Good reason to be an atheist?(moved from Christian Appologetics)

[WingsOfEagles07]

The largest and most glaringly obvious problem (among many) is that accepting that evolution is a part of nature in no way implies what you seem to think it implies.

You know what is weird? The United States was founded upon Christian Principles and the Nation was Improving because of it, Now we have fallen away from JESUS and look where we are, Were in an Economical Crisis. Evolution did not even begin to become into realization of Studies until the 1800's ... Creation has existed until the beginning point of Creation, Creationists know what happened in the Beginning by the Biblical Account of Creation, as of Evolution and its account of Creation did not come into being after the 1800's which leaves thousands of years in between The two, and for a Man who is created Fallible to come up with his BELIEF of how the world came into being can be nothing more than a Fallacy because the Evidence does not sum up to a Singularity exploding and here we are. Wow. What evidence for that, If that truly happened how do we know that it happened? You cannot know if it happened because it already happened, no one can go back in the Past by thousands of years and say, " THIS IS THE WAY THE WORLD WAS CREATED, THIS IS THE ONLY WAY, NO GOD COULD HAVE DONE THIS "

You cannot Prove that GOD did not create this Universe, If So prove it to me that you know 100% "Genuine Knowledge" That you guys know that there is no GOD who created the Universe. Give a Reasonable Logical Explanation to me, At how you know there is not GOD at the same time being Rational and Internally consistent with the Preconditions of Intelligibility Inside your worldview belief system that claims to know the Origins of the Universe.

 

[Isambard]

You all still do not get what Im Saying.

Noone does. This is due to glaring grammatical errors.

You all do not know the definition of Worldview that I am talking about here, and I know you all will go to Dictionary and find all the Fallible information you can about it.

Wait, are you saying the dictionary definition is wrong because it doesn't agree with your definition?

You said that I made a Strawman argument well according to Evolution that which I said is possible since after all, The water, Magma, and other chemicals just randomly bumped into each and made RNA Formations ...etc... These things can be made into Chemical Reactions, Not a Strawman argument for Evolution.I mean you all even believe that the universe came to be through a Singularity then it exploded and here we are we have Millions of Miles times Billions of Light Years, Planets, Stars, Galaxies with certain forms of gas, We have our Sun in our Solar System, and There is also the biggest one we have found Betelgeuse, But then there is only one planet in the Universe that has Oxygen, Plants, Animals and Humans, and This bang made the Male and Female reproductive parts, along with the animals also, It made all the fish in the waters of the earth.

Yes, defineatly a strawman. You have absolutely no idea what the theory of evolution actually entails.

I've got to say, to say that this happened is just stupid, Even If I was an Evolutionist I would not buy into that Crap. NO bang happened.

Evolution =/ cosmology

I have no Credibility, Well, You all still have not given me what I Have asked for countless times already, and Yet you all still refuse to do it.

I imagine thats because much of what you write is nonsensical.

Yes Evolutionists have Morals to thing and People, but In their worldview there is Basis for Morality in a Logical Explanation Manner, Therefore, Makes Evolution Irrational.

Yeah, I have absolutely no idea what you are saying here.

 

[Isambard]

You know what is weird? The United States was founded upon Christian Principles and the Nation was Improving because of it, Now we have fallen away from JESUS and look where we are, Were in an Economical Crisis.

I'd love to see your citation of an econ. textbook where it says lack of Jesus causes finance meltdown.

Evolution did not even begin to become into realization of Studies until the 1800's ... Creation has existed until the beginning point of Creation, Creationists know what happened in the Beginning by the Biblical Account of Creation, as of Evolution and its account of Creation did not come into being after the 1800's which leaves thousands of years in between The two, and for a Man who is created Fallible to come up with his BELIEF of how the world came into being can be nothing more than a Fallacy because the Evidence does not sum up to a Singularity exploding and here we are.

The irony of course is that you are writing all this on a computer, a device who's technology and research powering it is less than a century old.

Wow. What evidence for that, If that truly happened how do we know that it happened? You cannot know if it happened because it already happened, no one can go back in the Past by thousands of years and say, " THIS IS THE WAY THE WORLD WAS CREATED, THIS IS THE ONLY WAY, NO GOD COULD HAVE DONE THIS "

Objective evidence, something I'm sure you;ve never heard of.

You cannot Prove that GOD did not create this Universe, If So prove it to me that you know 100% "Genuine Knowledge" That you guys know that there is no GOD who created the Universe.

Burden of proof is on you to prove there is a) A creator God, b) He created everything like the bible said he did.

