grafted in...

[Frogster]

Not a very Scriptural answer.

"Shadows of things to COME"

Are you saying the substance did not come?


16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.
Paul kept the Law.

Can you show where Paul started worshiping in churches, picking outside of synagogues or encouraging his followers to attend Sunday service???

Why on earth would Paul have made sacrifices, offerings etc. at the Temple and pay for other men to do the same with the approval of James etc. If the Law is an unbearable yoke, death, slavery etc.

Read it, it was what happened. james feared the thousands. DID IT BEAR FRUIT?

NO..paul was arrested wasn't he?


You are looking at one blip in history in a very stressful transitional time, and ignoring the whole theme of scripture.

Was he just an enormously confused hypocrite? How can we trust anything he teaches if you are correct and he taught one things but DID the exact oppisite?

Again, why go by one moment, that caught him off guard. he brought money to the poor, only to hear james say they think you are a heritic. give paul a break, and do not look to belittle him please.

For the record, I believe no such thing.

Scripture please.

In Him- Rain

IF PAUL PREACHED LAW, WHY DID THE SYNAGOGUE LEADERS GIVE HIM 49 LASHES, MINUS ONE? THAT WAS FOR LAWBREAKING. NO?

 

[from scratch]

Don't know how to do the bullets, sorry...

#3 here grabbed my attention...



Ummm, Yahweh is Jesus .

You make a valid point in stating it this way though, there are many who teach a seperation of the two. Sort of a OT God vs a NT God but you see if you are a true believer you worship the ONLY GOD who's name is Yahweh.

Joel 2:32 (New King James Version)

32 And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the LORD (Yahweh)
Shall be saved.
For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance,
As the LORD (Yahweh) has said,
Among the remnant whom the LORD (Yahweh) calls.

If you believe that Jesus is not Yahweh (as mentioned Gen 21:33; Exodus 15:2; Psalm 3:8; Exo 31:13; Eze 37:28; Psalm 31:5 and the above scripture in Joel etc.) then it's no wonder we can't agree on other issues.

The Lord is ONE.

John 10:28-30 (New King James Version)
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

I am sorry but the NT calls Him Jesus. do you have proof that the Greek word rendered Jesus is the Hewbrew word Yahweh? I don;t think so. Jesus (Iēsous) is used 983 times in the NT. How many times is Yahweh used to refer to Jesus? I don't recall once.

John 10:30 is about as badas it gets for proof texting. John is not saying that the Father and Jesus is the same Being. There are to many texts in John alone that say things like:

• the Father loveth the Son
• the Father hath sent Me
• the Father sent Me
• ye neither know Me,nor My Father
• My Father hath taught Me
• the Father hath not left Me
• I have seen with My Father
• I honour My Father
• My Father that honoureth Me
• the Father knoweth Me
• Father save Me
• the Father which sent Me
• cometh unto the Father, but by Me
• the Father said unto Me
• I go unto My Father
• I will pray the Father
• My Father will love him and we will
• the Father will send in My name

Get the idea they are not the same Being?

 

[Frogster]

Heck, yes there would've been a problem, even if the Gentiles were serving an entirely Biblically Kosher meal, Jews were FORBIDDEN to associate WITH Gentiles per Rabbinic and oral teachings of that time.

Remember, the whole WALL OF SEPERATION that forbid gentiles and Jews to associate, that MEN had added to the Temple design... that is ENTIRELY against God's Law!

However, God's Law NEVER forbids "natives" from associating with "strangers," I'm pretty sure we discussed this too.

Peter was so caught up in not only the Biblical Law of God but he also was wrapped up in the additions... AKA TRADITIONS OF MEN.

So yep, he feared the circumsision party approaching, not because he was knawing on a slice of bacon but because he was "WITH" the gentiles, a no-no according to Jewish tradtion.

Sorry..it says ate, everyone knows the table laws were a big issue, try again please.

Just for the record, after much study over the months, the eph 2 verse about the wall.

Does it say TEMPLE WALL?

Was the temple still standing when Paul wrote?

 

[Frogster]

IF PAUL PREACHED LAW, WHY DID THE SYNAGOGUE LEADERS GIVE HIM 49 LASHES, MINUS ONE? ON FIVE DIFFERENT OCCASIONS. THAT WAS FOR LAWBREAKING. NO?

