Grace and Predestination

[ArmyMatt]

How does it do that?

grace is the Light of the Transfiguration. if you are eternally unrepentant in that Light, no sin is hidden.

 

[Not David]

grace is the Light of the Transfiguration. if you are eternally unrepentant in that Light, no sin is hidden.

That Light is not present to the unrepentant here on Earth though.

 

[ArmyMatt]

That Light is not present to the unrepentant here on Earth though.

sure it is. just because it's not visible doesn't mean it's not there.

 

[BNR32FAN]

sorta wrong, God gives His grace to everyone, but how that works out in someone's life is another question.

but correct in that He doesn't override anyone's freedom.

I hope this isn’t too far off topic but the scriptures say that believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption. I believe this simply means that a person will always be convicted of sin because they know what God’s expectations are, but if a person disregards the guidance of the Holy Spirit and continuously indulges in sin without repentance then that person will not receive eternal life. So just because a person is sealed with the Holy Spirit doesn’t mean that they are guaranteed to receive eternal life. Would you agree?

 

[ArmyMatt]

I hope this isn’t too far off topic but the scriptures say that believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption. I believe this simply means that a person will always be convicted of sin because they know what God’s expectations are, but if a person disregards the guidance of the Holy Spirit and continuously indulges in sin without repentance then that person will not receive eternal life. So just because a person is sealed with the Holy Spirit doesn’t mean that they are guaranteed to receive eternal life. Would you agree?

pretty much, yes.

 

[prodromos]

I’m sorry I didn’t realize this is the Orthodox only forum. I don’t think I can fully consider myself Orthodox even tho I do believe most of their teachings

This forum was created to allow debate between Orthodox and non Orthodox, so it definitely isn't Orthodox only . I think we are the only ones who encourage debate.
What we don't need here is non Orthodox debating each other. General Theology is the place for that.

 

[com7fy8]

God's grace is given to the unsaved as well.

Included, here, possibly we can point out how our Heavenly Father gave His own Son, because of His love for the whole world. So, God was loving any and all people, by sending Jesus here on earth.

And Jesus says we are the light of the world. Possibly, this means we can minister God's grace.

grace is the Light of the Transfiguration.

Maybe it is like sunlight. The same light goes to a living tree and the sun's light energy is changed by photosynthesis to become life energy in the plant.

But that same loving sunshine can burn a worm on the sidewalk.

Or > that same sunshine can dry out the leaves of a tree with bad roots. The sunshine can harden the leaves and branches of a tree with bad roots. But the same sunshine going into a healthy tree can help the tree to draw up more water and have even fruit which becomes softer with ripening.

But it is not the fault of the sunshine, then, how certain trees become drier and more and more hardened in the sunlight.

How is it give to the unsaved?

He does the same way for the saved, only that since the unsaved want nothing to do with Him, His presence and grace torments them.

To go with what you are saying, here > how about this? >

"God resists the proud," we have in James 4:6 and also in 1 Peter 5:5.

Our pride can have us upset and downcast when God effectively resists our stupid and selfish activities. But God's resistance can be caring, slowing us down or even stopping us in our tracks . . . so we don't get into ever worse trouble, by going the way pride would take us. And when we do get upset and downcast about not getting our own way, this can be a warning that we are not living in God's love and leading in "rest for your souls." (in Matthew 11:28-30) And so, we can stop and trust God to correct us and get us back into sweet and sensitive sharing with Him and submitting to how He guides us in His peace, and discover what He has us doing.

But a sinner can be stubborn without end, even acting out against how God caringly resists him or her. And, like you might mean . . . included along with other possible meanings > the persistently proud person can get deeper in emotional trouble of reacting against God.

But God's resistance against the proud person can also be for the good of others. So, God's grace is all-loving, not only on an individual isolated basis. What He does for others can be for your good. And if we love others as ourselves, we can benefit from how God blesses others.

