grafted in...

[Frogster]

Frogster,

Just to clarify... you believe God's Law (outlined in Torah) is the yoke Peter referenced in Acts 15?

Acts 15:1-11 (New King James Version)


Acts 15

1 And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2 Therefore, when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and dispute with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas and certain others of them should go up to Jerusalem, to the apostles and elders, about this question.
3 So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through Phoenicia and Samaria, describing the conversion of the Gentiles; and they caused great joy to all the brethren. 4 And when they had come to Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders; and they reported all things that God had done with them. 5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”
6 Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. 7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”


In Him-Rain

Thanks for finally finishing our chat.

Yes, please prcoceed, I can't wait to see where you are going.

 

[Frogster]

Do you think Jesus is still keeping the Law today?

For instance:
Do you think Jesus TODAY would still keep Biblical dietary commands, if He was walking on the Earth? Or do you think He's happily help Himself to a pork chop for instance?
Do you think He would still keep the 7th day Sabbath and celebrate the 7 Biblical Feasts of Leviticus 23... if He returned RIGHT NOW?

Or do you believe that after the cross and ressurection Jesus HIMSELF no longer keeps the Law?

In Him-Rain

Sure he would. Why would Peter eat chops?


How could Paul, the minister to the Gentiles, not eat with Gentiles, the very thing he rebuked Peter for. Who told them that is was ok?


Gal 2:12 For before certain men came from James, he was eating with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party.

Acts 11:3 “You went to uncircumcised men and ate with them.”

 

[Frogster]

Please provide proof, that the 70th week in Daniel was for thousands of years later. Also, why God, who allowed the first temple to be knocked down, seek to offer up animals again, grieving the spirit of grace. Please provide scripture. God bless you.

Good point! ..imagine thousands trying to cram into an ancient synagoge!

 

[Frogster]

How am I confusing you?

The Law is written on the heart of all true believers via the Holy Spirit (aka Jesus) who lives in and through them.

Therefore, if the perfect Law keeper is dwelling inside of you, it would stand to reason that if you are "walking as He walked," by the SPIRIT and not according to the flesh, if you are being transformed into the image of Messiah by the renewing of your mind, seeking to submit to HIS WAYS instead of the WAYS OF THIS WORLD. That you would by nature be following the Law Messiah HIMSELF kept, keeps and has written upon your heart.

That's logical right?

How can one say.
I believe Jesus is Lord and Saviour, I believe He is the only begotten son of the Father and has redeemed and forgiven me... I long to serve Him, I desire to learn from Him and follow hard after Him, to live by the SPIRIT and submit to HIM... but then REFUSE to live their lives in a way that Jesus Himself lived?

That confuses me.

Deuteronomy 6:6
“And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart.

Jeremiah 31:33
But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Hebrews 10:16
“This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,”


Oh and this one too...

Deuteronomy 30:11-14 (New King James Version)


11 “For this commandment which I command you today is not too mysterious for you, nor is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend into heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it.

I dunno sis..then answer this simple question.

Why didn't Paul say?

"ok guys, now by the Spirit, keep the sabbath".

I mean, if we are too keep all the laws by the Spirit, why didn't Paul say keep the Sab, via the spirit?

 

[bugkiller]

So there you have all the answer to the OP, from scripture, plus why very few will believe even this clear exposition of what the saints and prophets say ... LOLOL ?

I would really like to respond to your whole post point by point, however you are very close to the 5,000 word limit so such a response will not post.

First the Op is full of nonsesne (where I'm from we called it hogwash). I am sorry the rules won't let me say what I really think. There is no Biblical basis for the OP's statement. There is no such thing as spiritual Israel. It was called British Isrealism when I was a brat.

Secondly you ignore the historical record of Acts to say that Gentiles are not included in the NC.

Thirdly there is no Jew or Gentile in Christ Jesus - Gal 3:28. No Jew - no Israel, spiritual or otherwise. Pretty simple.

And fourth Jesus says whosoever will and not the Jew/Israelite that will.

And I just hafta ask, would by any chance happen to know Squint?

bugkiller

 

[Frogster]

I would really like to respond to your whole post point by point, however you are very close to the 5,000 word limit so such a response will not post.

