Good 'OL LCMS

[RadMan]

January 23, 2008

"LCMS Losing the Real Jesus"

You can tell when a church body is losing its understanding of Jesus Christ
when it can't clearly state what the Bible says about Him. Clear words
about Jesus are substituted with confusing buzz words, fads, evasive speech,
and ambiguous terms to the point that people are no longer sure what they
are talking about.

At first no one really notices or understands where it is all going wrong,
and the next thing you discover is so much misunderstanding about Jesus that
the LCMS starts to look like the king's new clothes.

The Bible says that Jesus Christ is the only true God and true man in one
person. The Creed says that Jesus Christ "was incarnate by the Holy Ghost."
This means God took on human flesh in Christ. This is called the
incarnation. It never says He was the adjective "incarnational." This is
like turning the word "pregnant" into the adjective "pregnational" or
something characteristic of being pregnant, but we can't be sure just how
pregnant.

Nothing and no one is incarnate in the Bible except Jesus Christ. Nothing is
slightly, partially, approximately, or mostly incarnational. Jesus Christ
is the only God become man. The incarnation is not an adjective subject to
human speculation. It is a one-of-kind event and noun.

When everything starts becoming incarnational like Jesus Christ we have to
ask, "Just how incarnational is Jesus Christ?" Nothing has the attributes
of the Genus Idiomaticum except Jesus Christ.

In his Christmas message LCMS President Jerry Kieschnick described the
incarnation of Jesus Christ as "This incarnational act of God." We have to
ask, "How often does this happen?" Why is he using an adjective to describe
something that only happened once? Does President Kieshnick have any idea of
what he is really talking about?

The websites and literature of the LCMS and both seminaries have more
examples of something or someone or some activity as incarnational, or a
little bit like true God and true man, than we could possibly innumerate.
The following is a sampling of the word "incarnational" used in so many ways
that it really has no meaning at all. These vacuous, anti-Biblical phrases
are employed by the most learned LCMS theologians and Synodical officials,
and in the official doctrinal statements of the LCMS.

Incarnational marriage
Incarnational theology
Incarnational human care work
Incarnational and sacramental theology
The incarnational, expansionary movement of LCMS World Missions
The incarnational movement of LCMS World Missions
Incarnational presence
Incarnational tenor of theology
Incarnational life of Christ
As we are incarnational we are also sacramental
Luther's strong incarnational doctrinal (LCMS CTCR)
Incarnational Christology (LCMS CTCR)
The incarnational thrust of Advent and Christmas
Permit the sort of incarnational unity
Incarnational liturgy
Incarnational Lutheran worship
Incarnational Scriptures
Incarnational thought
Luther's Incarnational realism
Sacraments have incarnational dimensions
The baptismal language of John 3 . . . is recognizably incarnational
Incarnational understanding of the sacraments
she [the Deaconess] embodies Christ's incarnational care
The incarnational and atoning aspects of Christ's work
Theological truths and church practice have an incarnational basis
The incarnational and redemptory administration for salvation
The Incarnational Life
God reveals Himself-incarnationally, sacramentally and christologically
Incarnational aspect
Incarnational missions
Christian life goes on . . . incarnational level
Incarnational emphasis
Incarnational realities
The "incarnational nature" of God's revelation
The value of incarnational ministry
Revelation characterized as incarnational
Incarnational roots
Healthy Christian Sexuality: Incarnational Marriage
Incarnational approach to the Scriptures
The Christian pilgrimage is an incarnational life in Christ
We need an incarnational, relational ministry approach
When the pastor speaks he is the "incarnational presence of Christ."
Incarnational example in the servant role
Incarnational ministry
Incarnational ecclesiology.

Taken in aggregate no one could know who Jesus Christ is from the above
list. Rarely does one read so many Lutheran theologians with Doctor and
Reverend in front of their names who are so confused about the Two Natures
of Christ as we find in the LCMS. They have abandoned the historic
doctrinal categories and terminology of the Bible and the Lutheran
Confessions and are following their own imaginations.