But the proud person might not appreciate how God is blessing someone close to the sinner, and so he or she might not benefit from how God's grace benefits someone close to the proud person.

Also, God's grace going to an enemy can pass on to someone else who does benefit from God blessing

So, all God does is never in vain. And this goes for us, too > whatsoever we do with God is not in vain > 1 Corinthians 15:58.

 

[ArmyMatt]

that same sunshine can dry out the leaves of a tree with bad roots. The sunshine can harden the leaves and branches of a tree with bad roots. But the same sunshine going into a healthy tree can help the tree to draw up more water and have even fruit which becomes softer with ripening.

bingo

 

[roman2819]

Is God's Grace present only for those who God knows will be saved or is it given to the ones who will be unsaved too?

God knows who will repent, but this does not mean He chose them to do so. God calls everyone to repent, and each of us has to respond.

If we interpret Bible in context, God did not choose individuals to redeem, as some people erroneously claimed. Ephesians chapter 1,2,3 explain predestination in 70 verses: It is corporate predestination, which means God offered redemption to Jews first, and then the Gentiles -- which together means everyone. God offers to redeem all, but in the context of the Scripture, each one must decide whether to repent and turn to Him. Predestination is so misunderstood because people are so awed by words such as "He predestine us" and fail to see context.

Ephesians was written to Gentile Christians. Speaking as a Jew, Paul identified with his people by using the adverb 'we' and 'us' to say how God first chose the Jews:

[Eph 1:4-11] just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world ... having been predestined according to the plan of him …. (12) in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, ...(13).. Weren't the Jews the first to hope in Jesus?

Then when referring to the Gentiles, the apostle used the adverb "you" and "you who were Gentiles":

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth …... Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and “uncircumcised” ….. excluded from citizenship in Israel… (Eph 2:13) ..... For He... has made the two groups one... His purpose was... in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross… (3:18)... This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ."

Before Jesus atonement, the Gentiles did not have access to Jehovah. But after Christ’s atonement, both Jews and Gentiles have access to God. This move has been pre-planned or predestined by God. Predestination just means to pre-plan something. More important is what did God pre-plan?

We know that initially Israel was the chosen people of God. After Christ's atonement, the apostles initially thought that God chose to save the Jews only. After Peter's vision, however, the Gentiles were allowed to believe too. But as more Gentile Christians started to outnumber the Jewish believers, the Jews resented it and insisted that Gentiles should observe Sabbath and circumcision. Jews also claimed that God had suddenly decided to offer redemption to the Gentiles after Israel rejected Jesus, implying that Gentiles were less favored. Refuting such allegation, Paul said that God does not show favoritism between the circumcised and uncircumcised [Galatians 2:6].

In Ephesians, the apostle refers to Gentiles as the Elect [Eph 1], thus placing them on equal footing as the Jews (who are chosen). Elect or chosen is a status, it does not mean being chosen to be saved individually.

In the beginning -- before the foundation of earth -- God chose the Jews, but now the Gentiles are also part of the Elect. "Before the foundation of the earth" just means "initially". It is unfortunate that some people are so awed by the words "before foundation of the earth" and "predestination" because they do not interpret in context.

In Romans 9:11, God said He loves Jacob and hate Esau. God was referring to these 2 persons only, specifically, so how does this extend to chosen - and not being chosen - of everyone else? How does Romans 9:11 become a blanket statement ??? Seriously.

In Romans, Paul as a Jew saluted Israel's heritage, but he went on to say the new order is here, things have changed, get used to it.

Romans 9:18-23: Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth .... " While the Jews were shocked that God offered redemption to Gentiles, Paul said that God could choose to have mercy on Gentiles. It does NOT mean that God has mercy on some particular individuals and choose them. In the larger context of the Scripture, each one has to decide to repent and turn to God.

"For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son... He who predestined, He also justifies" [Romans 8:29] means that God foreknew that He would offer redemption to the Gentiles. Although they used to be considered uncleaned by the Jews, however, after Christ's atonement, the Gentiles can choose to be conformed to Christ. They are also justified by faith in Jesus.

