Good reason to be an atheist?(moved from Christian Appologetics)

Penumbra · Jul 19, 2009

2 King said:
From what I've observed as annual Atheist convetions is that atheists are people who, whether they like it or not, have the law of God written on their hearts (Rom. 2:15). They are subject to the same laws of our country (and other countries), and they have a sense of right and wrong. They often work with people who are religious and have ethical standards, as well as non-believers who are don't, so they are exposed to all sorts of moral behavior. In addition, they often form their own moral standards based on what suits them. Besides, things like robbery, lying, stealing, etc., can get you imprisoned, so it is practical and logical for an atheist to be ethical and work within the norms of social behavior. However you want to look at it, atheists, generally, are honest, hardworking people.

Nevertheless, some Christians raise the question, "What is to prevent an atheist from murdering and stealing? After all, they have no fear of God and no absolute moral code." The answer is simple: Atheists are capable of governing their own moral behavior and getting along in society the same as anyone else.

At the risk of labeling the atheist as self-centered, it does not serve the best interests of an atheist to murder and steal since it would not take long before he was imprisoned and/or killed for his actions. Basically, society will only put up with so much if it is to function smoothly. So, if an atheist wants to get along and have a nice life, murdering and stealing won't accomplish it. It makes sense for him to be honest, work hard, pay his bills, and get along with others. Basically, he has to adopt a set of ethics common to society in order to do that. Belief in God is not a requirement for ethical behavior or an enjoyable life.

I think you are assessing the inner world and perspective of all atheists based on how you might think if you were an atheist. You're displaying how you would feel and assuming all people would feel that way. Just like some Christians, Jews, Hindus, and Muslims, some atheists primarily care only about what affects them. Just like other Christians, Jews, Hindus, and Muslims, other atheists have compassion for other people and do many things that don't help their own self. In other words, it's not like all atheists avoid going on robbing and murdering sprees simply for fear of getting caught. Most feel the same things others would feel, an avoidance of harming others for the simple fact that they have compassion and don't want to harm others.

I don't think I have any laws of gods written on my heart. Or if I do, they're not Yahweh's laws, because I've read his biography and it certainly doesn't align with my heart.

2 King · Jul 19, 2009

Penumbra said:
I think you are assessing the inner world and perspective of all atheists based on how you might think if you were an atheist. You're displaying how you would feel and assuming all people would feel that way.

Difference is, I've debated with various atheists. Also, I don't have to assume when I can clearly and plainly ask, recieve, and even have Atheists describe themselves for me. Regardless, I don't see the point of this, it certainly isn't telling me anything new. I already know that people say one thing, and do another.

Just like some Christians, Jews, Hindus, and Muslims, some atheists primarily care only about what affects them. Just like other Christians, Jews, Hindus, and Muslims, other atheists have compassion for other people and do many things that don't help their own self. In other words, it's not like all atheists avoid going on robbing and murdering sprees simply for fear of getting caught.

Are you Atheist?

Most feel the same things others would feel, an avoidance of harming others for the simple fact that they have compassion and don't want to harm others.

You, who just said I assesed, are doing the exact same thing.

I don't think I have any laws of gods written on my heart. Or if I do, they're not Yahweh's laws, because I've read his biography and it certainly doesn't align with my heart.

Then you admit you aren't ethical and submit to the post I had previous to this.

Penumbra · Jul 19, 2009

2 King said:
Difference is, I've debated with various atheists. Also, I don't have to assume when I can clearly and plainly ask, recieve, and even have Atheists describe themselves for me. Regardless, I don't see the point of this, it certainly isn't telling me anything new. I already know that people say one thing, and do another.

So you've had the majority of atheists tell you that the only reason they don't murder and steal is because they don't want prison?

Are you Atheist?

I don't currently have any supernatural beliefs. atheist/agnostic/seeker

You, who just said I assesed, are doing the exact same thing.

Firstly, I was careful to use the word "most".

Secondly, you were describing a group with beliefs different from yours and how they think. I was including myself and those I know personally in my description, as well as people I've talked to.

Then you admit you aren't ethical and submit to the post I had previous to this.

I find certain things ethical and I follow those ethics as best I can, just like everyone else. You said everyone has the law of god written on their heart, and I'm contesting that by pointing out that I disagree with many of the ethics presented in the books that people wrote about this god.

-Lyn

2 King · Jul 19, 2009

Penumbra said:
So you've had the majority of atheists tell you that the only reason they don't murder and steal is because they don't want prison?

No, plenty other reasons.

Firstly, I was careful to use the word "most".

Secondly, you were describing a group with beliefs different from yours and how they think. I was including myself and those I know personally in my description, as well as people I've talked to.

So I noticed.

I find certain things ethical and I follow those ethics as best I can, just like everyone else. You said everyone has the law of god written on their heart, and I'm contesting that by pointing out that I disagree with many of the ethics presented in the books that people wrote about this god.