A search of the internet will show that Baptists, Catholics, Greek Orthodox,
Reformed, Presbyterians, Episcopalians, Anglicans, Mennonites, and who knows
how many more, all claim "incarnational" as their own word, especially the
Greek Orthodox. "Incarnational" can mean whatever the writer wants to color
with his incarnational crayon. It's all good because in the LCMS it doesn't
really matter what you describe with attributes that belong only to Jesus
Christ.

How can the CTCR write about "incarnational Christology?" When did
Christology need a modifier? They may as well write about Christian
Christology, godly Christology, or divine Christology. How many
christologies are there?

On his web page, President Kieschnick describes the title "The Entire,
Whole, Complete God Died in Christ" as confusing and misleading. However,
Luther and the Lutheran Confessions use the very words "entire," "whole,"
and "complete" to describe Jesus Christ as the only true God. What part of
God didn't die on the cross, unless he believes that Persons are parts? He
declares Luther's and the Confessions' terminology as "confusing" while
inventing his own new terminology.

Kieschnick has little concern for traditional Lutheran terminology.
Therefore, it is little wonder that he describes the incarnation as "an
incarnational act." Incarnational is a word that had no real meaning and
that can't be found in the dictionary, Lutheran Cyclopedia, Luther, the
Confessions, Walther, or Pieper.

The LCMS "Every Sunday Bulletin Series" recently insulted the Wise Men by
calling them, "Ablaze." It's just more propaganda pumped out by the LCMS
Mission Department along with words like "incarnational" for the layman's
what-ever-we-want-you-to-believe-now list.

The LCMS says, "We control the religion. We will tell you what is true and
false. We will tell you what to believe about Jesus."

Many LCMS clergy and the Council of District Presidents are aware of the
confusion about Christ's identity in the LCMS but remain silent. When the
clergy can't speak clearly about Christ how can the laity know what they are
talking about?

(P. S. This article was written on an incarnational computer in an
incarnational church office and is therefore certifiably incarnational.)

 

[RadMan]

"Incarnational" is a popular meaningless term among LCMS theologians and
pastors.

Proliferation of the term "incarnational" is a hoax perpetrated by LCMS
clergy to give lay people nebulous assurance that Jesus is present in both
natures. However, many would be offended by the suggestion that this is
what they mean by "incarnational." Actually, many don't know what they mean
when they use the word.

The adjective "incarnational" is used to modify anything, anyone, or any
activity into an irresistible external Means of Grace, or as Rome says, "ex
opere operato."

If this is true the Devil should have been justified by the "incarnational"
presence of Christ after 40 days in the wilderness.

If the incarnational presence of Christ justifies, then all the people in
Jerusalem should have been saved when Christ visibly walked in their city.
But rather Christ warned: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the
prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have
gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under
her wings, and ye would not!" Matthew 23:37

How many LCMS theologians will admit that the so-called incarnational
presence of Christ does not save souls, does not justify, or actually have
any salvific effect what-so-ever? How many will admit that their use of the
term "incarnational" is not in the Bible, Luther, the Lutheran Confessions,
Walther, Pieper or any respected dictionary?

A man is only justified by faith in Christ, not by means, and not by the
incarnational presence of Christ. The only thing that saves souls is faith
in Christ.

Numerous LCMS theological papers, seminary publications, and websites speak
in glowing terms of incarnational theology, life, presence, liturgy,
worship, marriage, offices, organizations, sacraments, etc. These are all
attempts to invent new Means of Grace. They use "incarnational" to give
people a false hope about Jesus, and direct their audience away from
justification by faith in Christ alone.

First, there are only three Means of Grace listed in the Catechism.

Second, the Means of Grace are not incarnate nor incarnational. Only Christ
is incarnate. Nowhere does the Bible say that the whole Christ is present
in any Means of Grace. Even if it were possible that Christ's two natures
were externally present in the Means of Grace, a man is only justified by
faith, not by Christ's external presence.

Third, neither the external Means of Grace nor anything else that is falsely
called incarnational has any power to justify or effect salvation
independent of the recipient's disposition. A man is only justified by
faith in Christ and not by Christ indwelling them before or during
conversion.

