Got someone in my family that thinks they're no longer a Sinner.

[twin1954]

You guys are reading into things that aren't there, that I never said, and aren't reading what I have said.

It isn't good theology to lump everything Paul wrote as though he wrote it to everyone at the same time about the same things.... The Corinthians were the most carnal, being saved out of abject paganism and he addresses all that there with them. Galatians is where a good study will show that to think you still have sin, and have to work at being good is to put yourself back under the law, which is what the Galatians were trying to do...live under the law rather than grace! "Oh you foolish Galatians"...He felt his admonition was so urgent he didn't wait for a scribe, but feverish wrote to try and keep the church at Galatia from sliding back under the law...

Ephesians through Philemon is where he addresses only the believers.
Ephesians 2:1 ...And you hath he quickened, who WERE dead in trespasses and sin.
Ephesians 4:22-24 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts..and be renewed in the spirit of your mind and that ye put on the new man which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

I believe the 'P' in the TULIP stands for Preservation of the saints. Coupled with Romans 8....well there just is no way I nor any believer has both the Holy Spirit sealing us and indwelling us, and living in Christ's righteousness AND hanging onto "sin". I don't know why you attack me for showing you a deeper theology of looking at and reading verses when your way requires you to ignore the verses about what God did with the believer's sin.

You can live with your sin, but God Almighty tells me He removed mine.

This isn't "deeper theology" it is mysticism.

I ignore no verses of Scripture and all of Paul's writings were to believers not unbelievers. He wrote to the churches not to the general public. While you are correct that I am not just positionally sinless but actually sinless in the new man which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness, Eph. 4:24, to deny the old nature still striving for dominion is a deception and not the experience of any believer. What I am in Christ I really am to be sure, 1John 4:17, but what I am in myself is just as real and just as evil as it ever was.

If you think for an instant that you are not sinning you have no idea what sin is.

 

[RINO 72]

Nope. We're sinners even if we don't. We commit sin(s) when we commit the acts of transgression whatever they may be, and also sin when we fail to do the good that should be done, perfectly. We can never meet this standard, that's why I am thankful for the work of Jesus Christ.

Yes I agree.

Again I believe Luther has it.

What Does "Simul Justus et Peccator" Mean? by Nathan W. Bingham | Ligonier Ministries Blog

 

[AmericanSamurai]

^Good vid. And great explanation by Martin Luther.

 

[A New Dawn]

Someone in my family believes they are no longer a Sinner because they have accepted Jesus Christ.

I just wanted to focus on all the Scripture that shows we are still Sinners til we are fully sanctified in Heaven.

Our pastor preached a sermon last Sunday that demonstrated why we should not call ourselves "a sinner" any longer if we have been saved. (He did not say it was because we don't sin.) He said that if we call ourselves a sinner saved by grace, then we are exhibiting an identity crisis. A sinner is how Paul often referred to those who have not been saved, so we are not sinners, we are brothers and sisters in Christ. Anyway, there is a way to say you are not a sinner and not mean you don't sin if you are looking at identity and not actions.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

This isn't "deeper theology" it is mysticism.

I ignore no verses of Scripture and all of Paul's writings were to believers not unbelievers. He wrote to the churches not to the general public. While you are correct that I am not just positionally sinless but actually sinless in the new man which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness, Eph. 4:24, to deny the old nature still striving for dominion is a deception and not the experience of any believer. What I am in Christ I really am to be sure, 1John 4:17, but what I am in myself is just as real and just as evil as it ever was.

If you think for an instant that you are not sinning you have no idea what sin is.

I agree, reading through this thread reminds me of years ago. Although I am certainly not a fan of C.S. Lewis, and disagree with his methodology of defending the faith, and do not recommend his writings (at least not without knowledge of his errors), I remember somewhat faintly how well he made the point of how sinful sin is. I cannot remember if it was his "Mere Christianity" book, or "Screwtape Letters", I think the former. One of the points he made has to do with pride, and how to think we have no pride or do not struggle with it, is the most prideful thought of all. And how prideful it is to think we are humble, the moment he think ourselves humble, we are prideful. One thing Lewis helped me with, is to consider the sinfulness of sin, and the many devices of the evil one, and how subtle the adversary of our faith is. Praise God there is victory in Jesus, and hope, and eager anticipation for the day of glorification, free from the corruptible body of flesh.