First the Op is full of nonsesne (where I'm from we called it hogwash). I am sorry the rules won't let me say what I really think. There is no Biblival basis for the OP's statement. There is no such thing as spiritual Israel. It was called British Isrealism when I was a brat.

Secondly you ignore the historical record of Acts to say that Gentiles are not included in the NC.

Thirdly there is no Jew or Gentile in Christ Jesus - Gal 3:28. No Jew - no Israel, spiritual or otherwise. Pretty simple.

And fourth Jesus says whosoever will and not the Jew/Israelite that will.

And I just hafta ask, would by any chance happen to know Squint?

bugkiller

I remember squint

Did you ever notice torah observant people, always forget that Paul uses Abraham to show the opposite of nationalism.

Gal 3:28, good verse.

 

[from scratch]

The "NEW COVENANT" which is outlined in detail in Jeremiah, (A PROPHET) chapter 31... It's part of what Jesus says will not pass away thankfully.

Matthew 5

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law OR THE PROPHETS. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.



Correction...

There are still Jews who claim that they are of the Levitical lineage they simply do not perform the Levitical tasks outlined in Torah because there is no current Temple, without which they can not fulfill thier duties.

When we read FUTURE PROPHECY in Ezekiel 44 etc. Scripture makes it clear that one day when Messiah returns the Levitical Preisthood will again have duties to perform, much the same as they did in Torah... RIGHT?

We also know that AFTER Messiah died, rose, and ascended there were still Levitical Priests performing their duties at the Temple... Paul even went to the Temple to take part in certain purity Laws etc. in Acts according to the LAW he hiself upheld and kept. RIGHT???

So, your "proof" that jots and tittles have passed from the Law and Prophets (using Hebrews 7:12) flies directly in the face of Jesus' own declaration (in Matt 5) and future UNFULFILLED prophecy (in Eze 44).

Can you reconcile these contradictions?
How can the Levitical Preisthood be no more, as you assert when FUTURE UNFULFILLED PROPHECY in Ezekiel mentions that the Levitical Priesthood will resume duties when Messiah returns to reign?

God's preisthood had been foretold, established and remembered by King David long before Hebrews 7:12, Bugkiller... Way back in the Psalms... and was also brought to light in Genesis.

Psalm 110:4 (New King James Version)


4 The LORD has sworn
And will not relent,
“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.”



Genesis 14:18 (New King James Version)


18 Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; He was the priest of God Most High.

In Him-Rain

I read alot of the stuff in GT and I like bugkiller's usual reply to Matt 5:17, and 18. He refers and sometimes quotes LK 24:44. Are you familar with this verse. I noticed he highlights the last two words concerning Me. Even Frogster I think has used a different translation stateing the same thing, somewhere.

 

[from scratch]

1.) Israel and Judah the same people who will one day recieve the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31).
2.) Anyone who comes to teach the Israelites any doctrine that would lead them away from Yahweh and His commandments.
3.) Any true believer, no matter their affiliation, will follow Yahweh.
4.) The Israelites the same people who are specifically mentioned as being the reciepents of the New Covenant, along side Judah, in Jeremiah 31.
5.)
John 15:10
If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

In Him- Rain

By your numbers, I guess you didn't like bullets.

1) Didn't someone ask in this thread about the record in Acts concerning Gentiles? Is that record correct? Or could good ole Dr Luke be wrong?

2) So do you think that anyone who doesn't keep the law qualify here? What do you think about Paul saying we're delivered from the law and how about Christ is the end of the law?

3) What do you mean follow Yahweh? I thought Christians followed Jesus.

4) You answered and brought up another issue: Is the New Covenant for Jews/Israelites only, or can it include Gentiles? I think somwone said something about Acts.

5) Did you notice that there are two sets of commandments mentioned in your verse? My commandments and My Father's commandments. So are theretwo sets of commandments? I only know of one set which are usually referenced in Exodus 20. So where is the other set of commandments?

 

[from scratch]

I remember squint

Did you ever notice torah observant people, always forget that Paul uses Abraham to show the opposite of nationalism.

Gal 3:28, good verse.

Who is this Squint person? Am I missing out on something? Can you tell me with out getting into trouble? If not just say no and I will understand.

 

[from scratch]

Sure he would. Why would Peter eat chops?