I thought he "kept the sabbath" in the synagogues?

 

[Frogster]

I am sorry but the NT calls Him Jesus. do you have proof that the Greek word rendered Jesus is the Hewbrew word Yahweh? I don;t think so. Jesus (Iēsous) is used 983 times in the NT. How many times is Yahweh used to refer to Jesus? I don't recall once.

John 10:30 is about as badas it gets for proof texting. John is not saying that the Father and Jesus is the same Being. There are to many texts in John alone that say things like:

• the Father loveth the Son
• the Father hath sent Me
• the Father sent Me
• ye neither know Me,nor My Father
• My Father hath taught Me
• the Father hath not left Me
• I have seen with My Father
• I honour My Father
• My Father that honoureth Me
• the Father knoweth Me
• Father save Me
• the Father which sent Me
• cometh unto the Father, but by Me
• the Father said unto Me
• I go unto My Father
• I will pray the Father
• My Father will love him and we will
• the Father will send in My name

Get the idea they are not the same Being?

Hoot down!

 

[from scratch]

IF PAUL PREACHED LAW, WHY DID THE SYNAGOGUE LEADERS GIVE HIM 49 LASHES, MINUS ONE? ON FIVE DIFFERENT OCCASIONS. THAT WAS FOR LAWBREAKING. NO?

I thought he "kept the sabbath" in the synagogues?

Was it for observing the Sabbath and worshipping in the synagogue? That is what is claimed. Interesting question anyway.

 

[Source Scripture]

May I suggest you do an indepth study of Ezekiel? Chapters 35-48 are very interesting, no historical Temple meets this description.

Do you think Paul greived the spirit of grace when long after Jesus death, ressurection and ascention... Paul himself, with the support of Peter, James and John went to the Temple in Acts 21 and took the Navarite vow publically (the nazarite vow requires a sin sacrifice and other offerings etc.)?????

In the same way, do you think when all the Old Testament characters we know and love, chose to sacrifice that they too were grieving the spirit of grace?

In Him- Rain

Indeed something greater than the temple came, hence the abolishment of the temple on earth. However you did not reply to a rather simple question. Where does it indicate that suddenly the 70th week, transpires to be well over 2000 years later? Also, do you think if they did make a temple, The Almighty would delight in animal sacrifices, and honor that act? God bless you.

 

[Source Scripture]

Can you PROVE there was not a single Gentile in the "multitudes"?
Go back and read all of the Old Testament scriptures which include the "foriegners, sojourners and strangers" who lived AMONGST Israel.

To me, it seems only logical that if strangers were allowed to Sacrifice and worship Yahweh along side the natives in the Old Testament that there would stand to be a few Gentile "strangers" mingling around in Israel during Jesus' ministry and possibly heard the Master's sermon.

Pardon the interruption, but how could the uncircumcised offer sacrifice, if they were not allowed in the temple? Also, since there was after all one law, that had to be that of Moses, indicating subjugation, to partake of feasts and such, in nother words conversion.

 

[Source Scripture]

wow..I feel so let down, you had my adrenals pumped up for nothing.

My sister, how does that negate the fact of what peter and paul said, that it was a yoke historically, and would be afterwards?


It is just like white sugar, those who eat it don't know it is bad,until they eat natural sugar! The new wine came, to make a comparison!

Why does the inspired text ,say judaism was the same principle of the elementalism of the pagans in gal 4?

3 In the same way we also, when we (jewish paul)were children, were enslaved to the elementary principles of the world.

Why?

Sound hermeneutics frogster, and I hope a point that we all can explore.

 

[Source Scripture]

What about I Cor 16?

Concerning May - habit and tradition are both cruel taskmasters. How much trama can one handle at one time?

Again what about I Cor 16.

Ah yes, a stumbling block to our Sabbatarian friends, the fiirst day of the week.

 

[Source Scripture]

Heck, yes there would've been a problem, even if the Gentiles were serving an entirely Biblically Kosher meal, Jews were FORBIDDEN to associate WITH Gentiles per Rabbinic and oral teachings of that time.

Remember, the whole WALL OF SEPERATION that forbid gentiles and Jews to associate, that MEN had added to the Temple design... that is ENTIRELY against God's Law!

