Got someone in my family that thinks they're no longer a Sinner.

[drjean]

Perhaps it is a Biblical concept some are afraid to address, and of course the devil would like nothing better than to keep believers from living a joyful life in Christ.

I don't know where the idea of sinless perfection came from in this thread--but that has nothing to do with Paul's gospel of Christ. If the idea of being "sinless" is ascribed it needs to be in the manner that Paul puts it for believers, not in the definition as most people (and as it appears most on this thread) are considering it.

Being free from sin does not mean doing good perfectly. Who said that?

If one looks at this from man's view, then yes you can become confused and the natural tendency (human nature) is to put up an argument without allowing God's Spirit to speak to your heart. Paul had his arguments with other believers, but I'll stick with Paul since Jesus taught him Himself.

IN GOD EYES we are perfect, and have no sin. Anyone arguing with that?

 

[AmericanSamurai]

IN GOD EYES we are perfect, and have no sin. Anyone arguing with that?

Yes, I do. We are perfect insofar as we are in Christ and His righteousness is imputed to us. But to say that we are now sinless and no longer sinners I think would be inaccurate.

I live joyful in Christ because I know now that it is no longer my performance that justifies me, but on the finished work of Jesus Christ on the Cross.

 

[AmericanSamurai]

I, and other Christians certainly are still sinners in thought, word, and deed, and also in the things that we we ought have done and have failed to do.

 

[drjean]

So from what I read, and I think this is an accurate assessment of what is being said, that you are NOT sinless in God's eyes.

So for which of your sins did Christ not pay the debt?

 

[AmericanSamurai]

Positionally, I am sinless in God's eyes only because of the imputed righteousness that I have in Christ. My sins no longer condemn me to Hell, but the righteousness of Christ covers me.

But on this side of Eternity, for any Christian to say he is sinless and doesn't commit sin(s) is not accurate.

 

[drjean]

Agreed on the imputed righteousness.

But God says since you are covered with Christ's righteousness, He sees you as sinless, as Christ is.

So what sins did you wrangle from the Holy Spirit's hands that you insist upon owning?

 

[AmericanSamurai]

By your logic, I believe that I am good to go then! I should go rob a bank since Christ has my sin(s) covered amirite?

 

[drjean]

My logic? I'm quoting Bible verses, these are what God says...

However, with you illogical reasoning you have failed to note that God says that we have the (ability to have) mind of Christ. And there are verses I'm sure you know that speak to how those who are believers no longer want to do wrong...and in fact that those who continue to SIN never had a genuine conversion experience in the first place.

However, should you, being a believer, go and rob a bank, you will not lose your salvation but you will lose a close relationship with the Father for which repentance will be required. You will also suffer the repercussions of your wrongdoing here on earth...and it will be something that will not bring reward in heaven.

We are known by our fruit. Study about fruit trees ...much to find. But we all know that fruit does not arise overnight.

For the one who wanted to begin on the Lord's Prayer, I'm sure it was about forgiving... and it depends upon what word you learned but the root word goes to "trespasses" which, in the Bible, refers to unintentional wrongs. There are things we may do with the right intent that hurts someone else legitimately, and it was wrong in that sense. Or, as the Bible warns us, don't provoke your children to wrath... there's another imo.

So, what "sin" of yours that you are hanging onto, did Christ not forgive you for, that He didn't die for? And, please tell me how you wrestled it back from Him?

Christ is our Redeemer. Yes, the full redemption is not yet, as Paul talked about how he doesn't pretend that he is perfect and fully redeemed yet (well, he is now lol).

But we are justified.
Justified.
Justification means that God sees us just as if we had never sinned.

 

[AmericanSamurai]

I'm not worried about losing my Salvation, I know that I can't. I am not talking about how God "sees" our sins either.

You're still dodging the core issue drjean, and I think that you "over spiritualize" things that are in Scripture that I see people in denominations like Word of Faith do all the time.

Do Christians commit sins or not after conversion?

 

[shawnavery]

I'm not worried about losing my Salvation, I know that I can't. I am not talking about how God "sees" our sins either.

You're still dodging the core issue drjean, and I think that you "over spiritualize" things that are in Scripture that I see people in denominations like Word of Faith do all the time

Do Christians commit sins or not after conversion?

Well I would have to yes to that question. If drjean you say no I would have to ask what is the purpose of Paul's letters to the Corinthians?

John 3:16

 

[snumerouno]

@AmericanSamurai

You are correct.

@drjean

You are way off.

 

[AmericanSamurai]

We are freed from sin, not free from sin, hope that makes sense.

 

[drjean]

Someone in my family believes they are no longer a Sinner because they have accepted Jesus Christ.

