Good reason to be an atheist?(moved from Christian Appologetics)

[juvenissun]

That's not how science works.

Science is based off of the scientific method... meaning you must be able to show and prove something and that needs empirical data. God, can neither be shown to exist or not exist, and one cannot get empirical data to either prove nor disprove God, so therefore using science to seek truth (using the scientific method) will say that there is no God (at least for now).

Atheists view one day, science will prove everything... which they view as truth... and therefore makes very good reason why one may be an atheist. They see things as material/empirical/calculated and believe that so for there is no evidence of a God, and therefore there is no God (again, at least for now).

As Carl Sagan said, "I don't want to believe, but I want to know." He was an agnostic, and also said, "that the idea of a Creator of the Universe was difficult to prove or disprove and that the only conceivable scientific discovery that could challenge it would be an infinitely old universe."

So, I really don't know why one would be an atheist, but better yet, an agnostic. Though there is ambiguity in the word atheist. Meaning there's no one set/true meaning to the word atheist. Some say atheist is simply one who doesn't believe in a deity. Others say atheist is one who is very confident that no God at all exists. So, some would say Carl Sagan was an atheist b/c he didn't believe in a God, but never did he say there is not a God.

That is not a realistic faith.

Human history did not let human figure out anything.
Cosmic history did not show us the arrival of high-tech aliens. (They destroyed themselves before they learned how to flying out)

If you are a scientist, you examine small things, large things, old things and future possibilities. And you also see the development of human civilization. I don't think anyone would feel that the wish of knowing everything in the future is realistic. You need to know: In the field of science, we know nothing, so far. Every piece of scientific info you think you know is questionable.

 

[juvenissun]

May I say that this seems backwards to me. To me the concept of faith is necessarily the end of curiosity. I have always seen faith as deciding on an answer to a question for the sake of having an answer. I mean no offense, but your own story of choosing a belief system before you actually believed in it seems like a good example.

So out of curiosity, which questions do you think I have stopped asking?

Sorry for not replying your mail.

For example, do you believe the existence of sixth sense?

Well, this is just an example. In fact, if you keep asking questions to anything, you will find that you won't go very far. Put it this way, have you ever pursuing an unanswered question consistently till now? This type of question is virtually unlimited. For example, UFO, multiple universe, ghost, near-death experience, ancient technology, free will, etc. etc..

 

[juvenissun]

Absolutely false. Atheists are generally intensely curious people. We simply don't ask the questions you want us to ask, because we've already answered them and have moved on to other questions.


eudaimonia,

Mark

No. Human beings haven't answered anything yet. Wherever you go, you always ended with a lot of questions. It is very frustrating.

How much have you thought about the abortion problem? You stopped somewhere and take your side. Did you? That is what I meant by having no curiosity.

 

[Super_Rational]

As far as I can remember, I did not have a good reason to be an atheist.

Sounds like my story, only in reverse. I was brought up as a christian, just like i was brought up to believe in santa. I didn't have a good reason to believe in either. It seemed the grown ups believed it, so why wouldn't I, right?

Why would people want to be an atheist?

I doubt many, if anyone wants to be an atheist. You're not considering that people's beliefs, in regards to anything, can change over time. I started actively questioning & disagreeing on religion without ever thinking, "hey, I'm becoming an atheist." That's not how it works. My deconversion probably took a year or so, and I remember visiting an atheist website & agreeing with a lot of what I read. So eventually I began to consider myself an atheist. But at first I was quite apathetic about it & honestly wasn't even aware I was becoming an atheist.

But to my experience, one "should" have a religious belief.

Have heard this one a lot. So are you saying it would be better for me to believe in the many Hindu gods, which I expect you believe do not exist, than to not believe in any gods at all? What if I believed in a god which was in direct opposition to your beliefs? I've been on both sides of the fence...can't see a reason why I should believe even if I could.

So, please give me your best reasons of being an atheist. You may start with the most convincing one.

I'll tell you at least how it all started with me. ...All of the absurd old testament stories completely against everything we know. The flood was especially absurd, but it was always fun seeing christians come up with varying, conflicting, or just plain stupid rationalizations (excuses). And that's just where it started...the rest is history.

 

[Penumbra]

No. It was not like that.
I chose a religion which I did not know much about (no acceptance, no rejection). I was simply trying to understand it.