 

[AmericanSamurai]

Our pastor preached a sermon last Sunday that demonstrated why we should not call ourselves "a sinner" any longer if we have been saved. (He did not say it was because we don't sin.) He said that if we call ourselves a sinner saved by grace, then we are exhibiting an identity crisis. A sinner is how Paul often referred to those who have not been saved, so we are not sinners, we are brothers and sisters in Christ. Anyway, there is a way to say you are not a sinner and not mean you don't sin if you are looking at identity and not actions.

This is the Reformed board, and part of what I like about being in the Reformed circles is that Reformed folks like to tell it how it is, according to Scripture. I personally have no problem with classifying myself as still a sinner because it reminds me that the only thing that really matters, and the whole reason for my Salvation, is upon the Person and work of Jesus Christ on the Cross. I do not have an identity crisis at all, and to echo Paul, "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

 

[AmericanSamurai]

I'm disgusted with what passes for modern Evangelicalism, a huge part of it is precisely because of the subject of this thread.

 

[A New Dawn]

This is the Reformed board, and part of what I like about being in the Reformed circles is that Reformed folks like to tell it how it is, according to Scripture. I personally have no problem with classifying myself as still a sinner because it reminds me that the only thing that really matters, and the whole reason for my Salvation, is upon the Person and work of Jesus Christ on the Cross. I do not have an identity crisis at all, and to echo Paul, "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

As I said, his comments were not that we don't sin, but that identifying ourselves as a sinner negates our identity in Christ. Yes, I sin, but I am saved by the blood of Christ, and to not identify myself as a brother or sister in Christ, but instead as someone who still needs to be saved, then, IMO, that slaps Christ across the face. Paul never identified those who were already saved as "sinners". Why should I?

 

[AmericanSamurai]

To anyway imply, that we no longer sin is an affront to the Lord Jesus Christ and a lie. I don't agree with your Pastor not to identify as a sinner, because that is denying the reality and the truth, that we still commit sins after conversion. Now granted, we are no longer slaves to sin, and we are no longer damned to Hell, but we are very much do commit sin(s).

 

[A New Dawn]

To anyway imply, that we no longer sin is an affront to the Lord Jesus Christ and a lie. I don't agree with your Pastor not to identify as a sinner, because that is denying the reality and the truth, that we still commit sins after conversion. Now granted, we are no longer slaves to sin, and we are no longer damned to Hell, but we are very much do commit sin(s).

Maybe you haven't read where I've said, twice, that not identifying as a sinner does not indicate you do not sin. Understanding you still sin and confessing your sin is what is important, not identifying yourself as a sinner. Denying the reality is identifying yourself as a sinner when you are, in fact, saved. According to the scriptures, you are either saved or your are a sinner. Continuing to identify as someone who has not received God's gift of grace, when in fact you have, is where the disconnect is.

 

[AmericanSamurai]

Let me clarify, I read the part where your Pastor didn't say we don't NOT sin. I still don't agree with him in not identifying Christians, albeit saved, as not using the label sinners anymore, for we very much are and still do, sin.

 

[AmericanSamurai]

According to the scriptures, you are either saved or your are a sinner. Continuing to identify as someone who has not received God's gift of grace, when in fact you have, is where the disconnect is.

Wrong. Watch the video that RINO posted, "Simul Justus et Peccator". We're very much BOTH.

 

[twin1954]

Maybe you haven't read where I've said, twice, that not identifying as a sinner does not indicate you do not sin. Understanding you still sin and confessing your sin is what is important, not identifying yourself as a sinner. Denying the reality is identifying yourself as a sinner when you are, in fact, saved. According to the scriptures, you are either saved or your are a sinner. Continuing to identify as someone who has not received God's gift of grace, when in fact you have, is where the disconnect is.

The problem with this thinking is that it sets up a dividing line of pride between the believer and the unbeliever. I can't tell you how many times I have heard religious folks who don't know the Lord from a billy goat speak of those who are not church goers as sinners as though they weren't. The world is full of "sinners" but I ain't one of those people . It serves pride and makes rebels look down their noses at other rebels. That is exactly what the Jews did to all who were not Jews.

