Gothic // Sub-Culture - Views Please

[orangefunkyradio]

Hello all I have joined up with this site in order to hear some views on a topic i have. For you people who use Myspace, you will know of the Bulletin page. I read one sent by a friend eariler, and it has got me thinking. Please read on:

If Your Child is a Gothic, Reform Through the Lord!

Listed below are some warning signs to indicate if your child may have gone astray from the Lord. Gothic (or goth) is a very obscure and often dangerous culture that young teenagers are prone to participating in.
The gothic culture leads young, susceptible minds into an imagined world of evil, darkness, and violence. Please seek immediate attention through counselling, prayer, and parental guidance to rid your child of Satan's temptations if five or more of the following are applicable to your child:

-Frequently wears black clothing.
-Wears band and/or rock t-shirts.
-Wears excessive black eye makeup, lipstick or nailpolish.
-Wears any odd, silver jewelry or symbols. Some of these include: reversed crosses, pentagrams, pentacles, ankhs or various other Satanic worshipping symbols.
-Shows an interest in piercings or tattoos.
-Listens to gothic or any other anti-social genres of music. (Marilyn Manson claims to be the anti-Christ, and publicly speaks against the Lord. Please discard any such albums IMMEDIATELY.)
-Associates with other people that dress, act or speak eccentrically.
-Shows a declining interest in wholesome activities, such as: the Bible, prayer, church or sports.
-Shows an increasing interest in death, vampires, magic, the occult, witchcraft or anything else that involves Satan.
-Takes drugs.
-Drinks alcohol.
-Is suicidal and/or depressed.
-Cuts, burns or partakes in any other method of self-mutilation. (This is a Satanic ritual that uses pain to detract from the light of God and His love. Please seek immediate attention for this at your local mental health center.)
-Complains of boredom.
-Sleeps too excessively or too little.
-Is excessively awake during the night.
-Dislikes sunlight or any other form of light. (This pertains to vampires promoting the idea that His light is of no use.)
-Demands an unusual amount of privacy.
-Spends large amounts of time alone.
-Requests time alone and quietness. (This is so that your child may speak to evil sprits through meditation.)
-Insists on spending time with friends while unaccompanied by an adult.
-Disregards authority figures; teachers, priests, nuns and elders are but a few examples of this.
-Misbehaves at school.
-Misbehaves at home.
-Eats goth-related foods. Count Dracula cereal is an example of this.
-Drinks blood or expresses an interest in drinking blood. (Vampires believe this is how to attain Satan. This act is very dangerous and should be stopped immediately.)
-Watches cable television or any other corrupted media sources. (Ask your local church for proper programs that your child may watch.)
-Plays videos games that contains violence or are of a role-playing nature.
-Uses the internet excessively and frequently makes time for the computer.
-Makes Satanic symbols and/or violently shakes head to music.
-Dances to music in a provocative or sexual manner.
-Expresses an interest in sex.
-Masturbates
-Is homosexual and/or bisexual.
-Pursues dangerous cult religions. Such include: Satanism, Scientology, Philosophy, Paganism, Wicca, Hinduism and Buddhism.
-Wears pins, stickers or anything else that contains these various phrases: "I'm so gothic, I'm dead", "woe is me", "I'm a goth".
-Claims to be a goth.

If five or more of these apply to your child, please intervene immediately. The gothic culture is dangerous and Satan thrives within it. If any of these problems persist, enlist your child into your local mental health center.

That, is what was posted. Now, i would like to say, i am not here in anyway to offend your religion. Simply because i am intrested in what you think to this.

I am a 16 year old male. My everyday image goes as followed:
Band T-shirt (all colours)
Blue or black jeans
black and white trainers
white studded belt
I have 5 piercings in all. earsx3 and lipx2. I occasionally wear a layer of makeup, such as foundation and eyeliner, but nothing o.t.t.

As the list goes on, i fit with almost all of the things listed. Yet, i belive in God. My views are not set, but i do belive there is such thing.

