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Gothic // Sub-Culture - Views Please

Discussion in 'Archived - Ethics & Morality' started by orangefunkyradio, Jan 9, 2007.

  1. Robbie_James_Francis

    Robbie_James_Francis May all beings have happiness and its causes

    +607
    Humanist
    Single
    Is your teenager a member of an ancient Germanic tribe originating in Scandanavia?

    Does he or she sacrifice captives to the god of war?

    Do they insist on spending time alone in the 3rd and 4th centuries?

    Do they always manage to find time to sack ancient European cities?

    If any of these apply to your son or daughter then you really should be worried. ;)

    peace
     
  2. wanderingone

    wanderingone I'm not lost I'm just wandering

    +844
    Lutheran
    Married
    US-Others
    LOL, my mom still laughs about our neighbor who tearfully took her aside one day and said she had to "sadly inform her .." that I was playing Dungeons and Dragons and provided her with "literature" about the denomic meaning of it. My mom was quite a supporter of my D & D addiction for the year or so I was into it.
     
  3. Argent

    Argent Well-Known Member

    +136
    Baptist
    US-Libertarian
    I dont' usually respond to newbies who make one post and then disappear, but you bring up an important point in the Christian faith: God examines the heart and soul and our relationship with him. The style or sub-culture of dress we choose is a matter of taste, not faith.

    I know some preppies whose hearts are darker than any goth's eyeliner.
     
  4. marblehead

    marblehead Veteran

    +141
    Atheist
    Worried?...Is there something wrong with those things?:D
     
  5. Robbie_James_Francis

    Robbie_James_Francis May all beings have happiness and its causes

    +607
    Humanist
    Single
    Interesting. I'd have thought they'd have been more along these lines...

    Does your child not wear band/music t-shirts?

    Does your child spend insufficient time alone with friends?

    Does he or she refrain from drinking alcohol?

    Behaves too much at school?

    Does not express an interest in sex?

    Is straight?

    ...;) :D

    peace
     
  6. JadeTigress

    JadeTigress Senior Member

    +89
    Agnostic
    In Relationship
    US-Libertarian
    This list makes me giggle. The only things that don't apply to me are:

    - Is homosexual and/or bisexual
    - Wears pins, stickers or anything else that contains these various phrases: "I'm so gothic, I'm dead", "woe is me", "I'm a goth"
    - Claims to be a goth

    And I think I'm a pretty decent person...despite all the Satan worship. :p
     
  7. Steezie

    Steezie Guest

    +0
    This is laughably pathetic. Theres so many general items on the list that ANY teenager could fall under these categories.

    -Frequently wears black clothing.
    I do, I look good in black

    -Wears band and/or rock t-shirts.
    So ANYBODDY that wears these are Goth?

    -Wears excessive black eye makeup, lipstick or nailpolish.
    What if they are female?

    -Wears any odd, silver jewelry or symbols. Some of these include: reversed crosses, pentagrams, pentacles, ankhs or various other Satanic worshipping symbols.
    What is "odd" jewelry?

    -Shows an interest in piercings or tattoos.
    Approximately 80% of the population of the US has atleast one piercing or tattoo. What does that prove?

    -Listens to gothic or any other anti-social genres of music. (Marilyn Manson claims to be the anti-Christ, and publicly speaks against the Lord. Please discard any such albums IMMEDIATELY.)

    What are "anti-social genres of music"? Personally I think you spook too easily. Some doof claims to be the anti-Christ and you run screaming?

    -Associates with other people that dress, act or speak eccentrically.
    Again, what is "eccentrically"?

    -Shows a declining interest in wholesome activities, such as: the Bible, prayer, church or sports.
    And what if they just arent interested in such things anyore?

    -Shows an increasing interest in death, vampires, magic, the occult, witchcraft or anything else that involves Satan.
    Besides this being an overly arrogant statement, an interest in such things is not indicitive of Goth status

    -Takes drugs.

    MANY people who do drugs arent "Goth"

    -Drinks alcohol.

    See previous answer

    -Is suicidal and/or depressed.

