grafted in...

[Frogster]

If God's Law outlined in Torah is the yoke Peter claimed to be unbearable in Acts 15 then how come Paul Himself kept God's Law and so did King David even claiming to LOVE it and Zacharias and Elizabeth, they too kept God's Law.
Read Psalms 119, it proves that God's Law is a blessing.

Had Peter never read the Psalms? Had he never heard of John the Baptists parents? Did he not know Paul went to the Temple and gave offerings and sacrifices?

Of course then there's Jesus HIMSELF who didn't find Law keeping to be unbearable and He is THE WORD made flesh.

In Him- Rain

Five documented witnesses stand against your understanding of God's Law being the unbearable yoke in Acts 15.

Jesus, King David, Paul, Zacharias and Elizabeth... you have especially never been able to challenge these two:

Luke 1
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah. His wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. 7 But they had no child, because Elizabeth was barren, and they were both well advanced in years.


In Him- Rain

wow..I feel so let down, you had my adrenals pumped up for nothing.

My sister, how does that negate the fact of what peter and paul said, that it was a yoke historically, and would be afterwards?


It is just like white sugar, those who eat it don't know it is bad,until they eat natural sugar! The new wine came, to make a comparison!

Why does the inspired text ,say judaism was the same principle of the elementalism of the pagans in gal 4?

3 In the same way we also, when we (jewish paul)were children, were enslaved to the elementary principles of the world.

Why?

 

[Frogster]

[/COLOR]

How so?
All over the Mt. Sinai scriptures (Exodus-Deut) Yahweh HIMSELF claims those Laws to be HIS LAW.



Exodus 16:28
And the LORD said to Moses, “How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws?

Exodus 20:6
but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Exodus 31:13
“Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: ‘Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the LORD who sanctifies you.

Leviticus 19:3
‘Every one of you shall revere his mother and his father, and keep My Sabbaths: I am the LORD your God.

Leviticus 19:30
‘You shall keep My Sabbaths and reverence My sanctuary: I am the LORD.

Leviticus 22:31
“Therefore you shall keep My commandments, and perform them: I am the LORD.

Leviticus 26:2
You shall keep My Sabbaths and reverence My sanctuary:I am the LORD.

Leviticus 26:3
‘If you walk in My statutes and keep My commandments, and perform them,

Leviticus 26:15
and if you despise My statutes, or if your soul abhors My judgments, so that you do not perform all My commandments, but break My covenant,

Numbers 15:40
and that you may remember and do all My commandments, and be holy for your God.

Deuteronomy 5:10
but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Deuteronomy 5:29
Oh, that they had such a heart in them that they would fear Me and always keep all My commandments, that it might be well with them and with their children forever!

Deuteronomy 11:13
‘And it shall be that if you earnestly obey My commandments which I command you today, to love the LORD your God and serve Him with all your heart and with all your soul,



You believe Jeremiah 31 was introducing a new "My Law" into Biblical context. If so, who's Laws were all of the above if not Yahweh's??

Then why was paul so adament about them not keeping sab in Gal 4? Was paul telling them to break the law?

 

[Frogster]

So you believe Jesus would sit down and eat pork chips today... interesting.

I eat with my in-laws too... They load there plates with certain foods and I load mine with others.
I ate with all sorts of people of varying faiths the other day at a resturant, doesn't mean we all ordered the same thing.

Just because Peter was WITH the gentiles does not mean he was eating off their menu.

Can you provide the scriptures were any of Jesus followers in the NT are mentioned specifically eating a "previously" thought to be unclean animal?

In Him- Rain

Your arguing from a void.

What does the text say?

12 For before certain men came from James, he was eating with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party.


3 “You went to uncircumcised men and ate with them.”

Would there have been an issue, if the food was mosaic friendly?

 

[Frogster]

Keeping the Sabbath was a given at this point in history, why would Paul teach a given? In Paul's day there was no Sunday worship... RIGHT?

Why do you think the Gentiles were at the synagogues learning along side the Jews on Sabbath???

Even Paul kept the Sabbath. Many early believers in Messiah kept the Sabbath . Even Mary kept the Sabbath right after Jesus was removed from the cross, don't you think she would've known or been told that keeping the Sabbath was unnessicary?

The real question is why didn't Paul, the great teacher of law abolishment, go and teach the Gentiles in parks, tents or build churches and start worshipping on Sunday to excersise their freedom in Christ?

Can you show those scriptures? Where Paul told people to foresake the 7th day of Yahweh in favor of a NEW DAY enforced by men???

In Him-Rain

Shadows....

Paul was furious that thet were getting into the jewish calendar, sis.