The Romanist understanding of the Means of Grace and the Pastoral Office
falsely claims to place the incarnate Christ's power where it is not.

Here we let the Confessions answer: Apology Article XIII. (VII): Of the
Number and Use of the Sacraments. 23] "Moreover, no one can express in
words what abuses in the Church this fanatical opinion concerning the opus
operatum, without a good disposition on the part of the one using the
Sacraments, has produced. Hence the infinite profanation of the Masses; but
of this we shall speak below. Neither can a single letter be produced from
the old writers which in this matter favors the scholastics. Yea, Augustine
says the contrary, that the faith of the Sacrament, and not the Sacrament,
justifies. And the declaration of Paul is well known, Rom. 10, 10: With the
heart man believeth unto righteousness."

We understand the above to mean that the incarnate Christ is not in the
Means of Grace but that Christ comes to us by faith alone through the Means
of Grace. The Means of Grace are not the grace! They are not Christ. Only
Christ is Christ. He indwells the believer only by faith, not before faith,
and not during conversion (as Osiander falsely taught) but only after faith.
He has produced faith in our hearts by the Word alone. The false doctrine
of Christ's so-called incarnational presence in the Means of Grace is pure
Romanism.

Christ is not incarnate in the Sacraments or the Bible. The Means of Grace
are only means. They are not Christ. Therefore, if I kick a Bible, I did
not kick or hit Christ. If I spit in a Baptismal Font I did not spit on the
Holy Spirit. If I step on a consecrated Communion wafer I did not step on
Christ. Yes, such behavior is voluntary sin with by evil intent, but in
reality it is not possible to attach the incarnate Christ in the Means of
Grace.

Walther writes: "However, at no time has the Lutheran Church asserted that
men are saved by the mere external use of the Sacraments." (Law and Gospel
page 355)

"According to Scripture, all means of grace have the same purpose and the
same effect, namely, the conferring of the forgiveness of sins and the
resultant engendering and strengthening of faith." (Pieper Vol. III page
108)

Also, the harangue from the LCMS that the Office of the Ministry and
missions are incarnational is pure Sacerdotalism. Christ is not incarnate
in the pastor any more than He indwells every Christian by faith alone. And
yet, the LCMS keeps writing about incarnational ministries and pastors.

The following is a brief list of so-called incarnational ministries and
incarnational Means of Grace in LCMS publications and literature:

"I was proud of my young team and the incarnational ministry they provided,
bringing a symmetry of peace and hope to an environment that was
asymmetrical, hostile, and intense." (1)

"The aphorism that 'personnel is policy' acknowledges the incarnational
implications of our offices and organizations." (2)

"Lester points up the 'incarnational' aspect or the 'representative' aspect
of the pastoral office and indicates the remarkable opportunity that the
pastor has:"(3)

"Incarnational missions, the challenge of missionaries to acculturate
themselves and their message to the real world of recipient foreign
cultures, has been a great theme of missiological writing for several
decades." (4)

"The value of incarnational ministry is obvious." (5)

"Not surprisingly, gender remains a significant factor with this
interpretation. The paradigms for the Office of the Ministry employed here
appear to be gender linked. The Heavenly Father is revealed in masculine
terms--earthly fathers are masculine--historically, the congregation's Rev.
Father is also masculine. Likewise, the Heavenly Husband is
masculine--earthly husbands are masculine--historically, the congregation's
Rev. Husband is also masculine. God's Biblical revelation of Himself as
Father as well as the incarnational revelation of His Son are thus reflected
in both the family and the church."(6)

"As the battalion's chaplain, Prince's responsibilities were more spiritual
than martial. 'My job is 'incarnational' ministry: to be with the troops, do
what they do, sleep where they sleep,' he said." (7)

"The pastor's responsibility to be the one who admits to the table is seen
most clearly when it is seen Whose table it is and Who is the Host. As
stated previously, the pastor is the instrument called by Christ to shepherd
His flock. When the Verba are spoken, it is not the pastor who speaks, but
the One to whom the words belong--the Lord Jesus. When the pastor stands and
speaks, he is the mouthpiece of the Lord's words. This has been described by
some as an "incarnational presence of Christ."(18) It is the Lord's Supper.
He is the Host as He is the gift given. His instrument, the pastor, receives
to the table according to the mandate and institution of the Lord." (8)

"The cross of Christ heralds the incarnational, expansionary movement of the
reign and rule of Jesus Christ in the hearts and lives of people also
today." . . .