However, God's Law NEVER forbids "natives" from associating with "strangers," I'm pretty sure we discussed this too.

Peter was so caught up in not only the Biblical Law of God but he also was wrapped up in the additions... AKA TRADITIONS OF MEN.

So yep, he feared the circumsision party approaching, not because he was knawing on a slice of bacon but because he was "WITH" the gentiles, a no-no according to Jewish tradtion.

However frogster has shown proper hermeneutics. In light of the following verses, where Paul spoke of the law, after his rebuke to Peter, the context bears out, it was the Mosaic food laws, and as frogster has shown it does say eat, the Holy Spirit put the words there for a reason. God bless you.

 

[Rainie]

What about I Cor 16?

Concerning Mary - habit and tradition are both cruel taskmasters. How much trama can one handle at one time?

Again what about I Cor 16.

What about 1 Cor 16?

Wow, so Mary kept the 7th day Sabbath out of habit and tradition, she was enslaved to those things AFTER Jesus died?

 

[Rainie]

Doesn't it rather limit the prophecies Jesus talked about to Himself? What else could Jesus be referring to when He made the remarks in LK 24:44?

Sorry, can you reword or explain what you think more clearly?

Thanks
In Him- Rain

 

[Rainie]

What do you think you poroved? So, they walked they way they had to, but they were of that dispensation.

Besides the fact that Peter,under the new dispensation said it was a yoke, why did Paul compare Judaism to the same principles as the pagans?

3 In the same way we also, when we (jewish paul)were children, were enslaved to the elementary principles of the world.


9 But now that you ( pagans) have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose slaves you want to be once more?

I await.

Please clarify...

You believe God's Law, spoken from the depths of our Creator, in heavenly realms, is what Paul called the "elementary priciples of the world."

You believe Paul taught that, the 10 commandments spoken, written and commanded by God, are comparable to the ways of pagans?



God's Law is not according to this world at all. God's Law is designed according to the heavenly pattern of things Moses was priveledged enough to see upon the Mount because the people were too fearful to draw near. God's Law is entirely out of this world and beyond the understanding of this world.


Exodus 20

The Ten Commandments

1 And God spoke all these words, saying:
2 “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.
4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
7 “You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
8 “ Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
12 “ Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the LORD your God is giving you.
13 “You shall not murder.
14 “You shall not commit adultery.
15 “You shall not steal.
16 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”


In Him-Rain

 

[Rainie]

Yes, he taught on the Sab..taught what? you prove my point, it was evangelitic in reason. When would alot be gathered?
Why preach to just a few?

As far as the sacrifice, it was James who forced it, read the story in Acts 21. He said he did alot of things for others consciences etc.

Now, what about the question. Why did Paul not want them to keep the Sabbath command in Galatia?

Where does Paul say he doesn't want to keep the Sabbath command in Galatia?

Where does Scripture indicate that James FORCED Paul to go to the Temple and sacrifice etc? If this is so then what of James???

Scriptures please?

In Him- Rain

 

[Rainie]

Yet, others love to say to the jew first. Which way ya goin sis?

I'm not following?

God's Salavation is available to anyone who recieves Him, always has been.

Abraham upon his salvation was a Uncircumsised Gentile, I realize many want to continue down the Christian vs. Jew road or vice versa but I don't agree.

If you are in HIM then you are saved regardless of your circumsision.

Circumsision is a sign of a Covenant NOT a means to acquire SALVATION.

In Him- Rain

 

[Rainie]

IF PAUL PREACHED LAW, WHY DID THE SYNAGOGUE LEADERS GIVE HIM 49 LASHES, MINUS ONE? THAT WAS FOR LAWBREAKING. NO?

Can you direct me towards the specific Scriptures you would like to tackle here?

In Him- Rain

 

[Rainie]

I am sorry but the NT calls Him Jesus. do you have proof that the Greek word rendered Jesus is the Hewbrew word Yahweh? I don;t think so. Jesus (Iēsous) is used 983 times in the NT. How many times is Yahweh used to refer to Jesus? I don't recall once.