Give a Reasonable Logical Explanation to me, At how you know there is not GOD at the same time being Rational and Internally consistent with the Preconditions of Intelligibility Inside your worldview belief system that claims to know the Origins of the Universe.

Take an english course then re-write this paragraph.

 

[ACougar]

You know what is weird? The United States was founded upon Christian Principles and the Nation was Improving because of it,

No, it was founded on enlightenment principles.

Now we have fallen away from JESUS and look where we are, Were in an Economical Crisis. Evolution did not even begin to become into realization of Studies until the 1800's ...

So while we practiced slavery and commited genocide against native Americans we were a good Christian country... What is our current economic crisis compared to the Civil War or the great depression?

Creation has existed until the beginning point of Creation, Creationists know what happened in the Beginning by the Biblical Account of Creation, as of Evolution and its account of Creation did not come into being after the 1800's which leaves thousands of years in between The two, and for a Man who is created Fallible to come up with his BELIEF of how the world came into being can be nothing more than a Fallacy because the Evidence does not sum up to a Singularity exploding and here we are. Wow. What evidence for that, If that truly happened how do we know that it happened? You cannot know if it happened because it already happened, no one can go back in the Past by thousands of years and say, " THIS IS THE WAY THE WORLD WAS CREATED, THIS IS THE ONLY WAY, NO GOD COULD HAVE DONE THIS "

You cannot Prove that GOD did not create this Universe, If So prove it to me that you know 100% "Genuine Knowledge" That you guys know that there is no GOD who created the Universe. Give a Reasonable Logical Explanation to me, At how you know there is not GOD at the same time being Rational and Internally consistent with the Preconditions of Intelligibility Inside your worldview belief system that claims to know the Origins of the Universe.

I'm sorry, I don't have the time or energy right now to unravel all the error in these paragraphs.

 

[Thomas The Atheist]

Main reason? well...

As many historicians, scientists and myself have come to realize that religion... is manmade. It was used to explain things and entertain to start with. Later on religion became something that was used by the rich patricians to keep the plebs under control, it was used to gain power and abuse alot of things, all by indoctrinating people with these tales.

f.e. people in colonies and now their descendants, truely believe what was told them.
If, back then, someone would have told them:
"and everything you see and know was created by the GIANT PURPLE FLOATING INVISIBLE SPAGHETTI MONSTER!" they would have just aswel believed it as people telling them: "Jesus and God did this." get it?


this is how a simple story invented and told amongst some people (one tribe of around 100 people) got passed on to their descendants. they slightly adjusted, exaggerated and added more length to it. time passed and, guess what, it became accepted as the general truth... and as explained above, it offered people an explanation for all sorts of things, it offered them amusement, comfort etc... because of this it would easily be taken over by other people (and later on get accepted as the genuine truth), and tadaa!
there you've got it! how all religion's came to be!

and that is why religions are fake. they aren't the truth. if you believe in any religion, you could just aswel believe in the amazing, the great, the mighty GIANT PURPLE FLOATING INVISIBLE SPAGHETTI MONSTER!!

 

[Penumbra]

You know what is weird? The United States was founded upon Christian Principles and the Nation was Improving because of it, Now we have fallen away from JESUS and look where we are, Were in an Economical Crisis. Evolution did not even begin to become into realization of Studies until the 1800's ... Creation has existed until the beginning point of Creation, Creationists know what happened in the Beginning by the Biblical Account of Creation, as of Evolution and its account of Creation did not come into being after the 1800's which leaves thousands of years in between The two, and for a Man who is created Fallible to come up with his BELIEF of how the world came into being can be nothing more than a Fallacy because the Evidence does not sum up to a Singularity exploding and here we are. Wow. What evidence for that, If that truly happened how do we know that it happened? You cannot know if it happened because it already happened, no one can go back in the Past by thousands of years and say, " THIS IS THE WAY THE WORLD WAS CREATED, THIS IS THE ONLY WAY, NO GOD COULD HAVE DONE THIS "

There are two issues with claiming the United States was founded on Christian principles.

-The first is that the Declaration of Independence, one of the principle moments/documents in the conception of that nation, was written by an Agnostic, Unitarian, Deist. (Thomas Jefferson). This man even went so far as to write his own version of the New Testament that has all the miracles and claims of divinity by Jesus stripped from it. Many of the other founders were influenced by Christianity but were free thinkers, and many were deists. So the idea that the nation was founded on Christian principals is unfounded.