I ended up accept it not because of anything forced me into it. I accept it because it eventually answers ALL of my questions in a satisfactory and convincing way. Notice it took a long time to convince me, not in one week or one year. The key is: before it convinced me, I did not reject it. That is very important.

How did you feel about other religions at that time? Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, and so forth? What made you seek and learn about Christianity, as opposed to the others? Did you reject others, or no?

-Lyn

 

[Super_Rational]

To me, one of the most significant character of all atheists is that they do not have enough curiosity. They stopped ask questions.

In other words, we are closed minded b/c we don't believe what you do? I question all the time & can't help but to apply it to all parts of life. So much so, that it often drives my wife (and sometimes myself) crazy! Maybe it's a grad student curse. So anyways, be careful with generalizations.

 

[Alhamdulilah]

Boy! i left for a day and this has turned into debate! well it looks like people missed my point, so let me clear things up.

No. Science can NOT prove God. No matter how much you study.

To me, one of the most significant character of all atheists is that they do not have enough curiosity. They stopped ask questions.

Actually a scientist christian has come VERY close. i believe ThisSite can help.

But in Buddhism, devoution to the gods does not lead to enlightenment, therefore ''no god'' can lead to enlightenment regardless of the belief in the afterlife or ''personal status which is equivalent to being a god''.

People seem to be misunderstanding, the reason I brought up buddhist is because of its teachings, not because it is right, devotion is good, and thought is good.

If this does not explain it, no biggy. ( l like to see an active thread! )

 

[dewaddict84]

Why would people want to be an atheist?

JS-POG hit a lot of good reasons. I choose to be an atheist (ish) because it seemed the most likely world-view to be true. Others have said similar things, but that it wasn't then a choice, but I'd have to disagree. With every decision like this there is a certain amount of uncertainty. And with that there is well, wiggle room. You can reserve judgment, bank on undiscovered details, or simply stick your head in the ground and hope it isn't true. I've got a pretty quote for that:

Logic is one thing, the human animal another. You can quite easily propose a logical solution to something and at the same time hope in your heart of hearts it won't work out.
* Luigi Pirandello

And in the end, I chose this belief because I thought it would make the world a better place. Rationalism for the win.

So far, all the evidences said that we do not really know anything.

What now? We know all sorts of stuff. We know more then one person can ever hope to learn in a lifetime. As for "what was around before the big-bang?" welllll, yeah, there are gaps in our knowledge, but we never claimed to be omniscient. Look at it as a challenge, if you discover something new, maybe they'll name it after you and people will be measuring the juvenissun's of a whatnot gizzmo.

Every piece of scientific info you think you know is questionable.

Of course. To an extent. But every piece of evidence and positive test lends weight to believing in it. I believe that the sun will rise tomorrow because it always has in the past, I understand how the planets turn, and I don't foresee any cosmic event likely happening that would stop it. The basis for science is skepticism. If that disturbs you or something, perhaps I can ease your mind by saying that some things are so fantastically improbable that it's not even worth considering. Now, this may bite you in the rear if something truly fantastic happens, like Shiva descending on a pillar of light and saying hello or some such. But it certainly makes life simpler.

 

[Wicked Willow]

I was an atheist when I was young. As far as I can remember, I did not have a good reason to be an atheist. Now, this question is becoming more puzzling to me than ever. Why would people want to be an atheist?

1. Do you choose your beliefs and convictions according to what seems desirable? Or are they determined by what you consider to be true?
Some atheists may even feel that having an invisible father-figure provide a pleasant afterlife is vastly preferable to just dying - yet that doesn't make it true. To them, it's just an escapist fantasy.

2. Some people, particularly those who were raised in a fundamentalist household or community, feel stifled, threatened, and constrained by the religion they were brought up with. If those people come into contact with differing world views, and start to break away from a belief system that always struck them as utterly inadequate, they might indeed experience this as a downright positive experience.

3. The question that all atheists (who were once believers) must have asked themselves at some point is: are the tenets and claims of my religion compatible with reality and the natural universe? Some, especially those who feel emotionally attached to their religion, will probably find ways to rationalize the most obvious and glaring inconsistencies in their world view. Atheists, however, didn't.
They, like me, found the Abrahamaic conception of the universe to be utterly incompatible with reality.

 

[Eudaimonist]

No. Human beings haven't answered anything yet.