How could Paul, the minister to the Gentiles, not eat with Gentiles, the very thing he rebuked Peter for. Who told them that is was ok?


Gal 2:12 For before certain men came from James, he was eating with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party.

Acts 11:3 “You went to uncircumcised men and ate with them.”

Interesting question? You mean good ole emotional Peter was being a hypocrite?

 

[Rainie]

The resurrected Jesus acting under the NC that He testified is now in force - No to your first question and a possible yes to your second question.

bugkiller

Ah, this is key… I asked:

Do you think Jesus is still keeping the Law today?

You answered:

The resurrected Jesus acting under the NC that He testified is now in force - No

Bugkiller,
It’s not the “OC” alone that requires a High Priest, sacrifice, circumcision, temple etc.

Jesus CURRENTLY J “FULFULLS (FILLS-UP)” the very REAL, very EXISTENT Law of God given at Mt. Sinai… TODAY.

God’s ETERNAL Law given at Mt. Sinai, has to still exist TODAY and Jesus MUST still be keeping it or else what is Jesus CURRENTLY fulfilling on our behalf, RIGHT NOW???

In Him- Rain

 

[Rainie]

Are you goung to try to actually say it was not an extremely predominate Jewish audience? Excuse,me, but you show a weakness in bible study. How could a multitude who followers of Jesus who numbered in the thousands, fit into a synagoge?

Can you prove there were no Gentiles in the audience at the Sermon on the Mount?

In Him- Rain

 

[Rainie]

Please provide proof, that the 70th week in Daniel was for thousands of years later. Also, why God, who allowed the first temple to be knocked down, seek to offer up animals again, grieving the spirit of grace. Please provide scripture. God bless you.

May I suggest you do an indepth study of Ezekiel? Chapters 35-48 are very interesting, no historical Temple meets this description.

Do you think Paul greived the spirit of grace when long after Jesus death, ressurection and ascention... Paul himself, with the support of Peter, James and John went to the Temple in Acts 21 and took the Navarite vow publically (the nazarite vow requires a sin sacrifice and other offerings etc.)?????

In the same way, do you think when all the Old Testament characters we know and love, chose to sacrifice that they too were grieving the spirit of grace?

In Him- Rain

 

[Rainie]

My law is not the old covenant or covenant established at Sinai.

How so?
All over the Mt. Sinai scriptures (Exodus-Deut) Yahweh HIMSELF claims those Laws to be HIS LAW.



Exodus 16:28
And the LORD said to Moses, “How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws?

Exodus 20:6
but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Exodus 31:13
“Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: ‘Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the LORD who sanctifies you.

Leviticus 19:3
‘Every one of you shall revere his mother and his father, and keep My Sabbaths: I am the LORD your God.

Leviticus 19:30
‘You shall keep My Sabbaths and reverence My sanctuary: I am the LORD.

Leviticus 22:31
“Therefore you shall keep My commandments, and perform them: I am the LORD.

Leviticus 26:2
You shall keep My Sabbaths and reverence My sanctuary:I am the LORD.

Leviticus 26:3
‘If you walk in My statutes and keep My commandments, and perform them,

Leviticus 26:15
and if you despise My statutes, or if your soul abhors My judgments, so that you do not perform all My commandments, but break My covenant,

Numbers 15:40
and that you may remember and do all My commandments, and be holy for your God.

Deuteronomy 5:10
but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Deuteronomy 5:29
Oh, that they had such a heart in them that they would fear Me and always keep all My commandments, that it might be well with them and with their children forever!

Deuteronomy 11:13
‘And it shall be that if you earnestly obey My commandments which I command you today, to love the LORD your God and serve Him with all your heart and with all your soul,



You believe Jeremiah 31 was introducing a new "My Law" into Biblical context. If so, who's Laws were all of the above if not Yahweh's??

 

[Rainie]

I am really wondering how you can even suggest that Jesus was speaking to a world wide audience at the Sermon on the Mount? I thought this took place in Israel. Considering the time it took to travel any where and it was early in His ministry. Jesus said He was sent to the lost sheep of Israel. Again why would he then be preaching to the world? I find no hint of this. The Jews were looking for a possible leader to deliver them from the Romans at this time. Jesus had a lot of ideas contrary to the day and He did supernatural things like heal people and turn water into wine for the party. Why wouldn't He attract a crowd any where He went? Now why would non Jews be interested in Jewish prophecy - 5:17, 18?