    As are about 90% of teenagers

    -Cuts, burns or partakes in any other method of self-mutilation. (This is a Satanic ritual that uses pain to detract from the light of God and His love. Please seek immediate attention for this at your local mental health center.)

    You cant be serious. Self-mutilation is not a Satanic ritual nor has it ever been. It is something that needs to be adressed, but by mental health professionals, not by clergy.

    -Complains of boredom.

    What the....I havent met a kid who DIDNT complain of boredom atleast once a day

    -Sleeps too excessively or too little.

    And there could be NO other explanation of this, IE: Poor diet, anemia, hard work, long days etc etc.

    -Is excessively awake during the night.

    What is "excessively awake"? And restlessness could also be due to a medical condition, a high percentage of Americans dont sleep enough.

    -Dislikes sunlight or any other form of light. (This pertains to vampires promoting the idea that His light is of no use.)

    Again, this could also be due to a medical condition and should be thoroughly investigated by a doctor NOT a clergyman
    -Demands an unusual amount of privacy.

    -Spends large amounts of time alone.

    What if he/she simply prefers to be alone?

    -Requests time alone and quietness. (This is so that your child may speak to evil sprits through meditation.)

    This is insane. Everyboddy needs alone time at one point or annother. What do you suggest a parent does, lock thier children to the leg of the couch?

    -Insists on spending time with friends while unaccompanied by an adult.

    Yes, how DARE they wish for relaxation

    -Disregards authority figures; teachers, priests, nuns and elders are but a few examples of this.

    So a behavior that pretty much all teenagers engage in is a sign of evil?

    -Misbehaves at school.

    As do ALL kids

    -Misbehaves at home.

    As do all kids

    -Eats goth-related foods. Count Dracula cereal is an example of this.

    Goth related foods? Count Dracula cereal? Give me a break, its [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth] CEREAL!

    -Drinks blood or expresses an interest in drinking blood. (Vampires believe this is how to attain Satan. This act is very dangerous and should be stopped immediately.)
    Drinking blood isnt something that can be done in great quantities. Blood makes the stomach trigger a regurgitative reflex. With time and training you can overcome it enough to maybe drink a small cup. Trust me, its not an activity you can engage in too often without seriously regretting it.

    -Watches cable television or any other corrupted media sources. (Ask your local church for proper programs that your child may watch.)

    Yes, discourage your children from doing anything that connects them to the outside world.

    -Plays videos games that contains violence or are of a role-playing nature.

    See previous answer.

    -Uses the internet excessively and frequently makes time for the computer.

    What if they are interested in computers?

    -Makes Satanic symbols and/or violently shakes head to music.

    What? Head-banging is Satanic, give me a break

    -Dances to music in a provocative or sexual manner.

    Im not seeing a problem

    -Expresses an interest in sex.

    Yes, because natural desires are EVIL!

    -Masturbates

    As does nearly every single bloody teenager from here to Honalulu and back

    -Is homosexual and/or bisexual.

    Wait wait wait what? Ive met ONE bisexual goth in my entire life. How does that stand?

    -Pursues dangerous cult religions. Such include: Satanism, Scientology, Philosophy, Paganism, Wicca, Hinduism and Buddhism
    .
    NOW you're starting to push buttons, have a little respect IF you dont mind

    -Wears pins, stickers or anything else that contains these various phrases: "I'm so gothic, I'm dead", "woe is me", "I'm a goth".
    Im still not getting why this is such a bad thing

    -Claims to be a goth.

    See previous answer


    I would like to see a parent bring a kid into a mental health center "My child is Goth according to this list that some random stranger gave me online" Makes me curious to see how hard they'd laugh
     
  8. tocis

    tocis Warrior of Thor

    +109
    Other Religion
    Married
    Hey, this is fun...

    Does my ancestry count? Think about your answer... *wields hammer*

    Yup, captive bottles of mead. With some bucks per bottle as casualties of war. :D

    In my imagination, for sure.

    Time aplenty. It's just that such a city is hard to find these days...