"The Book of Acts provides a descriptive narrative and illustration of the
advance and incarnational movement of the Kingdom of God through church
planting in the ministries of Paul and the apostles." (9)

"Incarnational applies to a Lutheran's understanding of the Word and
sacraments." (10)

"We know the Scriptures as historical documents before we confront them as
theological ones. They are incarnational because Jesus is fully present in
them to invite their hearers to himself. Thus they are sacramental in
purpose (Matt 11:28)." (11)

"To act sacramentally means to act through the creation ("means") or
creatures. With this definition, the incarnation can be understood
sacramentally and our sacraments have incarnational dimensions." (12)

"While Casel's theory cannot be reconciled with Lutheranism's incarnational
understanding of the sacraments, Sasse points out that Casel's
mysteriumtheologie can be accommodated in the Roman Church because, for one
thing, it has a different relationship with heathen religion than we do."
(13)

"The Reformed doctrine of inerrancy must be viewed in connection with their
doctrine that the law is God's last word to Christians, and so the Bible is
appreciated for its correctness in providing rules for Christian living and
not because the Spirit is actually tied to the words. See Rohls,
Confessions, 177-181. In Lutheran theology the Scriptures are understood
incarnationally and sacramentally. In them, Jesus Himself is present and
calling believers to baptism and to the Lord's Supper." (14)

"It is the thesis of this essay that it is the incarnational and sacramental
presence that is at the center of Paul's theology, embracing at least seven
Gospel themes -- thus the title of this paper: . . ."

"The incarnational and sacramental presence of Jesus Christ is at the center
of Paul's theology - and for many today, even Lutherans, this presence is
elusive. For we sometimes forget -- it is about a person - the very Son of
God - whose bodily presence even now justifies." (15)

"This is certainly one of the more satisfactory hymns in the collection, but
it suffers by standing next to so many other hymns that miss or detract from
the incarnational, salvific realities presented to the Christian in the
Sacrament." (16)

"Since the Gospel is God's last word, Christology is the ultimate and purest
revelation of who God is. Not only can divine revelation be characterized as
incarnational (Jesus of Nazareth), but also as sacramental, since in baptism
He makes Himself known to believers (revelation) and incorporates sinners
into Himself (redemption)." (17)

"This interactivity of Biblical content and the gathered establishes
colonies, specific and local incarnational representations of the kingdom of
Christ.35" (18)

"This is the incarnational and sacramental message of all of Scripture."
(19)

The above descriptions of incarnational ministry and incarnational Means of
Grace are the rankest form of Osiandrianism and Sacerdotalism. They falsely
claim that the Two Natures of Christ are externally and irresistibly present
with saving grace outside of the believer in the pastor and in the Means of
Grace.

--------------------------------------------------------

FOOT NOTES:

(1) LCMS Armed Forces: "The Valley of the Shadow" by Chaplain (LTC) Eric J.
Erkkinen MNC-I, Baghdad, Iraq
https://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/World Mission/2006-04-MAF-Jul-S
ep.pdf

(2) "A Minority Opinion on 'The Service of Women in Congregational Offices
of Executive Director/President or Assistant Director/Vice-President'" Paul
Nus - April 30, 2004
https://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/CTCR/Minority Opinion - Ser
vice%20of%20Women%20043004.doc

(3) "PASIORAL CARE WITH CHILDREN IN CRISIS" By Andrew D. Lester.
http://www.ctsfw.edu/library/files/pb/1452, CONCORDIA THEOLOGICAL QUARTERLY,
Volume 49, Number 4, October 1985

(4) "Recent Research on Jesus: Assessing the Contribution of Larry Hurtado"
Page 48 January 2005 Robert D.
newtonhttp://www.ctsfw.edu/library/files/pb/1514

