Good reason to be an atheist?(moved from Christian Appologetics)

[Wicked Willow]

There is no need to jump to any god.

If you believe the existence of an afterlife, you are not an atheist.
You may give a name to the afterlife. Common ones are Spirit, Soul, Ghost. What else? This kind of thing has a long history everywhere in the world. In fact, it is the beginning of many religions.

Again, if one believes the afterlife, he or she is not an atheist.

That does not follow.
The only defining characteristic of the term atheist is not believing in a deity. Any other supernatural beliefs are not covered by the term.
An atheist could believe in UFOs, an afterlife, spirits, ghosts, telepathy, reincarnation, Elvis's evil twin - and STILL be an atheist, provided that he does not believe in any deity as well.

 

[Super_Rational]

You DO have a lot questions about life unanswered.

Most people probably do. I like to question. Some are just afraid of the answers and insert god where it doesn't belong.

That is the very basic reason that you should look at religion and consider them.

I'm years beyond that "questioning religion" stage. But that doesn't mean I have the answers to everything or have stopped questioning in general. It means I think my conclusions are well-justified. But I'm always open to new evidence. But what makes you think I haven't considered religion? My deconversion took a year or so. Don't you think I might have considered it since then? I grew up christian, went to church often (many), went to sunday school, youth groups, church camps, etc. Been there...done that. Some of this while I was atheist. Telling me to consider religion...well you might as well be asking me to reconsider santa. Religion is, after all, like santa for adults.

Being an atheist is self-cheating.

I would have said "more fulfilling."

make up your own god (and use it to answer your question)

I don't want answers that make me feel good. I just want them to be correct. Making up answers is easy.

But you don't have a reason to be an atheist and leave the life-death questions unanswered.

Usually these great life/death questions only apply to the religious as they generally beg made-up answers.

For example, you may think death is the end of your life. But why don't you consider the near-death-experience reports? Did you study them? Why do you dismiss the possibility?

I've only seen summaries of some of these. I don't have time to hunt down the full study. But again why do you think I haven't considered them? I have, and I've dismissed them. Why would I trust someone who's seen something after severe trauma, or with an oxygen-deprived brain, or who is heavily medicated. How about the book "23 minutes in hell"? I mean it was the guy's dreams. And what do you know, his dreams match what many preachers say about hell every sunday. please.

 

[Eudaimonist]

You may give a name to the afterlife. Common ones are Spirit, Soul, Ghost. What else? This kind of thing has a long history everywhere in the world. In fact, it is the beginning of many religions.

Again, if one believes the afterlife, he or she is not an atheist.

That doesn't follow. Believing in "spirit", "soul", or "ghost" doesn't make one a theist. One can believe in such things and be an atheist.

If you don't want to correct your unusual definition, you may want to consider that Buddhism does not believe in an eternal soul! Buddhism takes a no-soul position. Buddhist "rebirth" (what amounts to an afterlife in Buddhism) is not a transfer of a soul from one body to another, but only the influence of karma (the cause associated with intentional action) on future lives in which there is then vipaka (the fruit or effect of karma).

An atheist could very easily take a similar position to Buddhist rebirth.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Penumbra]

I was deep in Buddhism and oriental philosophy. But I married a Christian wife and she demanded me to go to church with her.

That is why. Nothing special.

I am still very interested in other religions. But my faith to Christianity is finally established. Christianity can answer my questions much better than any other religion/philosophy.

She demanded you go to church with her?

Anyway, which questions did you have that were answered specifically by Christianity?

-Lyn

 

[Super_Rational]

No, you are closed minded because you stop trying to answer your own questions. There is nothing to do with what others believe.

Ah, the old close-minded argument. I figured this would be brought up. If I were close minded, I would still be a christian, right? I would never have changed my beliefs in the first place. Right? I've answered my questions and moved on. That's not being closed minded. Who knows, if a decent argument were actually put forth, it may cause me to rethink. But I'm not impressed.