If you are a person who agree's with the list, from my point, you are being very cruel to other humans, simply because they are a little different to you. It does not mean that you can label people in such a way. Being this age, attending school, and going out with friends every now and then, i know what its like to be abused in the street for the way i look, so why do i carry on? Its because i belive in people looking the way there souls tell them. I dont dress this way to fit in with a culture, i do it simply because i am into this image, and belive i have my own choice when it comes to my looks.
Dont get me wrong, im not allways in full black, listening to metal music, talking about death (well, i never do that last one). Infact, i have no thoughts of death, the devil, murder, or anything 'evil' in that view.

Im a happy kid, living my life the way i like it, but its things like this, that make me angry, and wonder why people are like this (meaning people who go by this list)

I will maby post some more about myself, to do with this topic if anyone takes intrest. I am here at the min to see your views on the topic.

Remember, im only, 16. Dont be to complicated unless your going to explain it afterwards (haha)

Thanks for reading

 

[Jenka]

Wow! Interesting insights to both.
Personally I found the bulletin very generalized and rather..well...silly.
I have three piercings and I like black, so I do wear it alot. I have a red leather belt (no studs however ) and as a girl I wear eyeliner in varying degrees. *laugh* and I do listen to rock!!

The funny part is, I am really not goth! (like really really.)
I find that it all comes down to where the heart is.
Just curious, but what is your motovation behind your piercings and makeup...why do you wear it?

~Jenka

 

[rhyddid_rose]

Hail and Greetings

I guess I could be considered a member of a subset of the Goth community. Not saying which one because I want to be taken seriously on these forums.

Your list has some strange and inaccurate perceptions of what Goth is. Count Chocula cereal is Goth food? lol!!

Sounds like the author of the list is paranoid and obsessed with Satan. I read it and I would laugh if it weren't so sad. Many of the things on the list apply to most teens and young adults. I'm middle aged and some apply to me. Doesn't mean I'm dangerous or satanic or any other nonsense.

Why do so many people fear what is different?


Hail Heimdall,


Babochka

 

[Chrono Traveler]

Though you could not call me a "goth", I have always loved the sub culture. At some points im also part of it. Many of my friends my friends are goth, and I find spending time with them to be very plesent.

I also love dark art, and fantasy. I suppose I share a part of the gothic mindset.

From what I understand, and believe...

Life is full of so much pain, darkenss, death, hate, evil...ect...I've learned to embrace it. Not because these things are great(cause they are not), but because it is how life is. Without some sadness or disappointment we lose touch of how great happiness is when it comes along. We can also lose our will to grow stronger and work towards a better life..

 

[WingsOfTheNeophyte]

I fit around 1/3 of these, and I dont have anything at all to do with the subculture

Either this Bulletin thingy is a joke or someone is in a real need of actually learning about the world

Anyways, nothing wrong with the gothic culture

 

[Pogue]

A couple of those (relating to self-harm) seem to be symptons of depression, and it concerns me that people wouldn't give their teenager medical help if they were depressed, believing them instead to be gothic or Satanic or something.
As for the rest, most of them seem to be normal teenage things. Especially the privacy ones- what teenager doesn't ask for time with friends unaccompanied by an adult? And 'expresses an interest in sex' is just stupid. Yeah, because only goths are interested in That Sort of Thing.
I also want a badge that says 'Woe is me'. I'd pay good money for it

 

[Robbie_James_Francis]

-Frequently wears black clothing.

Well, Benedictines also wear black clothing. Besides which it goes with everything.

-Wears band and/or rock t-shirts.

Oh no! My child likes music! Run for the hills!

-Wears excessive black eye makeup, lipstick or nailpolish.

Who's business is it to decide what 'excessive' is?

-Shows an interest in piercings or tattoos.

No relation to 'goth' at all. I have three piercings and want to get a few tattoos, and I'm not a goth.

-Listens to gothic or any other anti-social genres of music. (Marilyn Manson claims to be the anti-Christ, and publicly speaks against the Lord. Please discard any such albums IMMEDIATELY.)

Note to parents taking this seriously: discard your teen's CDs at your own peril. You think you've seen angry? You have no idea...

-Associates with other people that dress, act or speak eccentrically.

You mean interesting people? Or people like that Guy who hung around with 12 men, travelling around in the same clothes with no job living off other people's charity and standing in the street preaching about peace and love?