Not even to the question: "what is the shape of the Earth"? There is plenty that we do know. We may, of course, revisit the issues upon the acquisition of significant new evidence.

Wherever you go, you always ended with a lot of questions. It is very frustrating.

How often do theists ask: "is there a God?" Generally, they don't. They feel that they already know the answer to this, or at least have faith that there is a god (or many), and have moved on to more pressing questions.

I could say that such theists are lacking in curiosity, but I would be mistaken. They simply focus their curiosity elsewhere.

Atheists generally ask many questions, such as "what do we know of the natural universe?" and "how ought we to live in the natural universe?" This is why they are so often interested in science and philosophy.

Atheists are no less curious than theists, and often times they are more curious.

How much have you thought about the abortion problem? You stopped somewhere and take your side. Did you?

No. While I take a tentative side, I don't consider the matter settled in my mind.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Eudaimonist]

And atheism or atheist to me means people do not believe the existence of after-life.

Atheists can believe in an afterlife. The only thing they can't believe in and still be atheists is the existence of a god.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Dharma Wheel]

If you are a scientist, you examine small things, large things, old things and future possibilities. And you also see the development of human civilization. I don't think anyone would feel that the wish of knowing everything in the future is realistic. You need to know: In the field of science, we know nothing, so far. Every piece of scientific info you think you know is questionable.

Actually, there are such things as science facts. For instance we know that the Earth is round, we know that humans need oxygen, we know a lot about the stars and we already know a lot about the age of the Earth. Saying that every bit of scientific info is questionable is somewhat absurd.

 

[juvenissun]

Sounds like my story, only in reverse. I was brought up as a christian, just like i was brought up to believe in santa. I didn't have a good reason to believe in either. It seemed the grown ups believed it, so why wouldn't I, right?



I doubt many, if anyone wants to be an atheist. You're not considering that people's beliefs, in regards to anything, can change over time. I started actively questioning & disagreeing on religion without ever thinking, "hey, I'm becoming an atheist." That's not how it works. My deconversion probably took a year or so, and I remember visiting an atheist website & agreeing with a lot of what I read. So eventually I began to consider myself an atheist. But at first I was quite apathetic about it & honestly wasn't even aware I was becoming an atheist.



Have heard this one a lot. So are you saying it would be better for me to believe in the many Hindu gods, which I expect you believe do not exist, than to not believe in any gods at all? What if I believed in a god which was in direct opposition to your beliefs? I've been on both sides of the fence...can't see a reason why I should believe even if I could.



I'll tell you at least how it all started with me. ...All of the absurd old testament stories completely against everything we know. The flood was especially absurd, but it was always fun seeing christians come up with varying, conflicting, or just plain stupid rationalizations (excuses). And that's just where it started...the rest is history.

You DO have a lot questions about life unanswered. That is the very basic reason that you should look at religion and consider them. Being an atheist is self-cheating. You may choose ANY religion you like to. Or even as the example I gave, make up your own god (and use it to answer your question). But you don't have a reason to be an atheist and leave the life-death questions unanswered.

For example, you may think death is the end of your life. But why don't you consider the near-death-experience reports? Did you study them? Why do you dismiss the possibility?

 

[juvenissun]

How did you feel about other religions at that time? Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, and so forth? What made you seek and learn about Christianity, as opposed to the others? Did you reject others, or no?

-Lyn

I was deep in Buddhism and oriental philosophy. But I married a Christian wife and she demanded me to go to church with her.

That is why. Nothing special.

I am still very interested in other religions. But my faith to Christianity is finally established. Christianity can answer my questions much better than any other religion/philosophy.

 

[juvenissun]

In other words, we are closed minded b/c we don't believe what you do? I question all the time & can't help but to apply it to all parts of life. So much so, that it often drives my wife (and sometimes myself) crazy! Maybe it's a grad student curse. So anyways, be careful with generalizations.

No, you are closed minded because you stop trying to answer your own questions. There is nothing to do with what others believe.

 

[juvenissun]

JS-POG hit a lot of good reasons. I choose to be an atheist (ish) because it seemed the most likely world-view to be true. Others have said similar things, but that it wasn't then a choice, but I'd have to disagree. With every decision like this there is a certain amount of uncertainty. And with that there is well, wiggle room. You can reserve judgment, bank on undiscovered details, or simply stick your head in the ground and hope it isn't true. I've got a pretty quote for that:

And in the end, I chose this belief because I thought it would make the world a better place. Rationalism for the win.