 

[from scratch]

Can you prove there were no Gentiles in the audience at the Sermon on the Mount?

In Him- Rain

No more than you can prove there were. But if your argument hangs on the fact of Gentiles being present to equate to Jesus speaking to the world, it kinda weak. What in the sermon indicates Gentiles are being addressed?

 

[from scratch]

I have never used the MJ symbol. I'm "in Christ, in Messiah" etc. just like early believers were, it's really very easy to understand. I find no value in manmade organizational affiliations.

I wonder why you talk like an MJ. Who else besides them and Jews use the the terms Messiah and Yahweh.

 

[from scratch]

Keeping the Sabbath was a given at this point in history, why would Paul teach a given? In Paul's day there was no Sunday worship... RIGHT?

Why do you think the Gentiles were at the synagogues learning along side the Jews on Sabbath???

Even Paul kept the Sabbath. Many early believers in Messiah kept the Sabbath . Even Mary kept the Sabbath right after Jesus was removed from the cross, don't you think she would've known or been told that keeping the Sabbath was unnessicary?

The real question is why didn't Paul, the great teacher of law abolishment, go and teach the Gentiles in parks, tents or build churches and start worshipping on Sunday to excersise their freedom in Christ?

Can you show those scriptures? Where Paul told people to foresake the 7th day of Yahweh in favor of a NEW DAY enforced by men???

In Him-Rain

What about I Cor 16?

Concerning Mary - habit and tradition are both cruel taskmasters. How much trama can one handle at one time?

Again what about I Cor 16.

 

[Rainie]

I read alot of the stuff in GT and I like bugkiller's usual reply to Matt 5:17, and 18. He refers and sometimes quotes LK 24:44. Are you familar with this verse. I noticed he highlights the last two words concerning Me. Even Frogster I think has used a different translation stateing the same thing, somewhere.

Yes, I know what verse you are talking about.

 

[from scratch]

Yes, I know what verse you are talking about.

Doesn't it rather limit the prophecies Jesus talked about to Himself? What else could Jesus be referring to when He made the remarks in LK 24:44?

 

[Rainie]

Don't know how to do the bullets, sorry...

#3 here grabbed my attention...

What do you mean follow Yahweh? I thought Christians followed Jesus.

Ummm, Yahweh is Jesus .

You make a valid point in stating it this way though, there are many who teach a seperation of the two. Sort of a OT God vs a NT God but you see if you are a true believer you worship the ONLY GOD who's name is Yahweh.

Joel 2:32 (New King James Version)

32 And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the LORD (Yahweh)
Shall be saved.
For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance,
As the LORD (Yahweh) has said,
Among the remnant whom the LORD (Yahweh) calls.

If you believe that Jesus is not Yahweh (as mentioned Gen 21:33; Exodus 15:2; Psalm 3:8; Exo 31:13; Eze 37:28; Psalm 31:5 and the above scripture in Joel etc.) then it's no wonder we can't agree on other issues.

The Lord is ONE.

John 10:28-30 (New King James Version)
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

 

[Rainie]

wow..I feel so let down, you had my adrenals pumped up for nothing.

My sister, how does that negate the fact of what peter and paul said, that it was a yoke historically, and would be afterwards?


It is just like white sugar, those who eat it don't know it is bad,until they eat natural sugar! The new wine came, to make a comparison!

Why does the inspired text ,say judaism was the same principle of the elementalism of the pagans in gal 4?

3 In the same way we also, when we (jewish paul)were children, were enslaved to the elementary principles of the world.

Why?

Luke 1
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah. His wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. 7 But they had no child, because Elizabeth was barren, and they were both well advanced in years.

Still can't reconcile these two witnesses to fit into your doctrine that Peter taught that God's Law was unbearable in Acts 15... can you?

These two people a married couple were righteous, walked in ALL the commandments and ordances of Yahweh "blamelessly."

Apparently, the Law is not unbearable.

Can move on now?

In Him- Rain

 

[Rainie]

Then why was paul so adament about them not keeping sab in Gal 4? Was paul telling them to break the law?

Paul HIMSELF kept the Sabbath, taught on Sabbath and went to the Temple and sacrificed etc.

 

[Rainie]

Your arguing from a void.

What does the text say?

12 For before certain men came from James, he was eating with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party.


3 “You went to uncircumcised men and ate with them.”

Would there have been an issue, if the food was mosaic friendly?

Heck, yes there would've been a problem, even if the Gentiles were serving an entirely Biblically Kosher meal, Jews were FORBIDDEN to associate WITH Gentiles per Rabbinic and oral teachings of that time.

Remember, the whole WALL OF SEPERATION that forbid gentiles and Jews to associate, that MEN had added to the Temple design... that is ENTIRELY against God's Law!