-Shows a declining interest in wholesome activities, such as: the Bible, prayer, church or sports.

The Bible is wholesome?! Are we talking about the same book? The one with the murder, rape, genocide, stoning to death, burning to death, polygamy, incest, racial and religious war, torture, child killings and plagues...most of them condoned and, in fact, committed by God.

-Shows an increasing interest in death, vampires, magic, the occult, witchcraft or anything else that involves Satan.

Most people that are involved in these things don't believe in Satan.

-Takes drugs.

A lot of my friends smoke cannabis and even occasionally take other drugs, and none are 'goths'. Neither are they violent, dropouts, criminals, anti-social, addicts or whatever other propagandist terms we're having shoved down our throats. Most are successful, intelligent, hard working people going into futher education with good results, hobbies, jobs, talents, skills, friends and partners.

-Drinks alcohol.

Jesus drank alcohol.

I'd say roughly 95% of my friends drink alcohol. The percentage was not that much lower when we were 15. Again, we're not the violent and anti-social youths intimidating people on the streets. We're you're normal teenagers.

-Is suicidal and/or depressed.

Most people are depressed at some point, especially during adolesence. This is not specifically related to being 'goth'.

-Cuts, burns or partakes in any other method of self-mutilation. (This is a Satanic ritual that uses pain to detract from the light of God and His love. Please seek immediate attention for this at your local mental health center.)

No, it isn't. At least the author has enough sense to recommend mental health professionals, and not 'excorisms' from fundie preachers, which is what I would expect from someone that would write this rubbish.

-Complains of boredom.

Who doesn't?

-Sleeps too excessively or too little.

Often enough sleep is not possible. And biologically teenagers need more sleep.

-Is excessively awake during the night.

Sometimes routines necessitate this.

-Dislikes sunlight or any other form of light. (This pertains to vampires promoting the idea that His light is of no use.)[/QUOTE]

Again, no it doesn't. And some people have fair skin.

-Demands an unusual amount of privacy.

= is a teenager

Everyone needs privacy.

-Spends large amounts of time alone.

Everyone needs time alone.

-Requests time alone and quietness. (This is so that your child may speak to evil sprits through meditation.)

Pathetic.

I need time alone to watch TV, relax, read, do homework, revise, meditate, write in my diary, go on the internet, think...I have not, as yet, made any attempt to contact evil spirits.

-Insists on spending time with friends while unaccompanied by an adult.

Any parent that does not realise this is normal and allow it is more than likely going to do a lot of damage and be appallingly overbearing. To not spend time alone with friends is unhealthy behaviour that one should worry about.

-Disregards authority figures; teachers, priests, nuns and elders are but a few examples of this.

= is a teenager.

-Misbehaves at school.

Those that don't will most likely go insane trying to meet the demands placed upon them.

-Misbehaves at home.

Perfectly normal and, like most of the others, no relation to 'goth' whatsoever. If the above examples of idiotic advice are not followed, teens will misbehave less. If they are, then the teen has every right to misbehave because they are being constrained from living a normal life.

-Eats goth-related foods. Count Dracula cereal is an example of this.

This is a new level of stupid.

-Drinks blood or expresses an interest in drinking blood. (Vampires believe this is how to attain Satan. This act is very dangerous and should be stopped immediately.)

No, they don't.

-Watches cable television or any other corrupted media sources. (Ask your local church for proper programs that your child may watch.)

Most teens watch cable TV. Most adults do too. Most of the TV has no serious 'corruption' and has no relation to 'goth' at all.

-Plays videos games that contains violence or are of a role-playing nature.

Again, pretty normal. How many kids play violent video games? Loads. How many get a gun and go on killing sprees? Not a lot.

-Uses the internet excessively and frequently makes time for the computer.

I use the internet a lot. Usually to chat with my friends or to discuss and research various things that interest me like religion, politics, music, philosophy, current events, literature, history and anthropology. Does that make me a goth?

-Makes Satanic symbols and/or violently shakes head to music.

How these two are related I can't imagine. If the music is heavy, it requires heavy head banging. Simple as.

-Dances to music in a provocative or sexual manner.

Normal.

-Expresses an interest in sex.