    Sorry couldn't resist :p
     
  9. SallyNow

    SallyNow Blame it on the SOCK GNOMES!

    +841
    Christian
    Private
    I'm bored, so I'm going to go through this point by point.


    -Frequently wears black clothing.
    You mean, the current style of sweet, cute black skirts with black tights and shoes? Or wears the classic black dress? Or how about black slacks and sweater?
    -Wears band and/or rock t-shirts.
    Like U2?
    -Wears excessive black eye makeup, lipstick or nailpolish.
    You mean, like vintage 80's style?
    -Wears any odd, silver jewelry or symbols. Some of these include: reversed crosses, pentagrams,
    pentacles, ankhs or various other Satanic worshipping symbols.
    You mean like Saint Peter's Cross, a Christian symbol? Or old Egyptian symbols, like the ankh?
    -Shows an interest in piercings or tattoos.
    You mean like a butterfly on the ankle? Or ear piercings? Or how about nose piercings that millions and millions of law-abiding citizens have?
    -Listens to gothic or any other anti-social genres of music. (Marilyn Manson claims to be the anti-Christ, and publicly speaks against the Lord. Please discard any such albums IMMEDIATELY.)
    Uh... riiiight
    -Associates with other people that dress, act or speak eccentrically.
    ACK! RUN! ARTISTS! SCIENTISTS! ACTORS! DIRECTORS! SINGERS! WRITERS! COMPUTER ENGINEERS! RUUUN!
    -Shows a declining interest in wholesome activities, such as: the Bible, prayer, church or sports.
    How is the Bible an activity? And as for prayer... read up on Matthew 6:5...
    -Shows an increasing interest in death, vampires, magic, the occult, witchcraft or anything else that involves Satan.
    Death? You mean... like mystery novels, such as the Sherlock Holmes series? Vampires... you mean like Dracula, a classic novel? Magic and witchcraft... like The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe? And you know... the Bible discusses Satan...
    -Takes drugs.
    Like... Tylonal? Advil? Antibiotics?
    -Drinks alcohol.
    Yah, those kids who drink a glass of wine at New Year's Eve are so horrible, they are following their parent's example of responsible social drinking!
    -Is suicidal and/or depressed.
    That is a psychiatric problem, and a doctor should be consulted immediatly.
    -Cuts, burns or partakes in any other method of self-mutilation. (This is a Satanic ritual that uses pain to detract from the light of God and His love. Please seek immediate attention for this at your local mental health center.)
    That is a psychiatric problem, and a doctor should be consulted immediatly. It usually has nothing to do with Satanic worship, but instead, deep depression. Calling 911 would be the best idea if you find your child - or anyone else - in an act of self mutilation.
    -Complains of boredom.
    Kids get bored easily. They need more to do, not less.
    -Sleeps too excessively or too little.
    Again, this could be a medical problem, and should be dealt with by a doctor. It also could be that the child is one of the rare people that just doesn't need much sleep.
    -Is excessively awake during the night.
    Some people are early birds, some people are night owls. Nothing wrong with either.
    -Dislikes sunlight or any other form of light. (This pertains to vampires promoting the idea that His light is of no use.)
    You mean, like if they are pale and don't want to get sunburned? Or if they have sensitive eyes? Or migraines? Or anything else that should be dealt with medically?
    -Demands an unusual amount of privacy.
    As in, a usual teenager
    -Spends large amounts of time alone.
    Some people are social, some are shy, some enjoy lots of time with others, other like high-quality but small-quanity time with others. Nothing to do with evil, just with personality.
    -Requests time alone and quietness. (This is so that your child may speak to evil sprits through meditation.)
    Or pray, or study, or read, or gets headaches, or needs to have an area free of distractions to relax, or...
    -Insists on spending time with friends while unaccompanied by an adult.
    You mean, like going to PG-rated movies? Or going for walks? Or how about playing monopoly? How is a kid going to learn to be responsible if they can't even watch a movie without a parent hovering over them?