No I am a saved sinner who is less than the worst among the whole world. I am a saint for sure but I never want to get above my need for Christ as my Savior. And I never want to set myself up as higher or holier than those to whom I seek to preach the Gospel.

 

[AmericanSamurai]

^And I think it also gives a false impression that we have achieved the same status as Jesus Christ.

 

[singlecandle]

And that may be where the philosophy
came from of our being the only "Jesus in Skin" the
world will ever know.

 

[drjean]

Well I forgive you guys for calling me a mystic...even though you haven't requested forgiveness. Your opinion of me is none of my business.

I hear a few of you sitting on the fence, as the Galatians did--or tried to do until Paul knocked them off it--with yes, Grace BUT---!!! Listen to what you are saying. You are limiting the Grace of God.

Thank you A New Dawn for your input...I agree!

I have not created any verses of my own folks...and keep questioning you as to what you do with the Scriptures where God Almighty says he has REMOVED all your sin, East from West, deepest part of the sea etc. Do you ignore them? You can't say yes I believe God took my sin and turn around and say but I have sin...which is exactly what you are doing. How is that working for you?

You say I don't know what sin is? chuckle chuckle. I say you don't know what the joy of the Lord is at it's fullest because if you drag the idea that you are not fully free in Christ and still have to deal with "sin" you cannot know His joy. JMO

Paul says ALL THINGS ARE LAWFUL. What do you do with that verse and how do you create sin if nothing is sinful? YET ALL THINGS ARE NOT EXPEDIENT. No, not everything we do is the best for us. We do make mistakes, sometimes BIG ones (to us.) But none of that matters to God Almighty...what matters is that we trust Him, talk to Him, learn to draw closer to Him, worship and praise Him.

Look at David... look at his blatant sin! Yet, God said David was a man after His (God's ) own heart! How can that be if David was sinful? (Of course the OT atonement was temporary for a year..but still..it was based upon Christ's redeeming act.)

And what happens to the picture of the Kinsman Redeemer if you say Yes But? Did not the Kinsman Redeemer in the OT fully redeem someone, no debts no nothing after? But you are projecting that the Almighty Kinsman Redeemer, Yeshua, Jesus the Christ's redemption is deficient because... you need to say Yes, But...!!!

I wish only for you to maybe take a big breath and allow God to help you think and study this. Try not to be so fearful of some foreign doctrine creeping in (trust me your barriers are so strong you aren't seeing God's message for you)...and allow the Holy Spirit to suggest what if...???

I mean, unless you are so dogmatic that nothing will change your mind. I understand that, I lived there for many a year..burdened and on that pointy fence of "yes, but".... thank God He showed me He is all powerful and He keeps His promises and Yes, Jesus did pay it all. ALL.

Be well.

 

[drjean]

^And I think it also gives a false impression that we have achieved the same status as Jesus Christ.

Hmmm. What Bible do you use? Doesn't it have these verses (and connected contexts)?

Romans 8:17 New American Standard Bible
and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

Galatians 4:7
So you are no longer a slave, but God's child; and since you are his child, God has made you also an heir.

Philippians 3:10
I want to know Christ--yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

We are not God, and I have never suggested that. BUT God never tells us to do or have something we are unable to do or have. We are told we are to have the FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST, not our own faith. We are to have the MIND OF CHRIST. And we have CHRIST'S RIGHTEOUSNESS.

I Corinthians 2:14-16 King James Version (KJV)

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

My brethren, haue not the faith of our Lord Iesus Christ the Lord of glorie, with respect of persons.
- King James Version (1611)

Romans 5:19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

"Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes?" Romans 10:4;
"Christ is of God made unto us righteousness" 1 Cor. 1:30;
"He has made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him?" 2 Cor. 5:21.

See also Romans 4:5, 6, and Gal. 3:6, 9, 22. http://www.gracegems.org/Plumer2/grace_of_christ26.htm

I wonder how one can say that Christ can be righteous and not be sinful, yet believers, whom Christ makes righteous, are still sinful.

Ephesians 3:12
In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence.

Freedom...freedom from the burden of sin!

 

[A New Dawn]

The problem with this thinking is that it sets up a dividing line of pride between the believer and the unbeliever. I can't tell you how many times I have heard religious folks who don't know the Lord from a billy goat speak of those who are not church goers as sinners as though they weren't. The world is full of "sinners" but I ain't one of those people . It serves pride and makes rebels look down their noses at other rebels. That is exactly what the Jews did to all who were not Jews.