This is beyond belief. If my teenager was not interested in sex I would take him/her to the doctor to see if something was wrong. On every single biological, social, emotional and psychological level sex is normal and sex is usually good. Teenagers, on all these levels, are interested in sex. All of them. Unless they have some sort of medical problem affecting their libido, there is no human that is not a sexual being. There is definitely no teenager that is not!

-Masturbates

Almost everyone does. Perfectly normal behaviour, especially for people not in sexual relationships.

-Is homosexual and/or bisexual.

I can't even find anything to say about this.

-Pursues dangerous cult religions. Such include: Satanism, Scientology, Philosophy, Paganism, Wicca, Hinduism and Buddhism.

I didn't think I could be more offended by this trash. How wrong I was...

Aside from the fact that Satanism, Paganism and Wicca are not monolithic organisations, so cannot be called cults, and scientology is hardly 'dangerous', just silly--

Buddhism is a peaceful major world religion that emphasises non-violence and prohibits immoral sexual behaviour, theft and violence. It promotes seeking non-attachment to material things, fulfillment and enlightenment.

Hinduism has many of the same values of non-violence and enlightenment. It is one of the oldest surviving religions in the world.

Philosophy is a subject dealing with the pursuit of Truth, and applies to all other areas of knowledge. It is the only subject that every human being is interested in on some level, because it is about the deepest questions we can ask on any and all given topics. It is at the heart of every human endeavour. It is not a religion. It is not a cult. And it id 'dangerous' only because it shines light on the darkness of fundamentalist ignorance.

-Wears pins, stickers or anything else that contains these various phrases: "I'm so gothic, I'm dead", "woe is me", "I'm a goth".

Do these actually exist? I quite fancy the 'woe is me' one. I have a badge that says 'pothead' and one that says 'binge drinker'...what would this guy make of those?

-Claims to be a goth.

OK, I'll give him this one. But goth is not about Satan and usually requires no serious concern from parents at all.

If five or more of these apply to your child, please intervene immediately.

Let's have a quick tally...OK, 24 of these apply to me. What can I say? I must be a goth even though I listen to indie music and struggle to find black clothes in my drawers when I do want them.

If you are a person who agree's with the list, from my point, you are being very cruel to other humans, simply because they are a little different to you. It does not mean that you can label people in such a way. Being this age, attending school, and going out with friends every now and then, i know what its like to be abused in the street for the way i look, so why do i carry on? Its because i belive in people looking the way there souls tell them. I dont dress this way to fit in with a culture, i do it simply because i am into this image, and belive i have my own choice when it comes to my looks.

I completely agree with you.

peace

 

[Angel4Truth]

Thread has moved here to Ethics and Morality from General Apologetics Formal Debates

[rule2.8] Complete forum rules can be seen here: www.christianforums.com/rules

 

[tocis]

"If Your Child is a Gothic, Reform Through the Lord!"

...Im a happy kid, living my life the way i like it, but its things like this, that make me angry, and wonder why people are like this (meaning people who go by this list)

Whether one believes in the christian god and satan is a topic I'll not touch here, but some christians at least act like certified paranoids I think. As soon as someone just wears a black t-shirt they think they see horns and glowing red eyes on that person.

As for me, I've served as volunteer medic at the German M'era Luna gothic festivals for years and I've found that the attendants are cool people basically. Peaceful and kind, just (for my personal taste) a bit too eager to experiment with certain... substances

(But although the festivals had tens of thousands of attendants, rarely if ever indeed did we have to care for any patients after excessive drug use or acts of violence. I guess 95 % of our patients were simply dehydrated after hours and hours of dancing under the hot August sun... in contrast to that, get some 500 football fans together and expect drunkards and beaten up people by the dozens...)

And I did find out a funny way that by far most of them do not consider themselves satanists, or even "just atheists" or something. Most of them are christians, decidedly so - just with some interesting habits.

 

[Eudaimonist]

There's nothing wrong with self-expression. I think that goths are okay.

