Grace and Predestination

[ArmyMatt]

seriously, to the non-Orthodox, please stop debating/discussing with each other. this is not the place for it.

 

[com7fy8]

His presence and grace torments them.

My opinion is this can be in direct exposure to God's grace shining on a sinner. It can be like how a worm on the sidewalk will burn and be paralyzed by the UV rays of the sun, while those same rays can help a human's skin to make vitamin D for healthy skin and bones . . . if I remember correctly.

But if the worm is under some moist leaves, the worm can feed on nutrients from rotten leaves which still have some sun energy locked in them (from photosynthesis) for the worm to use for energy, somehow, but without being in personal relating and sharing with the sunshine. Maybe this is like how sinners might not be able to stand Jesus, but they benefit a little bit from how God gives them food, but it is used for selfish living, while they miss out on the personal and tender intimacy we can enjoy with God.

 

[Not David]

what sort of church do you attend?

Currently none.

 

[Not David]

He does the same way for the saved, only that since the unsaved want nothing to do with Him, His presence and grace torments them.

I heard it was about heaven and hell. What about here on Earth?

 

[ArmyMatt]

My opinion is this can be in direct exposure to God's grace shining on a sinner. It can be like how a worm on the sidewalk will burn and be paralyzed by the UV rays of the sun, while those same rays can help a human's skin to make vitamin D for healthy skin and bones . . . if I remember correctly.

But if the worm is under some moist leaves, the worm can feed on nutrients from rotten leaves which still have some sun energy locked in them (from photosynthesis) for the worm to use for energy, somehow, but without being in personal relating and sharing with the sunshine. Maybe this is like how sinners might not be able to stand Jesus, but they benefit a little bit from how God gives them food, but it is used for selfish living, while they miss out on the personal and tender intimacy we can enjoy with God.

this is actually really close to what we believe.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I heard it was about heaven and hell. What about here on Earth?

we can here on earth, heaven or hell will just be far greater.

 

[joshua 1 9]

The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition.

The bottomless pit is actually a volcano. There will be an eruption on that day that the beast is revealed. It will be as they say a very busy news day. So much so that people will: "wonder" what is going on. Yet we will know because God told us ahead of time.

Revelation 9:2
"And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit."

 

[Not David]

we can here on earth, heaven or hell will just be far greater.

Maybe an example would be better.

How does a non-Orthodox Christian receives grace?
An Orthodox who left the faith?
Or an Orthodox who does not repent from his sins?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Maybe an example would be better.

How does a non-Orthodox Christian receives grace?
An Orthodox who left the faith?
Or an Orthodox who does not repent from his sins?

God knows.
God knows.
God knows.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Is God's Grace present only for those who God knows will be saved or is it given to the ones who will be unsaved too?

Since it is possible for someone to fall from grace then I would say grace is bestowed on anyone who believes but salvation is only given to those who continue to believe and whom abide in Christ.

I’m sorry I didn’t realize this is the Orthodox only forum. I don’t think I can fully consider myself Orthodox even tho I do believe most of their teachings.

 

[Not David]

@ArmyMatt I will explain it better. I have heard that people who believe in a single predestination says that God gives Grace to those who will be saved but that does not mean God removed free will from them. Is it right or wrong?

 

[ArmyMatt]

@ArmyMatt I will explain it better. I have heard that people who believe in a single predestination says that God gives Grace to those who will be saved but that does not mean God removed free will from them. Is it right or wrong?

sorta wrong, God gives His grace to everyone, but how that works out in someone's life is another question.

but correct in that He doesn't override anyone's freedom.

 

[Not David]

sorta wrong, God gives His grace to everyone, but how that works out in someone's life is another question.

but correct in that He doesn't override anyone's freedom.

I ask because it seems kind of pointless to give Grace to someone who won't be saved.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I ask because it seems kind of pointless to give Grace to someone who won't be saved.

what makes you say it's pointless?

 

[Not David]

what makes you say it's pointless?

Because they won't be saved.

 

[renniks]

God's grace is offered to all. If all responded all would be saved, but most don't.

Is God's Grace present only for those who God knows will be saved or is it given to the ones who will be unsaved too?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Because they won't be saved.

why does that make it pointless?

 

[Not David]

why does that make it pointless?

I don't know how else to explain it Father, God knows those people won't be saved so why give them Grace for?

 

[ArmyMatt]

I don't know how else to explain it Father, God knows those people won't be saved so why give them Grace for?

grace is everywhere present. if grace is God's Uncreated Energies, then grace is what exposes and condemns the sinfulness of the unsaved.

 

[Not David]

grace is everywhere present. if grace is God's Uncreated Energies, then grace is what exposes and condemns the sinfulness of the unsaved.

How does it do that?