    -Disregards authority figures; teachers, priests, nuns and elders are but a few examples of this.
    Disregards as in disrespects? That's just bratty.
    -Misbehaves at school.
    Actually, this could be a psychiatric problem
    -Misbehaves at home.
    Ditto
    -Eats goth-related foods. Count Dracula cereal is an example of this.
    Oh come on! This has GOT to be troll post! I'll continue anyways...
    -Drinks blood or expresses an interest in drinking blood. (Vampires believe this is how to attain Satan. This act is very dangerous and should be stopped immediately.)
    No, call your local psychiatric unit, and also your GP: a blood test is needed to check your child for STD's
    -Watches cable television or any other corrupted media sources. (Ask your local church for proper programs that your child may watch.)
    AAAA! RUN! THE NEWS! LAW AND ORDER! UGLY BETTY! PBS! THEY WILL CORRUPT YOUR CHILD"S MIND WITH MAKING THEM THINK ABOUT THINGS!!!!!!!! DON"T WANT YOUR CHILD TO BE THINKING< DO YOU???
    -Plays videos games that contains violence or are of a role-playing nature.
    Role-playing is a healthy and natural stage for children to go through. And those programs your local church will recommend with contain people called "actors" who role-play...
    -Uses the internet excessively and frequently makes time for the computer.
    Yah, talking to friends is a bad thing... and so is researching... knowledge is bad... *rolls eyes*
    -Makes Satanic symbols and/or violently shakes head to music.
    Oh please, your grandparents did that...
    -Dances to music in a provocative or sexual manner.
    Like The Twist?
    -Expresses an interest in sex.
    Yah, natural and healthy curiosity and knowledge is bad, we've been over this already...:sick:
    -Masturbates
    Riiight...
    -Is homosexual and/or bisexual.
    Yes, because talking to your child about the issue would hurt...
    -Pursues dangerous cult religions. Such include: Satanism, Scientology, Philosophy, Paganism, Wicca, Hinduism and Buddhism.
    Philosophy is not a religion, it is a academic subject regarding knowledge. Hinduism and Buddhism are very old religions
    -Wears pins, stickers or anything else that contains these various phrases: "I'm so gothic, I'm dead", "woe is me", "I'm a goth".
    Isn't "woe is me" about... oh... 500 years old?
    -Claims to be a goth.
    Finally! Something that actually points to a child being goth!

    If five or more of these apply to your child, please intervene immediately. The gothic culture is dangerous and Satan thrives within it. If any of these problems persist, enlist your child into your local mental health center.
    No, take yourself there. :doh:
     
  10. brea

    brea Regular Member

    134
    +18
    Agnostic
    Married
    US-Democrat
    So, every adolescent in America is goth.....who knew?!?! ;)

    I honestly think that someone did this as a spoof or a joke or whatever. Sure, some of the stuff sounds like things that fundies would say, but others, not so much. I've been exposed to plenty of fundie 'literature' in my time, and this just doesn't sound like it to me.

    And I must wonder..."Expresses an interest in sex."

    Apparently, the parents themselves are goth, being that they are responsible for the creation of the child in question, lol ;)
     
  11. Spherical Time

    Spherical Time Reality has a well known Liberal bias.

    +214
    Atheist
    Single
    UK-Liberal-Democrats
    Hey. I'm gay and like D&D. You'd be surprised how many of us there are out there.
     
  12. Verv

    Verv Senior Veteran

    +574
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    In Relationship
    US-Republican
    NOTE: I do not want this to be taken the wrong way. This is not meant to be offensive to gothic people. Rather, I am pointing out my personal experiences. Furthermore, in this I mention the skinhead lifestyle, and a lot of people are unaware that the racist element within this movement is by far outnumbered by anti-racist elements [see SHARP or Antifa skinheads, who in name oppose all forms of racism]. I am merely stating my personal experiences of the last 10 years as well as observations that I think are useful to parents.

    I think that the concern is one's kids is legitimate, and one would not really want your kid to be associated with the gothic subculture...

    (on a side note:But then again, in today's society, you probably do not want your kid to be associated with any mainstream subculture for that matter.)