Which leads me to ask you...If you currently have no supernatural beliefs. What is the purpose in living ethical to the best of your ability?

2 King · Jul 19, 2009

There are two main categories of atheists: strong and weak, with variations in between.

Strong atheists actively believe and state that no God exists. They expressly denounce the Christian God along with any other god. Strong atheists are usually more aggressive in their conversations with theists and try to shoot holes in theistic beliefs. They like to use logic and anti-biblical evidences to denounce God's existence. They are active, often aggressive, and openly believe that there is no God.

Agnostic Atheists, as I call them, are those who deny God's existence based on an examination of evidence. Agnosticism means 'not knowing,' or 'no knowledge.' I call them agnostic because they state they have looked at the evidence and have concluded that there is no God, but they say they are open to further evidence for God's existence.

Weak atheists simply exercise no faith in God. The weak atheist might be better explained as a person who lacks belief in God the way a person might lack belief that there is a green lizard in a rocking chair on the moon; it isn't an issue. He doesn't believe it or not believe it.

Finally, there is a group of atheists that I call Militant atheists. They are, fortunately, few in number. They are usually highly insulting and profoundly terse in their comments to theists, particularly Christians. Ive encountered a few of them and they are vile, rude, and highly condescending. Their language is full of insults, profanity, and blasphemies. Basically, no meaningful conversation can be held with them.

Penumbra · Jul 19, 2009

2 King said:
Which leads me to ask you...If you currently have no supernatural beliefs. What is the purpose in living ethical to the best of your ability?

Because I feel for other people and creatures and so don't want to hurt them. They feel the same pain I feel when things are bad for them.

-Lyn

Fixation On God · Jul 19, 2009

Penumbra said:
Because I feel for other people and creatures and so don't want to hurt them. They feel the same pain I feel when things are bad for them.

-Lyn

Then you have the Law of God written on your heart. I found this conversation between the two of you to be fairly contridictory.

Penumbra · Jul 19, 2009

Fixation On God said:
Then you have the Law of God written on your heart. I found this conversation between the two of you to be fairly contridictory.

The Bible includes God commanding genocide, animal sacrifice, military conquest, worship, and so forth. It includes him being wrathful and jealous, and even flooding the world. Moses, Joshua, and Elijah were this way as well. Do you not believe he once issued those commands? Then there is the Christian belief in hell.

-Lyn

Fixation On God · Jul 19, 2009

Penumbra said:
The Bible includes God commanding genocide, animal sacrifice, military conquest, worship, and so forth. It includes him being wrathful and jealous, and even flooding the world. Do you not believe he once issued those commands? Then there is the Christian belief in hell.

-Lyn

what is your point?

Isambard · Jul 19, 2009

Fixation On God said:
what is your point?

That you are being deceptively selective about what God commands in the bible.

Fixation On God · Jul 19, 2009

2 King said:
From what I've observed as annual Atheist convetions is that atheists are people who, whether they like it or not, have the law of God written on their hearts (Rom. 2:15).

From the verse 2K supported. I don't have to be selective

Penumbra · Jul 19, 2009

Fixation On God said:
what is your point?

Basically what Isambard responded with.

I'm not going to agree that a god's law is written on my heart if you only take out a small portion of what's in the Bible and call that god's law. From reading the Bible, I say that taken as a whole, the Bible is nowhere near my heart. You're being deceptive by pointing out that if I care about other people and creatures, then god's law is written on my heart, but then becoming apparently confused about my point when I bring up the fact that genocide, conquest, animal sacrifice, wrath, and jealousy, are all included in the Bible as aspects of god and his people.

Any scripture of a religion I've read has had some things I agree with, including the Bible. But taken as a whole, definitely not.

-Lyn

Penumbra · Jul 19, 2009

juvenissun said:
Not every atheists posted on this thread acknowledged that the existence of God is the premise of the discussion. You may be one. So I will respond accordingly.

I'm not sure you understood, or maybe I conveyed that point poorly.

My point was that discussion of a life being more valuable if that life is eternal and with god hinges on an atheist temporarily accepting the premise that this god exists so that the details of that premise can be discussed. Without this premise actually being true, any discussion of it is irrelevant. In other words, the position making the premise is fragile unless that premise is well supported. Any atheist that discusses the details of something like this is consciously or unconsciously setting aside the initial premise so that it can be discussed further. Otherwise no discussion would get past, "there's a god", "no, there's probably not".

What is the value to be with God? The concept of God includes meanings like: good, powerful, etc. So, on the opposite, no God means not good, powerless, etc. If you do not agree with this, then we should choose a word which contains these meanings and use that word as the concept of God.

So, the value of a life with God includes a good life and a powerful life. To some atheists, may be the word "good" also needs to be defined. In fact, it is an important word, usually misunderstood and abused.

What is the value of a good, powerful life, and who is it valuable to? Is it objectively valuable, meaning than any single person would find it valuable, or is it only valuable to some individuals?