My wife was once an active goth.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Ramona]

-Frequently wears black clothing.
-Wears band and/or rock t-shirts.
-Wears excessive black eye makeup, lipstick or nailpolish.
-Shows an interest in piercings or tattoos.
-Associates with other people that dress, act or speak eccentrically.
-Complains of boredom.
-Sleeps too excessively or too little.
-Is excessively awake during the night.
-Insists on spending time with friends while unaccompanied by an adult.
-Eats goth-related foods. Count Dracula cereal is an example of this.
-Watches cable television or any other corrupted media sources. (Ask your local church for proper programs that your child may watch.)
-Uses the internet excessively and frequently makes time for the computer.
-Expresses an interest in sex.



If five or more of these apply to your child, please intervene immediately. The gothic culture is dangerous and Satan thrives within it. If any of these problems persist, enlist your child into your local mental health center.

LOL, I guess that's me!! Count up, there's definitely more than five!

TOO funny!!!!!

 

[meebs]

If you are a person who agree's with the list, from my point, you are being very cruel to other humans, simply because they are a little different to you. It does not mean that you can label people in such a way. Being this age, attending school, and going out with friends every now and then, i know what its like to be abused in the street for the way i look, so why do i carry on? Its because i belive in people looking the way there souls tell them. I dont dress this way to fit in with a culture, i do it simply because i am into this image, and belive i have my own choice when it comes to my looks.
Dont get me wrong, im not allways in full black, listening to metal music, talking about death (well, i never do that last one). Infact, i have no thoughts of death, the devil, murder, or anything 'evil' in that view.

Im a happy kid, living my life the way i like it, but its things like this, that make me angry, and wonder why people are like this (meaning people who go by this list)

I will maby post some more about myself, to do with this topic if anyone takes intrest. I am here at the min to see your views on the topic.

Remember, im only, 16. Dont be to complicated unless your going to explain it afterwards (haha)

Thanks for reading

Hi!

Seems like you already have a good grasp on yourself and know what you like/dislike. Do what you feel is right. You seem to know that.

This is aimed at the list in general not you (OP) That list made me laugh (although a couple of things on it are sad for the person who does that). But 5 or more and your a goth? don't make me laugh! Im not a goth and 5 or more things applied to me as a teenager and they do now.

For example right now in my life (excluding my teens):

-Frequently wears black clothing
-Wears band and/or rock t-shirts.
-Listens to gothic or any other anti-social genres of music.
-Associates with other people that dress, act or speak eccentrically
-Shows a declining interest in wholesome activities, such as: the prayer, church (yup i ommited the others)
-Shows an increasing interest in death, vampires, magic, the occult, witchcraft or anything else that involves Satan.(all as a story nothing more)
-Drinks alcohol. -Takes drugs.(well i smoke pot occasionally but alcohol may be ommited, due to the fact i dont like the taste - oh and i count alcohol as a drug)
-Is suicidal and/or depressed.
-Complains of boredom.
-Sleeps too excessively or too little.
-Is excessively awake during the night. (due to my always have been freaky sleep patterns - and applies to others - this is NOT goth!)
-Dislikes sunlight or any other form of light. (im a little photosensititve - again not goth)
-Spends large amounts of time alone. (sadly)
-Requests time alone and quietness. (not due to satanic prayer - i like some time alone - who doesnt? and quietness as i have concentration problems and for when i sleep, its a long story.)
-Disregards authority figures; teachers, priests, nuns and elders are but a few examples of this.
-Watches cable television or any other corrupted media sources.
-Plays videos games that contains violence or are of a role-playing nature.
-Uses the internet excessively and frequently makes time for the computer.
-Expresses an interest in sex.

So - let me see, 5 or more... oh noes!!!!1

and im not a teen, i know people who do associate with gothic ulture however - and some of them are laid back, sociable loving people who dont drugs and drink.

Most of these points are not even gothic, some are just prime examples of teen behaviour (and even adult) or signs of depression. Whoever wrote this knows very little of humanity.

again to the OP: use your mind and what you think feels right. If you are a Christian then if you feel it effects your faith in a negative sense then dont do it. It's good to ask opinions but its up to you entirely in the end.