    I think that there are legitimate concerns if your kid is gothic... A gothic student committed suicide at my school, I know gothic people who participated in group sex activities and took absurd amounts of drugs in highschool.

    Being a goth and running with the crowd is potentially negative if they are anything like they were in 1996-2003.

    I think if your kid were to be involved in the punk, skinhead, or hardcore subcultures there is a much better chance of them turning out well. I've been a skin (non-racist) for five years. I think the risks associated with these subcultures are far less being that it is usually just some drinking, maybe an occasional fight, and generally people have normal relationships for their ages with the opposite sex, and it is still a subculture that is lively and musical.

    There is even an entire hardcore movement called Straight Edge that advocates zero drug or alcohol use, vegetarian lifestyle, and no promiscuous sex. There is also a significant Christian hardcore movement and even a 'Christian Hardcore Brotherhood.'

    As someone who flirts with these subcultures daily, having invested the last 10 years of my life amongst punks, skins, and hardcore kids, it really is not that bad.

    I have known, personally, two goths who have committed suicide and many goths who are currently wallowing in all sorts of depravity.
     
  13. Zimfan

    Zimfan Well-Known Member

    868
    +45
    Protestant
    Engaged
    US-Libertarian
    I was a bit worried reading that list until I saw "-Eats goth-related foods. Count Dracula cereal is an example of this."

    Being a Frankenberry man myself I guess I'm safe after all. :D
     
  14. Eudaimonist

    Eudaimonist I believe in life before death!

    +2,591
    Atheist
    Private
    US-Libertarian
    True, I personally am straight, but when I was in college two very good friends of mine who I played D&D and other RPGs with happened to be a gay couple.

    I've never seen RPGs as somehow an inherently "straight" activity.


    eudaimonia,

    Mark
     
  15. marblehead

    marblehead Veteran

    +141
    Atheist
    I have never considered myself goth or any other type of label.

    I'm not going to go through the whole list in the OP because it's ridiculous, I will just post my experiences.

    Then:
    I spent my whole childhood in therapy including some mental hospitals.

    Although I was in honors classes in school I ended up getting suspended constantly mostly for fighting or other forms of acting up. I also skipped school a lot, and as a result I spent a few days locked up in juvenile detention and had to do community service, boot camp and probation. I was allowed to drop out of high school right after I turned 16 and get my GED.

    I had a lot of depression and anxiety throughout my teens. I did a fair amount of drugs and drinking and started smoking, basically anything I could get my hands on. I used to also cut myself. Of course I liked/like sex too.

    The music that I really got into was Marilyn Manson, Nine Inch Nails, them and other music I've found I like since. Music helped me through the tough, and even not so tough times.

    I did used to dress in all black, band shirts, make up and some cross-dressing. Some of that got me suspended from school too. I had long dyed black hair (see profile pic) and also spent some time with a shaved head and spiked hair.

    I did used to wear anti-christian clothes and jewelry.

    I hung out with people who influenced me badly, I was also a bad influence.

    I was a little curious about satanism and the occult, but mostly curious about death, especially suicide, anything dark or depressing, and drugs.

    I did, and still do spend a lot of time alone. I did, and still do block out the sunlight in from my windows. I used to have really messed sleeping patterns.


    Now:
    I still like Marilyn Manson and Nine Inch Nails, but my music collection is more diverse now. My favorite genre is industrial, but I like some music in genres like idm, goth rock, ambient, some various forms of metal, and others.

    I dress somewhat "normal" now, not all black, no cross-dressing or make up, and at the moment only have two band shirts. My hair is also very plain a short.

    I haven't been in therapy or on meds for awhile, and it's been almost 4 years since I last cut myself. I also don't get in fights anymore.

    I've quit smoking and hardly ever drink or do drugs.

    Now I go to my local community college and enjoy it.



    After reading this some may think I'm depraved or insane. I honestly think I would've ended up much worse off if I didn't have the music, friends, family and other things I had back then.
    I do not regret nor feel ashamed of my past, it's made me who I am today.

    The fact that I was and still feel like an outcast continuously makes me examine what kind of person I am and would like to be, and how I treat and think I should treat others.