I just wanted to focus on all the Scripture that shows we are still Sinners til we are fully sanctified in Heaven.

I'm still waiting for this as well... Scripture that refers only to the believing Gentile.

Paul didn't write any that talk about "sin" of the believer, only our errors and striving to live a closer life--better relationship with the Almighty. He tried to accommodate when writing to a mixed audience of Jew/Gentile believer and non... with his own previous struggles... but in the epistles only to the believers, nothing about fighting sin.

 

[twin1954]

I'm still waiting for this as well... Scripture that refers only to the believing Gentile.

Paul didn't write any that talk about "sin" of the believer, only our errors and striving to live a closer life--better relationship with the Almighty. He tried to accommodate when writing to a mixed audience of Jew/Gentile believer and non... with his own previous struggles... but in the epistles only to the believers, nothing about fighting sin.

So I guess you have just ripped out the book of 1,2Corinth. and especially Gal. right out of your Bible. While I get your premise you carry it too far. To deny that we are still in the flesh is to deny both Scripture and experience. Yes we are to live and think as though we have no sin for in Christ we do not but to simply turn a blind eye to what we know is in us is to deceive ourselves. I am absolutely convinced that in Christ I have no sin and strive daily to live with that knowledge but I do not deny that in my flesh is no good thing and that all I do is mixed with sin.

 

[shawnavery]

So I guess you have just ripped out the book of 1,2Corinth. and especially Gal. right out of your Bible. While I get your premise you carry it too far. To deny that we are still in the flesh is to deny both Scripture and experience. Yes we are to live and think as though we have no sin for in Christ we do not but to simply turn a blind eye to what we know is in us is to deceive ourselves. I am absolutely convinced that in Christ I have no sin and strive daily to live with that knowledge but I do not deny that in my flesh is no good thing and that all I do is mixed with sin.

Exactly my thoughts

John 3:16

 

[drjean]

You guys are reading into things that aren't there, that I never said, and aren't reading what I have said.

It isn't good theology to lump everything Paul wrote as though he wrote it to everyone at the same time about the same things.... The Corinthians were the most carnal, being saved out of abject paganism and he addresses all that there with them. Galatians is where a good study will show that to think you still have sin, and have to work at being good is to put yourself back under the law, which is what the Galatians were trying to do...live under the law rather than grace! "Oh you foolish Galatians"...He felt his admonition was so urgent he didn't wait for a scribe, but feverish wrote to try and keep the church at Galatia from sliding back under the law...

Ephesians through Philemon is where he addresses only the believers.
Ephesians 2:1 ...And you hath he quickened, who WERE dead in trespasses and sin.
Ephesians 4:22-24 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts..and be renewed in the spirit of your mind and that ye put on the new man which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

I believe the 'P' in the TULIP stands for Preservation of the saints. Coupled with Romans 8....well there just is no way I nor any believer has both the Holy Spirit sealing us and indwelling us, and living in Christ's righteousness AND hanging onto "sin". I don't know why you attack me for showing you a deeper theology of looking at and reading verses when your way requires you to ignore the verses about what God did with the believer's sin.

You can live with your sin, but God Almighty tells me He removed mine.

 

[RINO 72]

Am I sinning only if I hang on to it?

 

[AmericanSamurai]

Am I sinning only if I hang on to it?

Nope. We're sinners even if we don't. We commit sin(s) when we commit the acts of transgression whatever they may be, and also sin when we fail to do the good that should be done, perfectly. We can never meet this standard, that's why I am thankful for the work of Jesus Christ.

 

[AmericanSamurai]

So I guess you have just ripped out the book of 1,2Corinth. and especially Gal. right out of your Bible. While I get your premise you carry it too far. To deny that we are still in the flesh is to deny both Scripture and experience. Yes we are to live and think as though we have no sin for in Christ we do not but to simply turn a blind eye to what we know is in us is to deceive ourselves. I am absolutely convinced that in Christ I have no sin and strive daily to live with that knowledge but I do not deny that in my flesh is no good thing and that all I do is mixed with sin.

Thank you. We are all still in the flesh, and the state of perfect sanctification and sinlessness is only when we are in Heaven.

 

[AmericanSamurai]

You guys are reading into things that aren't there, that I never said, and aren't reading what I have said.

It isn't good theology to lump everything Paul wrote as though he wrote it to everyone at the same time about the same things....

It isn't good Theology to deny the reality of things as they are. You have spiritualized everything to the denial of our natural fleshly state here on Earth and you sound like a Word of Faither now.

Scripture is clear about the two natures that war against each other, as Paul wrote in Romans.