It seems we've come to a few points. Firstly, that the actual value of a theist or atheist is inherently the same while on Earth. Secondly, that the value of the life of a theist becomes more valuable in the afterlife, apparently because they are powerful and good. I'd like to see this fleshed out a bit, about how a powerful/good life has value, whether it's objectively valuable, and who it is valuable for.

-Lyn

juvenissun · Jul 19, 2009

Penumbra said:
I'm not sure you understood, or maybe I conveyed that point poorly.

My point was that discussion of a life being more valuable if that life is eternal and with god hinges on an atheist temporarily accepting the premise that this god exists so that the details of that premise can be discussed. Without this premise actually being true, any discussion of it is irrelevant. In other words, the position making the premise is fragile unless that premise is well supported. Any atheist that discusses the details of something like this is consciously or unconsciously setting aside the initial premise so that it can be discussed further. Otherwise no discussion would get past, "there's a god", "no, there's probably not".

What is the value of a good, powerful life, and who is it valuable to? Is it objectively valuable, meaning than any single person would find it valuable, or is it only valuable to some individuals?

It seems we've come to a few points. Firstly, that the actual value of a theist or atheist is inherently the same while on Earth. Secondly, that the value of the life of a theist becomes more valuable in the afterlife, apparently because they are powerful and good. I'd like to see this fleshed out a bit, about how a powerful/good life has value, whether it's objectively valuable, and who it is valuable for.

-Lyn

Yes, the premise is that God exists.

So, the life will certainly be different if it is with God, or it is without God (otherwise, you denied the existence of God). However, I am not able to describe the value of having eternal life with God to you because I am not there yet. However, you may imagine the differences simply by logic.

The value of life is also different on the earth, with God or without God. There are a lot of noise on human behavior, so this difference can not always be easily seen. A dramatic example is usually heard:

Soldier: Deny your (Christian) God, or I will kill you.
Christian: .....

It is a historical fact, which defied logic explanation, and it clearly shows the value system.

juvenissun · Jul 19, 2009

Thomas The Atheist said:
If what I say is true, how can you still believe if you acknowledge that man invented God? how can you, with all your heart, love and your whole being devote yourself to something you know that is just... a lie?

If man did not "invent" God, how would anyone know God?

If God talks to me, then I tell you that. It is perfectly logic that you can think that I "invented" it, regardless what really happen. So, to believe or not to believe the "invention" is not the point. We should examine what the invention is about. Many atheists do not do that, or not doing it enough.

I did examine the "invention" for 30+ years. And I am convinced the invention is true.

juvenissun · Jul 19, 2009

Tinker Grey said:
So you would opt for a subjectively objective set of "absolutes".

Hi, nice to see you again.

SiderealExalt · Jul 19, 2009

2 King said:
The Bible teaches love, patience, and seeking the welfare of others even when it might harm the Christian. In contrast, the atheists' presuppositions must be constantly changing and subjective, and do not demand love, patience, and the welfare of others. Instead, since the great majority of atheists are evolutionists, their morality, like evolution, is the product of purely natural and random processes that become self-serving.

Basically, the atheist cannot claim any moral absolutes at all. To an atheist, ethics must be variable and evolving. This could be good or bad, but with human nature being what it is, I'll opt for the moral absolutes -- based on God's word -- and not on the subjective and changing morals that atheism offers.

Myopia. It has often been observed by people that the bible also teaches or examples a variety of rather unsavory "values". That is your first assumption. Your second being that evolution is a "purely random processes that becomes self serving." Do you know ANYTHING about evolutionary theories details?

Christianity, and Christians interestingly enough do not have "absolute morals". Absolute morality is a self contradictory concept. Morality is by definition, relative. Having subjective religious morality, and trying to lord those subjective morals over someone elses subjective morals is a dead end alley.

Statistically...just looking at say the United States for example. It appears that those horribly self serving atheists and their values keep their noses clean better than their religious counterparts. Looking at the world at large...apparently nonreligious populations live quite well and moral.

SiderealExalt · Jul 19, 2009

2 King said:
They have the law of God written on their hearts. Everyone does, Atheist or Christian, You were born with the Law of God written on your heart.

Completley understandable, considering the way I presented my case. But you must understand, that I did not count on providing that Atheists have morals or ethics. I, rather, provided that later. in Post #299

Circumstances....possibly. Regardless. I provided why Athesists are ethical and why they aren't ethical. as you see in Post #299

Actually it's that all souls are weighed by the feather of Ma'at by Anubis. Duh everyone knows that silly

SiderealExalt · Jul 19, 2009

This btw has been a rather odd surreal trip through seeing how theists so often having mistaken assumptions about atheism and atheists btw.

Tinker Grey · Jul 19, 2009

juvenissun said:
Hi, nice to see you again.

Howdy

Good reason to be an atheist?(moved from Christian Appologetics)

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