 

[Super_Rational]

IMO, the problem with most religions is not the questions, but the "answers", or what passes for answers within their specific cosmological frameworks.

See you're just being close-minded. You just need to reconsider those answers until you're a christian.

 

[JGG]

Sorry for not replying your mail.

For example, do you believe the existence of sixth sense?

Firstly, can you help by defining what this sixth sense you're referring to is? There is some evidence of a sixth (and possbily other senses), however its not the sort of thing that requires much faith (for example a sensitivity to magnetism). What does believing in a sixth sense have to do with asking questions about it?

Well, this is just an example. In fact, if you keep asking questions to anything, you will find that you won't go very far.

Really? How do you figure this is more true for atheists than theists?

Put it this way, have you ever pursuing an unanswered question consistently till now? This type of question is virtually unlimited. For example, UFO, multiple universe, ghost, near-death experience, ancient technology, free will, etc. etc..

I have always been fascinated by the Pyramids, Stonehenge, and other ancient wonders. While not UFO's per se, I am still interested in the prospect of extra-terrestrial life. I also like to play with philosophy related to Hinduism and Buddhism despite not believing in them. I also tend to toy with concepts of determinism, behaviourism, destiny, and their implications on time travel, processes of thought, functions of the human brain, theories of the mind, human motivation, prejudice and discrimination, and whether Elvis really did manage to cheat death.

These are the sorts of things that interest me.

So, what do we take away from this?

 

[juvenissun]

Firstly, can you help by defining what this sixth sense you're referring to is? There is some evidence of a sixth (and possbily other senses), however its not the sort of thing that requires much faith (for example a sensitivity to magnetism). What does believing in a sixth sense have to do with asking questions about it?



Really? How do you figure this is more true for atheists than theists?



I have always been fascinated by the Pyramids, Stonehenge, and other ancient wonders. While not UFO's per se, I am still interested in the prospect of extra-terrestrial life. I also like to play with philosophy related to Hinduism and Buddhism despite not believing in them. I also tend to toy with concepts of determinism, behaviourism, destiny, and their implications on time travel, processes of thought, functions of the human brain, theories of the mind, human motivation, prejudice and discrimination, and whether Elvis really did manage to cheat death.

These are the sorts of things that interest me.

So, what do we take away from this?

All these features/questions have no answers.

BUT, if there were a positive answer to any of them, then it will have a serious consequence. In short, a positive answer of them will point toward the existence of some spiritual mechanism, which atheist usually take it as fictional.

So, there are multiple threads of argument. ANY one of them could lead to the bankruptcy of atheism.

 

[juvenissun]

Most people probably do. I like to question. Some are just afraid of the answers and insert god where it doesn't belong.



I'm years beyond that "questioning religion" stage. But that doesn't mean I have the answers to everything or have stopped questioning in general. It means I think my conclusions are well-justified. But I'm always open to new evidence. But what makes you think I haven't considered religion? My deconversion took a year or so. Don't you think I might have considered it since then? I grew up christian, went to church often (many), went to sunday school, youth groups, church camps, etc. Been there...done that. Some of this while I was atheist. Telling me to consider religion...well you might as well be asking me to reconsider santa. Religion is, after all, like santa for adults.



I would have said "more fulfilling."




I don't want answers that make me feel good. I just want them to be correct. Making up answers is easy.




Usually these great life/death questions only apply to the religious as they generally beg made-up answers.



I've only seen summaries of some of these. I don't have time to hunt down the full study. But again why do you think I haven't considered them? I have, and I've dismissed them. Why would I trust someone who's seen something after severe trauma, or with an oxygen-deprived brain, or who is heavily medicated. How about the book "23 minutes in hell"? I mean it was the guy's dreams. And what do you know, his dreams match what many preachers say about hell every sunday. please.