(5) "DELTO Pastor-Mentor Manual For Learning Team Development"
http://www.ctsfw.edu/academics/_docs/delto_manual.doc

(6) "Clergy Marital Status or Paradigm of the Public Ministry?" Essay to
"Open/Academic Topic at the Third Annual Theological Symposium" at Concordia
Seminary (St. Louis) in May 1993. douglas d. fusselman
http://semperref.homestead.com/files/husband.html

(7) "The Jackson County Banner: Prince preaches to Marines in war-torn Iraq"
Chaplain Matthew Prince Enrolled Concordia Seminary in St. Louis in 1998
http://www.thebanner.com/articles/2007/12/20/news/news04.txt - 24k -%2
0Cached%20-%20Similar%20pages

(8) "Pastoral Care and the Lord's Supper" By Rev. Russell A. Nebhut
http://www.stjohn-lcms.com/Pastcare.htm Footnote 18. David P. Scaer. "The
Validity of the Churchly Acts of Ordained Women" Concordia Theological
Quarterly. Vol. 53, No. 1&2, 1989. p. 10.

(9) "THE CASE FOR CHURCH PLANTING"
https://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/World Mission/ACC_Booklet.pdf

(10) "Sacraments as the Locus on the Spirit" Dr. David Scare
http://www.ctsfw.edu/events/symposia/papers/sym2006scaerd.pdf

(11) "The Meaning of Matthew's Confession of Jesus in the 1st and 21st
Centuries" Dr. David Scare
http://www.ctsfw.edu/events/symposia/papers/sym2005scaerd1.pdf

(12) "Sacraments as an Affirmation of Creation" CONCORDIA THEOLOGICAL
QUARTERLY Volume 57: Num 4 OCTOBER 1993 David P. Scaer
http://www.ctsfw.edu/library/files/pb/1116

(13)"HERMANN SASSE AND THE LITURGICAL MOVEMENT" by John T. Pless
http://www.ctsfw.edu/academics/faculty/pless/Sasse.htm

(14) "Reformed Exegesis and Lutheran Sacraments: Worlds in Conflict" David
P. Scaer 1. Theology and Biblical Studies Concordia Theological Quarterly 64
(January 2000) no. 1:3-20 C2000 Concordia Theological Seminary
http://www.ctsfw.edu/ctq/text/jan00scaer.pdf

(15) "'The Elusive Presence': Death of Christ, Gospel, Liberation,
Apocalyptic, Justification, Incorporation into Christ, and New Creation in
Paul's Homily to the Galatians" by Arthur Just 21st Annual Symposium on
Exegetical Theology Concordia Theological Seminary 17 January 2006
http://www.ctsfw.edu/events/symposia/papers/sym2006just.pdf

(16) "Sacramental Hymnody in American Lutheran Hymnals During the Nineteenth
Century" Peter C. Cage CONCORDIA THEOLOGICAL QUARTERLY Volume 66:3 July 2002
http://www.ctsfw.edu/library/files/pb/964

(17) "Baptism as Church Foundation" David P. Scaer. CONCORDIA THEOLOGICAL
QUARTERLY Volume 67:2 April 2003 page 109
http://www.ctsfw.edu/library/files/pb/939

(18) "A Synthesis of Narratives:Religious Undergraduate Students Making
Meaning in the Context of a Secular University" by Henry A. Corcoran
CONCORDIA JOURNAL/OCTOBER 2007 369
http://www.csl.edu/Img/Publications/CJ-Oct.07.pdf

(19) David Peter, CONCORDIA JOURNAL/APRIL 2001 Page 133.


__._,_.___

 

[DaRev]

Ya know, I find it intriguing that I've never heard the term "incarnational theology" before reading this thread. Not in seminary, not in seminars or classes, not in any publications that I've read. Apparently, it isn't in as wide spread usage as these articles would imply.