Can you PROVE there was not a single Gentile in the "multitudes"?
Go back and read all of the Old Testament scriptures which include the "foriegners, sojourners and strangers" who lived AMONGST Israel.

To me, it seems only logical that if strangers were allowed to Sacrifice and worship Yahweh along side the natives in the Old Testament that there would stand to be a few Gentile "strangers" mingling around in Israel during Jesus' ministry and possibly heard the Master's sermon.

 

[Rainie]

Oh I am sorry I did not know there was a Messianic organization outside of the MJs. I would like some education. What is the difference? I thought you used an MJ symbol prior to vacation. What do they believe? You stil have the same flavor to your posts. I do have this saying that if it waddles and quacks like a duck it probably is a duck. Doesn't matter what it calls itself. I still see and hear a duck.

And I apologize to Source Scripture.

bugkiller

I have never used the MJ symbol. I'm "in Christ, in Messiah" etc. just like early believers were, it's really very easy to understand. I find no value in manmade organizational affiliations.

 

[Rainie]

Thanks for finally finishing our chat.

Yes, please prcoceed, I can't wait to see where you are going.

If God's Law outlined in Torah is the yoke Peter claimed to be unbearable in Acts 15 then how come Paul Himself kept God's Law and so did King David even claiming to LOVE it and Zacharias and Elizabeth, they too kept God's Law.
Read Psalms 119, it proves that God's Law is a blessing.

Had Peter never read the Psalms? Had he never heard of John the Baptists parents? Did he not know Paul went to the Temple and gave offerings and sacrifices?

Of course then there's Jesus HIMSELF who didn't find Law keeping to be unbearable and He is THE WORD made flesh.

In Him- Rain

Five documented witnesses stand against your understanding of God's Law being the unbearable yoke in Acts 15.

Jesus, King David, Paul, Zacharias and Elizabeth... you have especially never been able to challenge these two:

Luke 1
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah. His wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. 7 But they had no child, because Elizabeth was barren, and they were both well advanced in years.


In Him- Rain

 

[Rainie]

Sure he would. Why would Peter eat chops?


How could Paul, the minister to the Gentiles, not eat with Gentiles, the very thing he rebuked Peter for. Who told them that is was ok?


Gal 2:12 For before certain men came from James, he was eating with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party.

Acts 11:3 “You went to uncircumcised men and ate with them.”

So you believe Jesus would sit down and eat pork chips today... interesting.

I eat with my in-laws too... They load there plates with certain foods and I load mine with others.
I ate with all sorts of people of varying faiths the other day at a resturant, doesn't mean we all ordered the same thing.

Just because Peter was WITH the gentiles does not mean he was eating off their menu.

Can you provide the scriptures were any of Jesus followers in the NT are mentioned specifically eating a "previously" thought to be unclean animal?

In Him- Rain

 

[Rainie]

I dunno sis..then answer this simple question.

Why didn't Paul say?

"ok guys, now by the Spirit, keep the sabbath".

I mean, if we are too keep all the laws by the Spirit, why didn't Paul say keep the Sab, via the spirit?

Keeping the Sabbath was a given at this point in history, why would Paul teach a given? In Paul's day there was no Sunday worship... RIGHT?

Why do you think the Gentiles were at the synagogues learning along side the Jews on Sabbath???

Even Paul kept the Sabbath. Many early believers in Messiah kept the Sabbath . Even Mary kept the Sabbath right after Jesus was removed from the cross, don't you think she would've known or been told that keeping the Sabbath was unnessicary?

The real question is why didn't Paul, the great teacher of law abolishment, go and teach the Gentiles in parks, tents or build churches and start worshipping on Sunday to excersise their freedom in Christ?

Can you show those scriptures? Where Paul told people to foresake the 7th day of Yahweh in favor of a NEW DAY enforced by men???

In Him-Rain

 

[Frogster]

Interesting question? You mean good ole emotional Peter was being a hypocrite?

Yep, he was not in line with the gospel, whe he reverted to judaism. Period!