However, God's Law NEVER forbids "natives" from associating with "strangers," I'm pretty sure we discussed this too.

Peter was so caught up in not only the Biblical Law of God but he also was wrapped up in the additions... AKA TRADITIONS OF MEN.

So yep, he feared the circumsision party approaching, not because he was knawing on a slice of bacon but because he was "WITH" the gentiles, a no-no according to Jewish tradtion.

 

[Frogster]

I wonder why you talk like an MJ. Who else besides them and Jews use the the terms Messiah and Yahweh.

Fair point.

 

[Rainie]

Shadows....

Paul was furious that thet were getting into the jewish calendar, sis.

Not a very Scriptural answer.

"Shadows of things to COME"

Paul kept the Law.

Can you show where Paul started worshiping in churches, picking outside of synagogues or encouraging his followers to attend Sunday service???

Why on earth would Paul have made sacrifices, offerings etc. at the Temple and pay for other men to do the same with the approval of James etc. If the Law is an unbearable yoke, death, slavery etc.

Was he just an enormously confused hypocrite? How can we trust anything he teaches if you are correct and he taught one things but DID the exact oppisite?

For the record, I believe no such thing.

Scripture please.

In Him- Rain

 

[Frogster]

Luke 1
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah. His wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. 7 But they had no child, because Elizabeth was barren, and they were both well advanced in years.

Still can't reconcile these two witnesses to fit into your doctrine that Peter taught that God's Law was unbearable in Acts 15... can you?

These two people a married couple were righteous, walked in ALL the commandments and ordances of Yahweh "blamelessly."

Apparently, the Law is not unbearable.

Can move on now?

In Him- Rain

What do you think you poroved? So, they walked they way they had to, but they were of that dispensation.

Besides the fact that Peter,under the new dispensation said it was a yoke, why did Paul compare Judaism to the same principles as the pagans?

3 In the same way we also, when we (jewish paul)were children, were enslaved to the elementary principles of the world.


9 But now that you ( pagans) have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose slaves you want to be once more?

I await.

 

[Rainie]

No more than you can prove there were. But if your argument hangs on the fact of Gentiles being present to equate to Jesus speaking to the world, it kinda weak. What in the sermon indicates Gentiles are being addressed?

True neither of us can prove one way or another.

Well, most Christians (Gentiles) believe that adultery starts with a lustful heart, along with murder beginning with hate etc. These were parts of the sermon on the mount (which is quoting various lessons outlined in THE LAW by the way) and most Christians teach these principles to their congregation. So whether or not Gentiles were in the Physical audience that day is irrelevent because Jesus knew the Gentiles would hear His words in the Gospels at a later date... didn't He?

What was said at the Sermon on the Mount that makes you think it was only for the Jews???

In Him-Rain

 

[Frogster]

Paul HIMSELF kept the Sabbath, taught on Sabbath and went to the Temple and sacrificed etc.

Yes, he taught on the Sab..taught what? you prove my point, it was evangelitic in reason. When would alot be gathered?
Why preach to just a few?

As far as the sacrifice, it was James who forced it, read the story in Acts 21. He said he did alot of things for others consciences etc.

Now, what about the question. Why did Paul not want them to keep the Sabbath command in Galatia?

 

[Frogster]

True neither of us can prove one way or another.

Well, most Christians (Gentiles) believe that adultery starts with a lustful heart, along with murder beginning with hate etc. These were parts of the sermon on the mount (which is quoting various lessons outlined in THE LAW by the way) and most Christians teach these principles to their congregation. So whether or not Gentiles were in the Physical audience that day is irrelevent because Jesus knew the Gentiles would hear His words in the Gospels at a later date... didn't He?

What was said at the Sermon on the Mount that makes you think it was only for the Jews???

In Him-Rain

Yet, others love to say to the jew first. Which way ya goin sis?

 

[Rainie]

I wonder why you talk like an MJ. Who else besides them and Jews use the the terms Messiah and Yahweh.

Abraham before he was circumsised, when he was yet a GENTILE used the name Yahweh, so I will too !

Genesis 21:33 (New American Standard Bible)


33Abraham planted a tamarisk tree at Beersheba, and there he called on the name of the LORD (HEBREW YAHWEH), the Everlasting God.

There's also a fairly well known CHRISTIAN hymn called "Yahweh, I know you are near." A lot of Christians/Catholics love this melody.

Oh and side note most Jews don't use the name Yahweh, instead that use the letter YHWH because the name spelled out is VERY sacred to them, they rarely if ever even speak the name. There are many MJ that do the same.

In Him- Rain