 

[RadMan]

CONCOMITANCE

The doctrine that explains why the whole Christ is present under each Eucharistic species. Christ is indivisible, so that his body cannot be separated from his blood, his human soul, his divine nature, and his divine personality. Consequently he is wholly present in the Eucharist. But only the substance of his body is the specific effect of the first consecration at Mass; his blood, soul, divinity, and personality become present by concomitance, i.e., by the inseparable connection that they have with his body. The Church also says the "substance" of Christ's body because its accidents, though imperceptible, are also present by same concomitance, not precisely because of the words of consecration.
In the second consecration, the conversion terminates specifically in the presence of the substance of Christ's blood. But again by concomitance his body and entire self become present as well. (Etym. Latin concomitantia, accompaniment.)

 

[LutheranHawkeye]

Wow Rad. Are you sure your not a professional Theologian?

 

[MagnusEmboden]

Well, we all know what the Incarnation is, right?

It's a pretty old term. It wasn't made up in this last generation. The wedding of it in an adjectival form ("Incarnational") is pretty reasonable at least denotatively.

And if we're going to harp on the pouring of new or extended meanings into terms let's start with the happy-clappy appropriation of "Evangelical" why don't we?

 

[RadMan]

Evangelical Lutheran or Lutheran Evangelical? Tell us more ME.

 

[MagnusEmboden]

I am just saying that originally the word "Evangelical" was synonymous with "Lutheran".

It has since come to mean a whole lot more than that and quite a lot that has nothing to do with what the Reformation was about.

 

[DaRev]

I am just saying that originally the word "Evangelical" was synonymous with "Lutheran".

It has since come to mean a whole lot more than that and quite a lot that has nothing to do with what the Reformation was about.

This is true. And anymore the word "evangelical" needs to be qualified with the word "catholic" in order to refer to Lutheranism.

 

[RadMan]

Get an eyefull of the planned takeover of the LCMS by our president and cronies.

"I've taken the time to read through his actions, writings, statements and the suggestions of his Blue Ribbon Task Force and am convinced, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that he is following a well scripted, well planned Change Initiative, the goal of which is to insure that the LCMS becomes and will forever remain a purpose-driven / church-growth denomination."


As someone has mentioned "[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]the liberials do not intend to leave, they want to keep their hands on the power and the retirement funds and will force the conservatives out."
[/FONT]
http://www.extremetheology.com/2008/04/changing-the-lc.html

 

[RadMan]

"They [laymen] are all deemed to be incompetent by Resolution 8-01A! You should know that not one District President has voiced disapproval to date. The implication of this appears to be that all of our current District Presidents think that all of our laymen are incompetent judges in matters involving ecclesiastical courts."
The arguments used to justify the major changes in Resolution 8-01A are the same arguments that could be used to disenfranchise all laymen from all congregational and synodical offices. That would be sacerdotalism - domination by the clergy. It is primary characteristic of episcope'."
Dr. John Wohlrabe, Third Vice-President, Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, Servant Captains, pp. 97,98.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

The pastors of the Rock Island Circuit of the Central Illinois District, having discussed their concerns regarding some of the actions of the 62nd Convention of the Lutheran Church – Missouri Synod, have unanimously adopted the following resolutions on March 14, 2005 as the initial step in the dissent process.