You are not serious about it. Anyone can read these info and have an opinion. That does not mean they are serious about it. The question is: Why are you not serious about it? You must be an expert about it to show the seriousness. Which one on this type of question you are deeply involved? If none, you are not serious about your own life.

Give you an example, I spent 40 years in studying the earth. I know for sure that nobody understand anything about the earth. I know the earth is not made by the theory atheist believes. Every answers atheist "knows for truth" about the earth is certainly wrong. Put god aside, this understanding serious undermines my faith to atheism.

 

[Wicked Willow]

Give you an example, I spent 40 years in studying the earth. I know for sure that nobody understand anything about the earth. I know the earth is not made by the theory atheist believes. Every answers atheist "knows for truth" about the earth is certainly wrong. Put god aside, this understanding serious undermines my faith to atheism.

If it's to be a draw between your understanding of the world and that of the likes of Einstein, Hawking and Dawkins - I'll place my money on the professors, thank you very much. Not because of their titles or prestige, but because they aren't afraid of gaps in their knowledge, seeing them as an opportunity rather than a threat, and don't make up some supernatural explanation.

 

[juvenissun]

That does not follow.
The only defining characteristic of the term atheist is not believing in a deity. Any other supernatural beliefs are not covered by the term.
An atheist could believe in UFOs, an afterlife, spirits, ghosts, telepathy, reincarnation, Elvis's evil twin - and STILL be an atheist, provided that he does not believe in any deity as well.

Yes, that is an argument by definition.

But, there is a consequence in believing any of those things. And the consequence WILL LEAD TO theism.

For example, if there is ghost, then there must be a lot of them. Then there must be a structure among them. Then there should be a king of ghost. And there should be a place for them to exist. And they may exist forever, or what would happen if a ghost "died"?

 

[Super_Rational]

You are not serious about it. Anyone can read these info and have an opinion. That does not mean they are serious about it. The question is: Why are you not serious about it? You must be an expert about it to show the seriousness. Which one on this type of question you are deeply involved?

Of course I'm not serious about it, are you kidding? Near death experiences are natural phenomena. There's nothing supernatural about it. Is there something supernatural about an LSD trip? Good luck finding just one reviewed paper which concludes that an NDE is a supernatural experience. (insert comment about how science has a secular, godless agenda)

If none, you are not serious about your own life.

Speak for yourself. I'm just not serious about your imaginary afterlife.

Give you an example, I spent 40 years in studying the earth. I know for sure that nobody understand anything about the earth. I know the earth is not made by the theory atheist believes. Every answers atheist "knows for truth" about the earth is certainly wrong.

Whoa! You better get to publishing! Experts in the field I'm sure can't wait to hear why their time-tested theories are wrong. Go ahead, shock the world! We need this knowledge which must be true!

Put god aside, this understanding serious undermines my faith to atheism.

Sounds like a conspiracy theory to me. Again, you should reveal your theories. If yours work better at explaining geology, you will instantly be famous the world over & will have money coming in from every direction to fund your groundbreaking research. What's holding you back?

 

[Super_Rational]

But, there is a consequence in believing any of those things. And the consequence WILL LEAD TO theism.

For example, if there is ghost, then there must be a lot of them. Then there must be a structure among them. Then there should be a king of ghost. And there should be a place for them to exist. And they may exist forever, or what would happen if a ghost "died"?

I agree I would be more inclined to believe in a god if I believed in ghosts. But they're both imaginary, superstitious nonsense. Btw, you can still be an atheist in the broadest sense if you believe in ghosts & such. To be an atheist, someone can't believe in gods, that's all. However, I would bet most atheists extend that to the supernatural. Myself included.

 

[juvenissun]

If it's to be a draw between your understanding of the world and that of the likes of Einstein, Hawking and Dawkins - I'll place my money on the professors, thank you very much. Not because of their titles or prestige, but because they aren't afraid of gaps in their knowledge, seeing them as an opportunity rather than a threat, and don't make up some supernatural explanation.