-The second is that this nation was founded on a number of things, including slavery, racism, sexism (woman not having the right to vote), slaughter of those who were here first (Native Americans) and a list of other things. If you believe the United States WAS founded on Christian principals, despite many of they key founders being deist or agnostic, then you have to deal with the fact that these Christian principals apparently include racism, slavery, sexism, and slaughter. You can have your cake if you want, but you have to eat it. You begin claiming that falling away from Jesus and accepting evolution in the 1800s lead to our downfall, and yet blacks were freed from slavery in the mid to late 1800s, women were given the right to vote in the early 1900s, and all races were given equal rights well into the mid 1900s. Yeah, that sure is one big downhill slide.

You cannot Prove that GOD did not create this Universe, If So prove it to me that you know 100% "Genuine Knowledge" That you guys know that there is no GOD who created the Universe. Give a Reasonable Logical Explanation to me, At how you know there is not GOD at the same time being Rational and Internally consistent with the Preconditions of Intelligibility Inside your worldview belief system that claims to know the Origins of the Universe.

Hindus believe in Krishna. Jews believe in Yahweh. Christians believe in Jesus. Muslims believe in Allah. Pagans believe in other gods.

I don't declare truth on the matter of universal creation. You do by insisting that your god made this universe. It's not up to me to disprove thousands of claimed gods. If they want to, it's up to them to prove their god is real. I can point out many, many inconsistencies with Christianity and have done so in the past, but that is out of the scope of this thread.

-Lyn

 

[juvenissun]

Through the usual way -- through reasoning to persuasive conclusions.

Oh? Please explain that.

Do you mean that you teach classes six hours a week, and then do unpaid research for other hours in the week? What sort of research do you do?

Not that it matters. I'm just curious.

No. I work at a normal status in higher education system. I need to "talk" 6 hours for two courses each semester. But that is my full time job. I can do anything else I like to (sort of) for the rest of the time. What I play is to make geological modeling, such as how was a mountain, or a cave made.

I use reason, logic to make decisions all the time. So is everyone else. That is normal. However, my decision is not always right to many others, and not right to me, sometimes. And if I discussed options to others, I always get different opinions. So, I can not please everybody, I may regret my decisions. In other words, When I make decisions based on my logic. I don't really know if it is a right one. But if I make my decision based on my faith, then I know it is right regardless the outcome. In atheism, I don't see such a guideline. So, everyone has a different logic. The decision made based on personal logic can not go very far.

 

[juvenissun]

And that is something I continue a failing. It is similar to ''my, me , mine''; if you believe in Jesus you are superior and more valuable? That doesn't seem right and is something contrary to the Awakened One's wisdom and the wisdom of his followers, which I find superior due to the equality of all living beings in his teachings.

"Whatever living creatures there be, without exception, weak or strong, long, huge or middle-sized, or short, minute or bulky, whether visible or invisible, and those living far or near, the born and those seeking birth, may all beings be happy!" - Karaniya Metta Sutta

"So what of all these titles, names, and races? They are mere worldly conventions." -Sutta Nipata 648


"Although there are northern men and southern men, north and south make no difference to their Buddha-nature. A barbarian is different from Your Holiness physically, but there is no difference in our Buddha-nature." - Sutra of Hui Neng 1




val·u·a·ble (v

l

y

-

-b

l, v

l

y

-)adj.1. Having considerable monetary or material value for use or exchange: a valuable diamond.
2. Of great importance, use, or service: valuable information; valuable advice.
3. Having admirable or esteemed qualities or characteristics: a valuable friend.

n.


Alll life is invaluable.

No, no. Misunderstood.
In Christianity, one believes in Jesus "finds" value. The value is being with God. I am not more valuable than I was before I believe. The value is from God. I find value does not mean I "have" the value.

Yes, every HUMAN life is invaluable (but not animal life). But if no God, human life would not be valuable at all (think about one dumped with others in a massive grave). I would say that if I were an atheist, I would kill one hundred in order to get the one I want among them. This is a very logic consideration.

 

[juvenissun]

Alright, why would I be motivated to believe in God?

[qyote]And there are consequences to the belief. A belief is only a start. Everything follows.

Ummmm...what?

I don't believe in atheism. I can't believe in atheism. I simply don't believe in God/a god/gods. This happens to make me an atheist.

How does an atheist act?

I'm sorry, what?! Believing in Islam makes you kill infidels? Not believing in Christianity makes you...dead? That's what you're saying right?[/QUOTE]

You are playing the definition game. They are the same thing.

 

[Eudaimonist]

When I make decisions based on my logic. I don't really know if it is a right one. But if I make my decision based on my faith, then I know it is right regardless the outcome.