    All of this has shaped who I am, and no amount of someone judging me will change that.

    The whole list in the OP may be a joke or may actually be serious (I know there are people out there who think like that). Either way I'm all for helping kids out, but being hysterical and saying things about satan and depravity seems counterproductive. I think it'd be better that instead of being paranoid parents would talk to their kids in a calm and respectful manner, listen to their kids, and be logical in the decisions they make...not trying to get their kids to change by forcing religion on them (a move that will likely backfire).

    People should try not to judge others based appearances and what music they listen to. I know we all judge others based on appearances, and are sometimes right about a person when we do, but when it's to the point of assuming all sorts of things about that person without really talking to and understanding them then it's a problem.


    That's it, sorry for the length of the post. :sorry: :D
     
  16. kopilo

    kopilo Envisioner

    +101
    Christian
    As someone who is Straight edge, just to clarify the vegetarianism came in after the foundations, it is possible to be straight edge without being a vegan or vegetarian..

    Source (song): Straight edge by Minor Threat
     
  17. TooCurious

    TooCurious Kitten with a ball of string

    +216
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    In Relationship
    US-Democrat
    jmverville, it sounds to me like you just knew a particularly bad group of goths. My experiences have been nothing at all like yours. When I was in high school (late '90's) the goth kids I knew were in honors-level classes, polite and well-behaved, stable, and generally in committed relationships. We had one goth couple who were the most adorable couple you could have asked for. The groups far more likely to get in trouble or experiment sexually were the preppie/popular kids. After high school, the people in the goth movement that I've encountered have been intelligent, mature, self-aware individuals. There is nothing inherent in the goth subculture itself that makes a person more likely to get in trouble, experiment sexually, or kill himself. People don't kill themselves because they're "goth." People kill themselves because they have problems and don't know how to deal with them. They may at first seek out a subculture that will understand and accept "misfits" like them, and that may help for a while, but no subculture can provide psychological counseling or the kind of help that people with suicidal tendencies need.

    I think you probably had experiences with a particularly bad group of goths. Presumably, as you are part of another subculture that has strongly-negative and more positive groups within it, you understand that something similar can be true of other subcultures?

    Certainly, blindly following ANY subculture is not an exceptionally desirable thing. However, parents need not worry if their child adopts the musical or fashion tastes of the goth subculture, as long as those parents have a solid, open, trusting relationship with their child. Alienating a child with accusations of satanism and throwing away belongings is counterproductive to developing this sort of relationship.
     
  18. Pseudopadoz

    Pseudopadoz New Member

    11
    +1
    Atheist
    Single
    US-Republican
    There is certainly nothing wrong with being Gothic in my book. I know a great deal of goths, because for some reason, my school has an unusually high concentration of those styling themselves as goths, and yet, of all of them, it seems that no more are "Bad," than I would expect out of mainstream students. Now, I do have an issue with certain aspects of these Goths and Emos (Whom I count as a subset of goth, because they seem to be amazingly similar), namely the fact that too many of them think that by virtue of being Gothic, they are inherently more creative, original, intelligent, and independent than people like me - in other words, people who dress like they want to instead of like their little clique friends.
     
  19. Verv

    Verv Senior Veteran

    +574
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    In Relationship
    US-Republican
    Thank you for that. And yes, I see that. :) I see a very large amount of people who are vegetarian in addition to being straight edge.

    I see what you are saying, but here is a question:

    If someone is willing to commit suicide, is it more likely for that person to be a goth?

    I think that for some people being gothic is a method of expressing their sadness and frustration. For others, it is really a fashion and a way of life.

    I am sure there are good goths, I have known a few who were very intellectual and honors classes students, but at the same time... I have known others with problems.
     
  20. TooCurious

    TooCurious Kitten with a ball of string

    +216
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    Honestly, I have no idea, as I've never seen statistics on the subject. Not in my experience, certainly. However, I think it is worth noting that correlation does not imply causation.

    I think in every subculture or large social group, you'll get a spectrum of people that runs the gamut from truly wonderful to truly screwed-up.
     
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