It is a quite different matter between not knowing the origin of the universe and not knowing what would happen to YOU after your death. You may not care about the former, but I don't think you do not care about the latter. Quit thinking about it does not make you any easier.

 

[juvenissun]

IMO, the problem with most religions is not the questions, but the "answers", or what passes for answers within their specific cosmological frameworks.

You don't know how life came to be? GOD did it!
You don't know how disease spreads? GOD did it!
You don't know how clouds and rain go together? Someone must have opened the floodgates in the sky-roof - and GOD did it!

It's silly, really. To me, the idea of a personal, supernatural deity obsessing about the morality of a species of talking, bipedal apes is downright absurd, and absolutely childish.

You do not have to accept their answers.
But it is probably a bad idea not to think about the questions.

 

[juvenissun]

Of course I'm not serious about it, are you kidding? Near death experiences are natural phenomena. There's nothing supernatural about it. Is there something supernatural about an LSD trip? Good luck finding just one reviewed paper which concludes that an NDE is a supernatural experience. (insert comment about how science has a secular, godless agenda)



Speak for yourself. I'm just not serious about your imaginary afterlife.



Whoa! You better get to publishing! Experts in the field I'm sure can't wait to hear why their time-tested theories are wrong. Go ahead, shock the world! We need this knowledge which must be true!



Sounds like a conspiracy theory to me. Again, you should reveal your theories. If yours work better at explaining geology, you will instantly be famous the world over & will have money coming in from every direction to fund your groundbreaking research. What's holding you back?

I don't have answers. I only have bunch of questions. That is holding on everyone except atheist. They seems to know everything.

 

[humblemuslim]

I agree I would be more inclined to believe in a god if I believed in ghosts. But they're both imaginary, superstitious nonsense. Btw, you can still be an atheist in the broadest sense if you believe in ghosts & such. To be an atheist, someone can't believe in gods, that's all. However, I would bet most atheists extend that to the supernatural. Myself included.

Supernatural - Relating to or attributed to phenomena that cannot be explained by natural laws

Using this as a definition for what is meant by supernatural.

If our method of determining such is based on our ability to explain it using the laws of nature as defined by us through sensual observation, then would not ignorance in the broader sense limit our ability to discern what would constitute as being "Supernatural"?

Considering we realize our eyes are unable to see a majority of the electromagnetic spectrum, what makes us believe that even the combination and culmination of our senses has the ability to witness everything that is natural in our world?

 

[Penumbra]

Using this as a definition for what is meant by supernatural.

If our method of determining such is based on our ability to explain it using the laws of nature as defined by us through sensual observation, then would not ignorance in the broader sense limit our ability to discern what would constitute as being "Supernatural"?

Considering we realize our eyes are unable to see a majority of the electromagnetic spectrum, what makes us believe that even the combination and culmination of our senses has the ability to witness everything that is natural in our world?

No one said we necessarily have the ability to witness everything natural. But to make claims and statements about what we cannot sense at all is pure guesswork, pure speculation.

-Lyn

 

[Penumbra]

I don't have answers. I only have bunch of questions. That is holding on everyone except atheist. They seems to know everything.

I've noticed the opposite. Religions usually consist of a series of answers (whether they are right or wrong answers).

Most atheists and agnostics I've talked to are quick to admit what they don't know. Ask them if they know in detail what happened in the earliest stages to cause the Big Bang, for instance, and most will say they don't know.

Earnestly admitting what you don't know is a huge help in discerning truth. The fact that we don't have all the answers is something we have to admit before we can truly begin finding answers.

-Lyn

 

[humblemuslim]

I don't have answers. I only have bunch of questions. That is holding on everyone except atheist. They seems to know everything.

Most of us have one last thing to learn:

I know nothing except the fact of my ignorance.
Socrates, from Diogenes Laertius, Lives of Eminent Philosophers