2. TO REAFFIRM OUR COMMITMENT TO A DISPUTE RESOLUTION PROCESS WHICH UPHOLDS SCRIPTURE AS THE SUPREME AUTHORITY AND PRESERVES THE RIGHT OF ALL CHRISTIANS TO JUDGE DOCTRINE
WHEREAS, previously, disputes were resolved in a God pleasing manner, according to God’s Word; and
WHEREAS, with the passage of Resolution 8-01A by the 2004 Convention, widespread changes in the “Ecclesiastical Supervision and Dispute Resolution,” process virtually removes the right of a congregation and pastor to initiate formal disciplinary proceedings, so that this right now rests solely at the discretion of the district presidents and the synodical president; and
WHEREAS, the rulings of the Commission on Constitutional Matters which state that the prior approval of an ecclesiastical supervisor precludes the possibility of discipline for wrong doing, offering a virtual “Nuremberg Defense,” were upheld by the synodical convention; thereby setting aside the Word of God as the “only rule and norm of faith and life” in the LCMS; therefore be it
RESOLVED, that we affirm the need for a mechanism for holding accountable all who hold authority, since as Christians, we are at the same time saint and sinner [Rom. 7:15-24], that it is the duty of every Christian to judge doctrine, according to the Word of God [Acts 17:11; Rom. 16:17; I John 4:1], and that ecclesiastical approval may not be used as a defense for setting aside the Word of God; and be it further
RESOLVED, that we reject as unscriptural, the idea that only a district or synodical president may determine whether charges of false teaching against a member of synod may be leveled, that prior approval of an ecclesiastical supervisor precludes the possibility of discipline for wrongdoing, and that a convention (which the synodical president organizes and chairs) or three-fourths of the district presidents ratified by congregations of synod may remove or discipline a synodical president; and be it finally
RESOLVED, that we reject the dispute resolution process adopted by the 2004 convention in resolution 8-01A, and the decision of the Commission on Constitutional Matters which precludes the discipline of anyone for wrongdoing because they have acted under the approval of their ecclesiastical supervisor.

http://faithfulconfessors.com/CID-IDEStatement.pdf

---------------------------------------------------------------


Delegates to the Wyoming District convention, May 4-6, 2006


One of those calls for next year's Synod convention to rescind 2004 LCMS convention Resolution 8-01A and "its resulting bylaws" that deal with ecclesiastical supervision and dispute resolution between members of the Synod.
The Wyoming action also calls for "a new adjudication process, based on Scriptures and our Lutheran Confessions, to be designed to replace Resolution 8-01A and be presented to Synod in a timely fashion for approval at its 2010 convention."
After noting five "concerns" about the 2004 Synod resolution, the Wyoming action also resolved "that this new adjudication process take into account not only the wisdom and necessity of Biblical conflict resolution, but also the wisdom and necessity of true ecclesiastical adjudication of public error as it was practiced in the first fourteen decades of our Synod."

https://www.lcms.org/pages/rpage.asp?NavID=9962

--------------------------------------------------

 

[DaSeminarian]

Walther faced a situation after Stephan was deposed. He even was let go by his congregation. During this time he re-read Luther's writing and wrote the Altenburg debates which he went against Marbach and established that while the congregation does extend the call to the minister, they have no authority to terminate a pastor's call unless they have committed some immoral sin. The Dispute Resolution situation may not be the ideal way to deal with the situations, but it does put it in the hands of the "Pastor's" peers to judge his situation.

 

[BigNorsk]

So ministers once called are free to preach error? The church cannot remove someone who teaches error unless he drifts into immoral sin?

It seems to me the church has always had the responsibility to remove the teacher of error, how can Walther decide they do not?

Or does he equivocate doctrinal error with immoral sin?

Marv

 

[filosofer]

No, persistent heretical teaching is grounds for removal in the LCMS and always has been (as well as other Lutheran church bodies).

 

[RadMan]

So ministers once called are free to preach error? The church cannot remove someone who teaches error unless he drifts into immoral sin?

It seems to me the church has always had the responsibility to remove the teacher of error, how can Walther decide they do not?

Or does he equivocate doctrinal error with immoral sin?

Marv

I'm not sure where you got that from but Walther says that the "church" (fellowship of believers, congregation) judges doctrine and not a "synod" that is political. Synods are not head of any of the churches but only there for a reference point. The dispute resolution puts it into the hands of synod and not the congregations.

 

[RadMan]

May 31, 2008

"Concordia Seminary St. Louis Says Walther's Teaching 'No Longer Adequate'"

Concordia Seminary, St. Louis MO is sponsoring a Symposium Sept. 23-24 whose
major premise is to explain why its founder's teaching on congregations and
the pastoral office are no longer adequate for twenty-first century America.

"Church and Ministry," was written in 1851 by C. F. W. Walther, Concordia
Seminary's founder and its first president and the first President of the
Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. It was adopted as the official teaching of
the LCMS in 1851.