From my perspective, if you make a decision based on logic, you don't know with all-knowing certainty if it is a right one, but at least you can justify your conclusion.

If you make a decision based on your faith (and not on logic), you also don't know with all-knowing certainty if it is a right one, and worse yet you can't justify your conclusion other than to make a risky claim that you are the beneficiary of divine knowledge. You may feel that your conclusion is certain, but not in any way that involves knowledge.

You are no better off with faith, and may even be worse off.

In atheism, I don't see such a guideline. So, everyone has a different logic.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Logic is logic.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[juvenissun]

What? Some people who call or called themselves Christian kill people who believe differently than they do... some people who call or called themselves Muslim kill people who believe differently than they do. Most Christians and most Muslims do not kill people because they believe differently than they do.

I don't believe a belief is a difficult thing to have... when we reach the end of what we know and understand (or at least think we know and understand) we use belief to complete our cosmology and make it (relatively) complete. All human beings either form their own or accept some established body of beliefs, Atheist believe there is no God, Agnostics believe it's unknowable and/or unimportant, Christians have their set of beliefs, Buddhists have their set of beliefs, ect...

I did not say that. In fact, I said the opposite.

 

[juvenissun]

Main reason? well...

As many historicians, scientists and myself have come to realize that religion... is manmade. It was used to explain things and entertain to start with. Later on religion became something that was used by the rich patricians to keep the plebs under control, it was used to gain power and abuse alot of things, all by indoctrinating people with these tales.

f.e. people in colonies and now their descendants, truely believe what was told them.
If, back then, someone would have told them:
"and everything you see and know was created by the GIANT PURPLE FLOATING INVISIBLE SPAGHETTI MONSTER!" they would have just aswel believed it as people telling them: "Jesus and God did this." get it?


this is how a simple story invented and told amongst some people (one tribe of around 100 people) got passed on to their descendants. they slightly adjusted, exaggerated and added more length to it. time passed and, guess what, it became accepted as the general truth... and as explained above, it offered people an explanation for all sorts of things, it offered them amusement, comfort etc... because of this it would easily be taken over by other people (and later on get accepted as the genuine truth), and tadaa!
there you've got it! how all religion's came to be!

and that is why religions are fake. they aren't the truth. if you believe in any religion, you could just aswel believe in the amazing, the great, the mighty GIANT PURPLE FLOATING INVISIBLE SPAGHETTI MONSTER!!

What you said is true. But one should not find God by only looking at man. Particularly look at bad man. (See, we get into the debate of good and bad so easily. Where is the standard? You do not find that in human civilization.)

 

[Thomas The Atheist]

What you said is true. But one should not find God by only looking at man. Particularly look at bad man. (See, we get into the debate of good and bad so easily. Where is the standard? You do not find that in human civilization.)

If what I say is true, how can you still believe if you acknowledge that man invented God? how can you, with all your heart, love and your whole being devote yourself to something you know that is just... a lie?

 

[2 King]

The Bible teaches love, patience, and seeking the welfare of others even when it might harm the Christian. In contrast, the atheists' presuppositions must be constantly changing and subjective, and do not demand love, patience, and the welfare of others. Instead, since the great majority of atheists are evolutionists, their morality, like evolution, is the product of purely natural and random processes that become self-serving.

Basically, the atheist cannot claim any moral absolutes at all. To an atheist, ethics must be variable and evolving. This could be good or bad, but with human nature being what it is, I'll opt for the moral absolutes -- based on God's word -- and not on the subjective and changing morals that atheism offers.

 

[Tinker Grey]

So you would opt for a subjectively objective set of "absolutes".

 

[PT Calvinist]

I think I would opt for that.

 

[Eudaimonist]

In contrast, the atheists' presuppositions must be constantly changing and subjective, and do not demand love, patience, and the welfare of others.

How do you account for atheist ethicists that do advocate love, patience, and the welfare of others?

Instead, since the great majority of atheists are evolutionists, their morality, like evolution, is the product of purely natural and random processes that become self-serving.

I find that the word "random" is thrown about far too casually in these discussions. The morality of atheists is, like all morality, a product of human judgment, and is generally no more random or "self-serving" than religion-influenced morality. The natural processes of the human mind are not necessarily much like the natural processes of evolution. The analogy you present is dubious.

Basically, the atheist cannot claim any moral absolutes at all.

Not so. I claim that, for instance, rationality as a human virtue is an absolute. As long as there are human beings, it will forever be true that they ought to be rational. While the specifics regarding ethics may be refined over time, that doesn't mean that the basic framework for ethics must change.