Also, take note that Jesus during his ministry never spoke about God chose individuals to be redeemed.

When seen in context, Scripture interprets Scripture well, by itself.

 

[trulytheone]

that same sunshine can dry out the leaves of a tree with bad roots. The sunshine can harden the leaves and branches of a tree with bad roots. But the same sunshine going into a healthy tree can help the tree to draw up more water and have even fruit which becomes softer with ripening.

And that, I believe, is how one should understand the passage: "God hardens the heart of Pharaoh."

 

[ArmyMatt]

And that, I believe, is how one should understand the passage: "God hardens the heart of Pharaoh."

that's basically how Nyssa sees it

 

[joshua 1 9]

"He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous." (Matthew 5:45)

The grace of God gives us the power and the strength to live the live He is calling us to live.

 

[roman2819]

And that, I believe, is how one should understand the passage: "God hardens the heart of Pharaoh."

Many Christians have wondered whether God caused Pharaoh to refuse to release the Hebrew slaves from slavery in Egypt. Puzzled by the words "I shall hardened Pharaoh's heart and he shall not let them go," we debate over this issue. Consider the following:

Egypt was the most advanced civilization at that time, and Pharaoh was king, He was commander of a powerful army, with over hundreds of thousands of soldiers, cavalry and chariots. Would such a powerful figure listen to Moses? To a person (Moses) standing with only a stuff in his hand, would the authoritarian say, “Ok prophet, I will let your people go as you demand”? Think about it and the answer is obviously no. Why would he listen to a lone ranger?

In fact, an Egyptian pharaoh was considered to be half-god half-human. The Egyptians worshipped other gods, not Jehovah. No doubt the king and his people heard the Hebrew slaves' belief that the God of Jacob would lead them out of slavery one day but without seeing Jehovah's might before, the pharaoh would not believe Moses. Among the Hebrews, many must have wondered whether God would really rescue them.

The Pharaoh could not afford to let the slaves go unless he had a death wish or wanted to abdicate. There were about 1/4 million Hebrew slaves; they were servants at Egyptian households, they labored at the pyramids and did work that are shunned by the Egyptians. Would the Pharaoh dare to incur his people’s wrath by letting slaves go? He will be seen as a weak imbecile for listening to Moses who had no army. Would he do that?

Consider the above factors and we will see that God need not harden Pharaoh's heart. The latter had no reasons to fear God - not yet.Why then did the Bible say God harden his heart?

For virtually all events, the Scriptures would only sum them up in a few words. The Bible doesn't explain the above in detail. It is not trying to be a novel that describe details. While reading, we have to consider human elements, think about how things happened, what people did, and how they feel. The Scriptures does not delve into details about how people feel or how things unfold gradually at ground level. Instead, whatever that happened - layers and layers of human drama and interaction - is just stated in a few words.

And the words of Scriptures assert God’s sovereignty. To say that He hardened Pharaoh is a manner of writing that asserts His sovereignty. The Scripture portrays God as active, as if He causes all things to happen, even if He only allowed them. Such was the way of writing during biblical times. The writers did not distinguish between whether God cause or allow something to happen -- unlike the way we analyzed today. We have to understand their mindset. In Judah and Ephraim, when the Israelites continued to indulge in idolatry, Isaiah lamented, "Why, Lord, do you make us wander from your ways and harden our hearts so we do not revere you? ?" [Isaiah 63:17] However, this does not mean God literally cause then to harden. It is just the way the Hebrews use words as they write Scriptures.

Today, too many of us read words only -- and try to analyze words only. We try to think up many theories to explain tough issues, such as how God hardened Pharaoh's heart. However, we will do better to know that it was simply they write.

From this perspective, even the tough issue of Judas betrayal can be understood, that it is not God who cause Judas to betray Jesus. It was his own act. However, the timing of the betrayal was managed by the Lord.