is on the earth or the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the air,
The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that [is] in the waters beneath the earth: And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, [even] all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven. "


Again, the emphasis is on worshipping and serving. It's another way of saying what was said in Exodus (and there is another version in Leviticus). The passage doesn't want you worshipping an image. The emphasis is still on animals, planets, stars, etc., and images of humans is not mentioned. Hmmmm.

As the passage says, at the time God had revealed "no form". Again, remember, this was long before Jesus was born and you cannot retrodict Jesus into this. The passage cannot refer to Trinity because no one knew about Trinity. So the passage cannot refer to likenesses of Jesus because you say, based on knowledge the people did not have, that Jesus is God via Trinity. That is taking the passage out of its historical context to make it mean something it does not.

You didn't specifically mention Catholics, but it wasn't difficult to see where you are going with this. Catholics and the OCC are the major denominations where there are paintings/carvings of Jesus in church. Protestant churches have a cross, but not a carving of Jesus on the cross. Altho many Protestant churches (especially the older ones) have stained glass windows with pictures of Jesus in them.

Also remember that this was written long before Jesus was born. When God is speaking of "likeness" He is speaking of "anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth". This means images of animals, stars, planets, fish, etc. As I noted above, we are not forbidden to make an "image of God". In fact, according to Genesis 1, there are lots of "images of God" around: us! Would you ban pictures of every human being because we are created "in the image" of God?
 
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Chesterton

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Then how do you reconcile Deuteronomy 4:15-17 ?

And how would your reconcile that verse with the instructions God gave for how the Ark of the Covenant was to be decorated?
 
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Searching_for_Christ

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Listen you can go ahead and say I'm trying to target Catholics and the Orthodox but I'm not, tho they just so happen to be the ones that enjoy "carvings" and such more than protestants not my problem. In regards to your asking if humans should be taken pictures of cuz we are in his image you seem to think that as an Agnostic I don't know much about the word? or perhaps you really think we are PHYSICALLY built in Gods image? We are created in Gods image in that we have some of his attributes like for instance free will, God is spirit our bodies are his creation, not his image.


In regards to the verse that I posted I want you to pay attention to something, it is saying SPECIFICALLY

15 “Take careful heed to yourselves, for you saw no form when the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, 16 lest you act corruptly and make for yourselves a carved image in the form of any figure: the likeness of male or female, 17 the likeness of any animal that is on the earth or the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the air,

the Lord isn't speaking of worshiping images he IS talking about creating ANY image to represent Him which is something you feel isn't wrong however right here says clearly not to.
 
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Searching_for_Christ

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And how would your reconcile that verse with the instructions God gave for how the Ark of the Covenant was to be decorated?
Last I knew Images of God wheren't placed in the Ark and nor where they worshiped. I'm not even touching on images of saints and angles in this thread, I'm talking SOLELY about images of God the Son.
 
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Chesterton

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Last I knew Images of God wheren't placed in the Ark and nor where they worshiped. I'm not even touching on images of saints and angles in this thread, I'm talking SOLELY about images of God the Son.

Alright, in that case the verse you cited has no bearing on your topic then.
 
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Searching_for_Christ

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Alright, in that case the verse you cited has no bearing on your topic then.
I don't see how it doesn't since it deals with the fact that God was saying none saw a form or "image" of him so do not craft one.
 
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lucaspa

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Listen you can go ahead and say I'm trying to target Catholics and the Orthodox but I'm not, tho they just so happen to be the ones that enjoy "carvings" and such more than protestants not my problem.

I never said you were "targeting" Catholics or Orthodox. As you pointed out, they have images of Christ in the Church, so they would be the ones who might be in violation of the First Commandment. It made sense that you would be thinking of them in your "musings". And you confirm that. I was simply pointing out that Catholics are not violating the Commandment, from personal observation.

We are created in Gods image in that we have some of his attributes like for instance free will, God is spirit our bodies are his creation, not his image.

The verse says "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness". Hmmm. None of the limitations you are trying to put on it. If you are worrying about images of Christ because that would be a "likeness", like the verses in Deuteronomy states, then it logically follows that pictures of humans also show a "likeness" of God. Sorry, sauce for the goose.

In regards to the verse that I posted I want you to pay attention to something, it is saying SPECIFICALLY

As I pointed out, 15-17 is only part of the commandment. When you continue to 16-19 and get all the commandment, then it is clear that the entire text is talking about worship. Putting blinders on and refusing to look at the entire commandment is simply not valid.

Go back and read my response. You didn't address it at all.
 
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lucaspa

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Last I knew Images of God wheren't placed in the Ark and nor where they worshiped.

You ducked Chesterton's question. He didn't talk about what was in the Ark, but how the outside of the Ark is decorated:

"And how would your reconcile that verse with the instructions God gave for how the Ark of the Covenant was to be decorated?"

So why don't you look up how the Ark is to be decorated and how it relates to the verses you are quoting from Deuteronomy. The verses are Exodus 25:10-22.

I'm talking SOLELY about images of God the Son.

And you seem very stubborn about your point. Especially for an "agnostic". Why are you so set in thinking that images of Jesus violate the First Commandment?
 
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Searching_for_Christ

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The verse says "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness". Hmmm. None of the limitations you are trying to put on it. If you are worrying about images of Christ because that would be a "likeness", like the verses in Deuteronomy states, then it logically follows that pictures of humans also show a "likeness" of God. Sorry, sauce for the goose.
our likeness is in his nature, I don't see anyone trying to take pictures of his nature, and if you are to claim this, then you also must claim that you do not think God is of spirit. But to address it further at the beginning of that verse in Deuteronomy, he says not to make a Image in Gods likeness either male or female (so thats human image)



As I pointed out, 15-17 is only part of the commandment. When you continue to 16-19 and get all the commandment, then it is clear that the entire text is talking about worship. Putting blinders on and refusing to look at the entire commandment is simply not valid.
I read it further, and its talking about not creating an Image for God because all they have "experienced" from him is his Voice and nothing else. It says not to look up to the heavens and worship the stars and sun ect.


So why don't you look up how the Ark is to be decorated and how it relates to the verses you are quoting from Deuteronomy. The verses are Exodus 25:10-22.
I looked it up, and don't see your point. I used a bit of bad wording but I know what was on the Ark. The point is that they weren't images of God, and they weren't treated as such either.

And you seem very stubborn about your point. Especially for an "agnostic". Why are you so set in thinking that images of Jesus violate the First Commandment?
Would you rather me never think of the possibility that we could be wrong for the pictures? would you rather me just accept that they are acceptable because someone says so? In regards to wondering why I am so set? because I see scripture that I think contradicts the widely accepted notion that its fine to create images of Jesus.
 
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Z

ZephyrWiccan

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So I was musing to myself, and I thought back on a reason why some say its fine to draw a picture of Christ, and the reasons stems from the fact that he actually existed on earth in a physical form so it would be no more a "graven Image" than say if they had cameras back then and took a picture of him. However I have thought about something, just because he was physically on this earth does that still make it right? he was both HUMAN which means the part we could see physically was his human nature, however we couldn't gaze on his divinity! so if we where to draw a picture of Jesus and accepting it as essentially a picture of God are we not creating a graven image? because you cannot place or draw or create God in his fullness, even if it was Jesus because in a picture you can only capture one part of him, his humanity not his divinity which essentially makes it a false picture of our Lord who cannot be pictured in the first place?

Thoughts?:liturgy:
Let's not even mention the graven idols of the Cross that can be seen in nearly every church and around many a Christian neck. If that's not idolatry I don't know what is!
 
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