 

[Eudaimonist]

and scientology is hardly 'dangerous', just silly--

You should talk with a semi-regular poster of ours, vajradhara, about that, since she was once a member high up in Scientology's organization. She would assure you that Scientology is potentially very dangerous, even though not everyone who joins encounters the danger.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[meebs]

I also want a badge that says 'Woe is me'. I'd pay good money for it

me too - and those people who know me and saw me wearing it would be in hysterics.

think i'll try find one

 

[meebs]

In fact - we should make black t-shirts with the "woe is me" slogan.

Awesome!

 

[Eudaimonist]

-Frequently wears black clothing.

I'm wearing all black at work right now. Black jeans and a black t-shirt.

-Listens to gothic or any other anti-social genres of music.

Why would gothic music be "anti-social"? What counts as "anti-social" music? Anything that isn't pop?

-Associates with other people that dress, act or speak eccentrically.

That would be me too. My wife makes alternative clothing for nightclubbing. We hang out with alternative people, some of whom are goths. I didn't know that made me a goth too! LOL!

-Shows a declining interest in wholesome activities, such as: the Bible, prayer, church or sports.

So, jocks are wholesome? LOL!

-Drinks alcohol.

What about jocks that drink alcohol? LOL!

-Is suicidal and/or depressed.

That just means that one is a teenager.

-Complains of boredom.

BOREDOM?!? LOL!

-Sleeps too excessively or too little.

Make up your mind. Which is it?

-Is excessively awake during the night.

How about excessively asleep during the night?

-Demands an unusual amount of privacy.

So unusual for a teenager. LOL!

-Spends large amounts of time alone.

So unusual for an introverted teenager.

-Requests time alone and quietness.

Yes, noise is wholesome.

-Insists on spending time with friends while unaccompanied by an adult.

So unusual for a teenager. Imagine wanting time alone with friends!

-Disregards authority figures; teachers, priests, nuns and elders are but a few examples of this.

Yes, teenagers never do this!

-Misbehaves at school.

Wow, Bart Simpson is a goth!

-Misbehaves at home.

Here again!

-Eats goth-related foods. Count Dracula cereal is an example of this.

LOL!

-Watches cable television or any other corrupted media sources.

Cable television. All those guys who watch sports on cable television are goths! LOL!

-Plays videos games that contains violence or are of a role-playing nature.

Video games! Those World of Warcraft players are goths!

-Uses the internet excessively and frequently makes time for the computer.

Oh, no! If you're reading this post right now, you must be goth!

-Dances to music in a provocative or sexual manner.

Elvis was a goth!

-Expresses an interest in sex.

Every human being past puberty on the planet is a goth!

-Masturbates

If you touch, you just might be goth. LOL!

-Is homosexual and/or bisexual.

LOL!

-Pursues dangerous cult religions. Such include: Satanism, Scientology, Philosophy, Paganism, Wicca, Hinduism and Buddhism.

Philosophy? If your child shows an interest in philosophy or computers, report them to the proper authorities for too great an interest in Edjukation! We can't have any of that in America!

-Wears pins, stickers or anything else that contains these various phrases: "I'm so gothic, I'm dead", "woe is me", "I'm a goth".

Nah, maybe they meant "I'm a jock".

-Claims to be a goth.

Wow, do ya think?


Even when I was a teenager, I would have matched at least 10 of these, and I was a straight, pop music listening, academically oriented, computer and D&D geek.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Chajara]

Freakin' LOL at the Count Chocula cereal one. Uh oh guys, someone better get a priest to exorcise my pantry, because I have a box in there right now.

 

[Lynden1000]

Forget the goths...when are the Visigoths going to come back into style?

 

[OdwinOddball]

You know your particular cultural niche has come of age when a fundamentalist adds it to the lists that enable parents to determine which particular sub-culture their children belong to.

Remarkably, this list seems very similar to a list I saw in the 80's about signs that your child might be into the "Satanic grip of Dungeons & Dragons".

 

[Ravn]

Well they would bring up Marilyn Manson and Satan lol.

I am goth and so far have never had the urge to bite some one in the neck and i do not wear black all the time.

I am pagan though . . . and have read many things on witch craft. Satan and Vampires do not feature in it ( well most of it considering MOST witches i know do not believe in the devil).

I like heavy metal and stuff so what i dont force it on other people. Whoever wrote thta article was probably out of touch with their "inner darkness"