What now? We know all sorts of stuff. We know more then one person can ever hope to learn in a lifetime. As for "what was around before the big-bang?" welllll, yeah, there are gaps in our knowledge, but we never claimed to be omniscient. Look at it as a challenge, if you discover something new, maybe they'll name it after you and people will be measuring the juvenissun's of a whatnot gizzmo.


Of course. To an extent. But every piece of evidence and positive test lends weight to believing in it. I believe that the sun will rise tomorrow because it always has in the past, I understand how the planets turn, and I don't foresee any cosmic event likely happening that would stop it. The basis for science is skepticism. If that disturbs you or something, perhaps I can ease your mind by saying that some things are so fantastically improbable that it's not even worth considering. Now, this may bite you in the rear if something truly fantastic happens, like Shiva descending on a pillar of light and saying hello or some such. But it certainly makes life simpler.

That is the essence of Communism faith. It broke.
We can not make tomorrow a better world. We may do the reverse.
Do you want to become a nanobot? (a part of you are operated by nano robots in your body)

 

[juvenissun]

1. Do you choose your beliefs and convictions according to what seems desirable? Or are they determined by what you consider to be true?
Some atheists may even feel that having an invisible father-figure provide a pleasant afterlife is vastly preferable to just dying - yet that doesn't make it true. To them, it's just an escapist fantasy.

2. Some people, particularly those who were raised in a fundamentalist household or community, feel stifled, threatened, and constrained by the religion they were brought up with. If those people come into contact with differing world views, and start to break away from a belief system that always struck them as utterly inadequate, they might indeed experience this as a downright positive experience.

3. The question that all atheists (who were once believers) must have asked themselves at some point is: are the tenets and claims of my religion compatible with reality and the natural universe? Some, especially those who feel emotionally attached to their religion, will probably find ways to rationalize the most obvious and glaring inconsistencies in their world view. Atheists, however, didn't.
They, like me, found the Abrahamaic conception of the universe to be utterly incompatible with reality.

That is true and is reasonable. But the situation should not continue.
Suppose you are out of school and freed from the pressure of tests. That may make you feel good for a while. But not for long. After the feeling of the false freedom, you still need to go back to face the reality, which is the question about YOUR OWN life, not whatever said by whoever the authority is.

 

[juvenissun]

Actually, there are such things as science facts. For instance we know that the Earth is round, we know that humans need oxygen, we know a lot about the stars and we already know a lot about the age of the Earth. Saying that every bit of scientific info is questionable is somewhat absurd.

Take it one at a time:

Why should the earth be round? (we see the fact, but we do not know why!)

Pick up one thing you know the best to see if I can give you a question which you must say: I don't know.

 

[juvenissun]

Not even to the question: "what is the shape of the Earth"? There is plenty that we do know. We may, of course, revisit the issues upon the acquisition of significant new evidence.



How often do theists ask: "is there a God?" Generally, they don't. They feel that they already know the answer to this, or at least have faith that there is a god (or many), and have moved on to more pressing questions.

I could say that such theists are lacking in curiosity, but I would be mistaken. They simply focus their curiosity elsewhere.

Atheists generally ask many questions, such as "what do we know of the natural universe?" and "how ought we to live in the natural universe?" This is why they are so often interested in science and philosophy.

Atheists are no less curious than theists, and often times they are more curious.



No. While I take a tentative side, I don't consider the matter settled in my mind.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Many do. Human is not stupid. They do ask all kinds of questions. In particular when the person is dedicated to the effort. One of my very impressive experience is: whatever question you can think of, many people have already thought A LOT about it. No exception.

I did and I still do. But I learned that the answer is most likely a YES. It takes me many years to do that.

 

[juvenissun]

Atheists can believe in an afterlife. The only thing they can't believe in and still be atheists is the existence of a god.


eudaimonia,

Mark

There is no need to jump to any god.

If you believe the existence of an afterlife, you are not an atheist.
You may give a name to the afterlife. Common ones are Spirit, Soul, Ghost. What else? This kind of thing has a long history everywhere in the world. In fact, it is the beginning of many religions.

Again, if one believes the afterlife, he or she is not an atheist.