John 10:30 is about as badas it gets for proof texting. John is not saying that the Father and Jesus is the same Being. There are to many texts in John alone that say things like:

• the Father loveth the Son
• the Father hath sent Me
• the Father sent Me
• ye neither know Me,nor My Father
• My Father hath taught Me
• the Father hath not left Me
• I have seen with My Father
• I honour My Father
• My Father that honoureth Me
• the Father knoweth Me
• Father save Me
• the Father which sent Me
• cometh unto the Father, but by Me
• the Father said unto Me
• I go unto My Father
• I will pray the Father
• My Father will love him and we will
• the Father will send in My name

Get the idea they are not the same Being?

Frogster, From Scratch since you are on the same page with this:

There is a lot here to cover.

You are right the OT never speaks of "Jesus" because Jesus is not the name Messiah was given or lived with during His life.

However, Yeshua is "Jesus'" Aramaic/Hebrew name, Yeshua is the only name "Jesus" ever heard during His lifetime.

Jesus' parents did not name their baby an English/Greek name when they both spoke Hebrew, that doesn't make sense.

Looking at the original language and having established that Yeshua is the actual name Mary gave to her son.

Matthew 1:21 (New King James Version)

21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS (HEBREW YESHUA), for He will save His people from their sins.”




Let's see if the OT speaks of Yeshua, or of Yeshua as being Yahweh.

*The hebrew word Yeshua is translated "Salavation" in our English Bibles.


Isaiah 12:2



2 Behold, God is my salvation (yĕshuw`ah, aka Yeshua),
I will trust and not be afraid;

‘ For YAH, the LORD (Hebrew Yahh, aka Yahweh), is my strength and song;
He also has become my salvation (yĕshuw`ah, aka Yeshua).’”

Isaiah 62:11 (New King James Version)

11 Indeed the LORD (Hebrew Yahh, aka Yahweh) has proclaimed
To the end of the world:
“ Say to the daughter of Zion,
‘ Surely your salvation (yĕshuw`ah, aka Yeshua) is coming;
Behold, His reward is with Him,
And His work before Him.’”



But let us not stop at the Old Testament (there are more examples there too) but let's go on to the NT and see if Jesus/Yeshua is Lord/Yahweh.

John 1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him...14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.


This is saying that Jesus (aka The Word) is God and all things were made through The Word (Jesus) .


Colossians 1

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

John 10:30 (New King James Version)

30 I and My Father are one.”


Furthermore, if one does not believe that Jesus and God are the same being they no longer believe in Yahweh, who is the ONLY GOD (period).

Deuteronomy 6:4
“Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!"

Mark 12:29
Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one.


I don't understand honestly how any further Scriptures can be debated by you or I, if we can't agree that the LORD IS ONE?????

So perhaps let me know if you do in fact believe the Lord is ONE and I will continue the disscussion with you but if you believe Jesus is a NEW GOD different or seperate from Yahweh then we have truely no common ground to work from. Yahweh does not allow for multiple GODS.

In Him- Rain

 

[Frogster]

Please clarify...

You believe God's Law, spoken from the depths of our Creator, in heavenly realms, is what Paul called the "elementary priciples of the world."

You believe Paul taught that, the 10 commandments spoken, written and commanded by God, are comparable to the ways of pagans?



God's Law is not according to this world at all. God's Law is designed according to the heavenly pattern of things Moses was priveledged enough to see upon the Mount because the people were too fearful to draw near. God's Law is entirely out of this world and beyond the understanding of this world.


Exodus 20

The Ten Commandments

1 And God spoke all these words, saying:
2 “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.
4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
7 “You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
8 “ Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
12 “ Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the LORD your God is giving you.
13 “You shall not murder.
14 “You shall not commit adultery.
15 “You shall not steal.
16 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”


In Him-Rain

Ok rainie, from here on in, let me raise the bar please. Bugkiller, myself, and others, SS and scratch, really know the scriptures, even unto a good amount of memorizing. So when I clearly show, that Paul made a clear comparison of the pagans, to his life in judaism in Gal 4, and you reply with this, it not only wastes time, but it is an insult to our biblical knowledge. Thanks very very much, frog.

 

[Frogster]

Can you direct me towards the specific Scriptures you would like to tackle here?

In Him- Rain

Riaaaaaghtcher..

24 Five times I received at the hands of the Jews the forty lashes less one.