Grace and Predestination

[Not David]

Is God's Grace present only for those who God knows will be saved or is it given to the ones who will be unsaved too?

 

[joshua 1 9]

Is God's Grace present only for those who God knows will be saved or is it given to the ones who will be unsaved too?

"He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous." (Matthew 5:45)

 

[Not David]

"He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous." (Matthew 5:45)

Are you saying "sun" means Grace in that verse?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Is God's Grace present only for those who God knows will be saved or is it given to the ones who will be unsaved too?

God's mercy and grace is available to all sinners who believe the gospel and receive Christ as their Saviour. Regardless of all the theories around Predestination and Election, it is, at the bottom line, a mystery and no matter how one tries to interpret it and put it into a hard and fast doctrine, they will fail, because we have only .0000001% of the information we need to make a firm determination of what it actually entails. The rest of the information is held back by God who has not revealed it to us. But we do know that the invitation to believe the Gospel and to receive Christ is given to all - some receive Him and others don't.

 

[St_Worm2]

Is God's Grace present only for those who God knows will be saved or is it given to the ones who will be unsaved too?

Hi David, the Bible tells us that we are saved by God's grace .. e.g. Ephesians 2:8. How does the EOC define "grace" and, in particular I suppose, what is "saving" grace/how is it defined by the EOC?

Thanks!

--David

 

[joshua 1 9]

Are you saying "sun" means Grace in that verse?

I am sure the verse has symbolic meaning, but I am just looking at the literal meaning. God is good to the unjust because He hopes they will come to repentance. Even we are to love our enemy. We are to return good for evil. In the hope that they will come to a saving knowledge of the truth.

 

[Not David]

Hi David, the Bible tells us that we are saved by God's grace .. e.g. Ephesians 2:8. How does the EOC define "grace" and, in particular I suppose, what is "saving" grace/how is it defined by the EOC?

Thanks!

--David

"In the Orthodox Church, grace is identified with the uncreated Energies of God. Among Eastern Christians generally, grace is considered to be the partaking of the Divine Nature described in 2 Peter 1:4" The Divine Grace

 

[joshua 1 9]

Regardless of all the theories around Predestination and Election

God declares the end from the beginning. He watches over His word to be sure that He accomplishes His purpose. There are people that believe that everyone is written in the Book of life from the foundation of the world. They believe that God has to actually blot their name out of His book. "Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous." (psalm69:28) Today we are to pray for everyone in the hope that all come to a saving knowledge of the truth.

Luke 24:44
Jesus said to them, "These are the words I spoke to you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about Me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms."

 

[AMM]

Is God's Grace present only for those who God knows will be saved or is it given to the ones who will be unsaved too?

I submit my answer for correction to others more knowledgable on Orthodoxy, but since no one has responded yet, I'll have a go at it.

God's Grace is for everyone. God also knows who will be saved and who will not be saved. Grace is God in His Energies. And how we experience that is the difference between salvation and damnation. Fire can either warm us or destroy us, but the fire (God) is the same in both cases.

Before Baptism and reception into the Church, the Holy Spirit and grace work from outside us, and the demons reign within us - all of us (those who will be saved and those who will not). After we enter the church, this switches: the Holy Spirit is within us, and grace works from within to cleanse us and purify us, and the demons assault us from outside us.

 

[sdowney717]

God declares the end from the beginning. He watches over His word to be sure that He accomplishes His purpose. There are people that believe that everyone is written in the Book of life from the foundation of the world. They believe that God has to actually blot their name out of His book. "Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous." (psalm69:28) Today we are to pray for everyone in the hope that all come to a saving knowledge of the truth.

Luke 24:44
Jesus said to them, "These are the words I spoke to you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about Me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms."

That Psalm 69 is not what God does though today. That is the response of a man from the OT about the wicked unbelieving Jews in the Old Covenant..which words also show prophetic sayings as it refers to Christ on the cross. Those Jews God destroyed utterly and their religion in 70 AD, with no hope for recovery as the OC has passed away.
The NC does not work like the OC and is built on much better promises.
Today nothing and no one can blot out the names written in the Book of Life of the Lamb.

 

[ArmyMatt]

for our guests, this is the Orthodox forum. you can debate us on here but this is not the place to debate with each other.

to the OP, God's grace is given to the unsaved as well.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Today nothing and no one can blot out the names written in the Book of Life of the Lamb.

Are there two books of life? I was under the understanding that Jesus Judges us for our rewards or crowns. How do we explain the passage in Rev 3:5? How do we explain that our name seems to be in the book of life from the foundation of the world?

Revelation 3:5
Like them, the one who is victorious will be dressed in white. And I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but I will confess his name before My Father and His angels.

 

[sdowney717]

Are there two books of life? I was under the understanding that Jesus Judges us for our rewards or crowns. How do we explain the passage in Rev 3:5? How do we explain that our name seems to be in the book of life from the foundation of the world?

Revelation 3:5
Like them, the one who is victorious will be dressed in white. And I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but I will confess his name before My Father and His angels.

IT does not seem to be, our names are written there, that is what being predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ means, and so then we are saved.

Yes that is correct. God will never blot out his name from the book of life, since those names He wrote in at the beginning. I dont think there is more than one book of life, they are the same book, recall Christ told us, there is no other way to the Father except through Him.

Revelation 13:8
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 17:8
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Since unsaved man is a slave of sin and at enmity with God (hatred), no one would have believed in Christ unless God ordained their faith as His gift.

God did that so the Christ would have many brethren
Romans 8
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

 

[Not David]

I submit my answer for correction to others more knowledgable on Orthodoxy, but since no one has responded yet, I'll have a go at it.

God's Grace is for everyone. God also knows who will be saved and who will not be saved. Grace is God in His Energies. And how we experience that is the difference between salvation and damnation. Fire can either warm us or destroy us, but the fire (God) is the same in both cases.

Before Baptism and reception into the Church, the Holy Spirit and grace work from outside us, and the demons reign within us - all of us (those who will be saved and those who will not). After we enter the church, this switches: the Holy Spirit is within us, and grace works from within to cleanse us and purify us, and the demons assault us from outside us.

Thanks, though it is kind of sad that currently demons reign within me.

 

[Not David]

for our guests, this is the Orthodox forum. you can debate us on here but this is not the place to debate with each other.

to the OP, God's grace is given to the unsaved as well.

How is it give to the unsaved?

 

[com7fy8]

Is God's Grace present only for those who God knows will be saved or is it given to the ones who will be unsaved too?

"For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe." (1 Timothy 4:10)

 

[com7fy8]

How is it give to the unsaved?

One of the best ways is God's grace changes a sinner to become adopted to be a child of God.

Also, by His grace He has people preach to sinners, and be their friends, reaching them with good example.

And God can have mercy on a sinner, by keeping him or her from breaking down emotionally as badly as the person could.

 

[AMM]

Thanks, though it is kind of sad that currently demons reign within me.

what sort of church do you attend?

 

[ArmyMatt]

How is it give to the unsaved?

He does the same way for the saved, only that since the unsaved want nothing to do with Him, His presence and grace torments them.

 

[AMM]

How is it give to the unsaved?

I think com7fy8 seems to touch on it a bit. God's grace converts us to repentance, gives faith to unbelievers, and helps all of us from falling into sin