No I am a saved sinner who is less than the worst among the whole world. I am a saint for sure but I never want to get above my need for Christ as my Savior. And I never want to set myself up as higher or holier than those to whom I seek to preach the Gospel.

I guess if you are prone to pride, that might be a problem, but I am not forgetful that while I was yet a sinner, Christ died for me.

Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

That verse is in the past tense.

 

[twin1954]

Well I forgive you guys for calling me a mystic...even though you haven't requested forgiveness. Your opinion of me is none of my business.

I hear a few of you sitting on the fence, as the Galatians did--or tried to do until Paul knocked them off it--with yes, Grace BUT---!!! Listen to what you are saying. You are limiting the Grace of God.

Thank you A New Dawn for your input...I agree!

I have not created any verses of my own folks...and keep questioning you as to what you do with the Scriptures where God Almighty says he has REMOVED all your sin, East from West, deepest part of the sea etc. Do you ignore them? You can't say yes I believe God took my sin and turn around and say but I have sin...which is exactly what you are doing. How is that working for you?

You say I don't know what sin is? chuckle chuckle. I say you don't know what the joy of the Lord is at it's fullest because if you drag the idea that you are not fully free in Christ and still have to deal with "sin" you cannot know His joy. JMO

Paul says ALL THINGS ARE LAWFUL. What do you do with that verse and how do you create sin if nothing is sinful? YET ALL THINGS ARE NOT EXPEDIENT. No, not everything we do is the best for us. We do make mistakes, sometimes BIG ones (to us.) But none of that matters to God Almighty...what matters is that we trust Him, talk to Him, learn to draw closer to Him, worship and praise Him.

Look at David... look at his blatant sin! Yet, God said David was a man after His (God's ) own heart! How can that be if David was sinful? (Of course the OT atonement was temporary for a year..but still..it was based upon Christ's redeeming act.)

And what happens to the picture of the Kinsman Redeemer if you say Yes But? Did not the Kinsman Redeemer in the OT fully redeem someone, no debts no nothing after? But you are projecting that the Almighty Kinsman Redeemer, Yeshua, Jesus the Christ's redemption is deficient because... you need to say Yes, But...!!!

I wish only for you to maybe take a big breath and allow God to help you think and study this. Try not to be so fearful of some foreign doctrine creeping in (trust me your barriers are so strong you aren't seeing God's message for you)...and allow the Holy Spirit to suggest what if...???

I mean, unless you are so dogmatic that nothing will change your mind. I understand that, I lived there for many a year..burdened and on that pointy fence of "yes, but".... thank God He showed me He is all powerful and He keeps His promises and Yes, Jesus did pay it all. ALL.

Be well.

And what do you do with the Scriptures that clearly say that a woman is not to teach as having authority? Yes what you say is true to some extent as I plainly said in my first response but you are making the spiritual reality to be a mystic philosophy.

You have your right to your opinion but don't try to teach me, a man called of God to study His word and preach His Gospel. In Christ I have no sin but to deny that I am no longer a sinner is grave error if not heresy. You seem to think you have something that I don't but you are wrong. I know the full freedom that is in Christ and the joy of salvation in Him alone. God sees no sin in me for sure and doesn't deal with me as a sinner for He took even the sin I am committing as I write this and the sin I will commit until the day I lay down this body of death as His own and put it away by the sacrifice of Himself. But to deny that you still live in this body of flesh and sin is neither Scriptural nor the experience of any believer. I don't drag my sin around as a chain that binds me I recognize my sin as that which so easily besets me and abhor myself and my sin. It drives me daily to Christ alone not to a prideful and arrogant self-righteousness.


God doesn't play games with His elect nor does He play pretend. I neither pretend I am not a sinner nor do I pretend I am not a saint. I am a man of 2 natures which are in constant warfare with each other. I strive to take that man of sin, twin1954, to the cross daily to be crucified but I do not turn a blind eye to him as though he doesn't exist. I am able to see sin in others because I see the same sin in myself. I am able to comfort others because I go through the same battles with myself. I am sick and tired of "Christians" who think that they are something better than a saved sinner.

 

[singlecandle]

I feel like I am reading an E.W. Kenyon
book.