To an atheist, ethics must be variable and evolving.

As long as ethics improves over time (according to the objective standard of human well-being) so that one may become ever more skillful and wise, we should be thankful when ethics is variable and evolving. It makes no sense to want to prevent ethics from improving. Otherwise, we'd be stuck condoning slavery.

An evolving ethic would be like an improving knowledge of medicine. Isn't it good that we no longer rely on leeches?


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Wicked Willow]

The Bible teaches love, patience, and seeking the welfare of others even when it might harm the Christian. In contrast, the atheists' presuppositions must be constantly changing and subjective, and do not demand love, patience, and the welfare of others. Instead, since the great majority of atheists are evolutionists, their morality, like evolution, is the product of purely natural and random processes that become self-serving.

Basically, the atheist cannot claim any moral absolutes at all. To an atheist, ethics must be variable and evolving. This could be good or bad, but with human nature being what it is, I'll opt for the moral absolutes -- based on God's word -- and not on the subjective and changing morals that atheism offers.

Ah, your post is SQUIRMING with errors.

1. The Bible/religion in general is a product of evolution, too, and can be analyzed in terms of evolutionary biology. (I.e. stress reduction and relief as important coping mechanisms, codes of conduct as a means of maintaining a relatively stable co-existence, etc.pp.)

2. Social impulses and instincts that are handed down by evolution are rarely self-serving, least of all in species that have carved out their niche by means of social group-bonding. Quite the contrary, those who'd jeopardize the welfare of the group as a whole are less likely to stay in the gene pool, as they cannot draw upon the support of the group as they, in turn, do not contribute to it.

3. Evolutionary biology describes an "is", not an "ought". Phenomena like a mother's self-sacrificial attempts at protecting her offspring and a mob's bloodthirsty slaughter can both be explained in terms of evolution - but that doesn't mean that the former and the latter are on an equal standing, morally speaking.

4. Moral absolutism contributes more to atrocities than a healthy sense of moral relativism ever could - simply because believing that there's an Authority that must not be questioned makes it possible to ignore all those pesky social instincts like the conscience, empathy and so forth.
Just look at the book of Joshua for a depiction of a religiously motivated genocide.

 

[2 King]

From what I've observed as annual Atheist convetions is that atheists are people who, whether they like it or not, have the law of God written on their hearts (Rom. 2:15). They are subject to the same laws of our country (and other countries), and they have a sense of right and wrong. They often work with people who are religious and have ethical standards, as well as non-believers who are don't, so they are exposed to all sorts of moral behavior. In addition, they often form their own moral standards based on what suits them. Besides, things like robbery, lying, stealing, etc., can get you imprisoned, so it is practical and logical for an atheist to be ethical and work within the norms of social behavior. However you want to look at it, atheists, generally, are honest, hardworking people.

Nevertheless, some Christians raise the question, "What is to prevent an atheist from murdering and stealing? After all, they have no fear of God and no absolute moral code." The answer is simple: Atheists are capable of governing their own moral behavior and getting along in society the same as anyone else.

At the risk of labeling the atheist as self-centered, it does not serve the best interests of an atheist to murder and steal since it would not take long before he was imprisoned and/or killed for his actions. Basically, society will only put up with so much if it is to function smoothly. So, if an atheist wants to get along and have a nice life, murdering and stealing won't accomplish it. It makes sense for him to be honest, work hard, pay his bills, and get along with others. Basically, he has to adopt a set of ethics common to society in order to do that. Belief in God is not a requirement for ethical behavior or an enjoyable life.

 

[2 King]

How do you account for atheist ethicists that do advocate love, patience, and the welfare of others?

They have the law of God written on their hearts. Everyone does, Atheist or Christian, You were born with the Law of God written on your heart.

I find that the word "random" is thrown about far too casually in these discussions. The morality of atheists is, like all morality, a product of human judgment, and is generally no more random or "self-serving" than religion-influenced morality. The natural processes of the human mind are not necessarily much like the natural processes of evolution. The analogy you present is dubious.

Completley understandable, considering the way I presented my case. But you must understand, that I did not count on providing that Atheists have morals or ethics. I, rather, provided that later. in Post #299

Not so. I claim that, for instance, rationality as a human virtue is an absolute. As long as there are human beings, it will forever be true that they ought to be rational. While the specifics regarding ethics may be refined over time, that doesn't mean that the basic framework for ethics must change.

Circumstances....possibly. Regardless. I provided why Athesists are ethical and why they aren't ethical. as you see in Post #299