Now the Seminary founded by Walther is sponsoring a Symposium titled,
"Lutheran Ecclesiology for the Third Millennium: Beyond Walther."

Promotion for the Symposium by the Seminary reads as follows: "The American
Lutheran understanding of what it means to be the church has been shaped by
theological heritage and an ambiguous relationship with American culture,
according to symposium planners. As a result, the insights of C.F.W.
Walther and Wilhelm Loehe, 19th century figures of American Lutheran
ecclesiology, 'do not adequately answer the questions posed to Lutheran
ecclesiology today.'"

This is not the first time the St. Louis Seminary has separated itself from
the teachings of the Bible, the Lutheran Confessions, and the writings of
Martin Luther. Everything Walther writes about the congregation and the
pastoral office is supported by Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions.
However, The Seminary is boldly announcing these are no longer adequate but
they have yet to explain why.

On July 18, 2001 the LCMS Convention voted to affirm Resolution 7-17A, "To
Affirm Synod's Official Position on Church and Ministry" 73.1% to 26.9%.
The Convention voted by nearly 3 to 1 to keep the entire edition of C. F. W.
Walther's foundational work, "The Voice of Our Church on the Question of
Church and Ministry," as the official position of the Synod.

The St. Louis Seminary is eager to solicit the layman's funds but has little
concern for how the Synod votes in Convention. The real power is in rulings
by the Commission on Constitutional Maters. Convention resolutions are
virtually meaningless and are ignored by nearly all District Presidents.

The following is the resolution adopted by the Synod is 2001 and then the
release published on the LCMS website announcing the Symposium:

----------------------------------------------------------
"To Affirm Synod's Official Position on Church and Ministry"
(2001 LCMS Convention Resolution 7-17A Adopted yes: 791 no: 291)

Whereas, The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS) has experienced during
its history confusion with regard to the doctrine of church and ministry:
and

Whereas, Dr. D. F. W. Walther addressed this confusion in 1851 through his
"Theses on Church and Ministry," which were subsequently declared to be the
position of the LCMS in 1851; and

Whereas, The book "The Voice of our Church on the Question of Church and
Ministry," by Dr. C. F. W. Walther, was published in 1852. The LCMS in
convention declared this book to be the pure doctrine (reine Lehre) of
church and ministry; therefore be it

Resolved, That the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod meeting in convention in
the year of our Lord 2001 affirm the above referenced writings of C. F. W.
Walther as the definitive statement under Holy Scripture and the Lutheran
Confessions of the Synod's understanding on the subject of church and
ministry; and be if further

Resolved, That the LCMS in convention reaffirm the decision of the 1852
convention in recognizing C. F. W. Walther's book, "The Voice of Our Church
on the Question of Church and Ministry," as the official position of the
LCMS; and be it further

Resolved, That all pastors, professors, teachers of the church, and
congregations honor and uphold the resolutions of the Synod as regards the
official position of our Synod on church and ministry and teach in
accordance with them;

(The above resolution was based on an overture sent to the Convention by
Redeemer Lutheran Church in St. Clair Shores MI.)

---------------------------------------------

http://www.lcms.org/pages/rpage.asp?NavID=13492

From LCMS Reporter online

St. Louis sem to host theological symposium "Lutheran Ecclesiology for the
Third Millennium: Beyond Walther" is the title of the 19th Annual
Theological Symposium, to be held Sept. 23-24 at Concordia Seminary, St.
Louis.

The American Lutheran understanding of what it means to be the church has
been shaped by theological heritage and an ambiguous relationship with
American culture, according to symposium planners. As a result, the
insights of C.F.W. Walther and Wilhelm Loehe, 19th century figures of
American Lutheran ecclesiology, "do not adequately answer the questions
posed to Lutheran ecclesiology today."

This year's symposium continues the theme of ecclesiology begun at the 2007
event when presenters from outside the Missouri Synod helped participants
understand the culture and wider church in which LCMS pastors serve. This
year's event deals with the same topic, but within a specific Lutheran
context.

The event is open to parish pastors, district and Synod officials, seminary
and Concordia University students and faculty, and interested lay people.
One CEU is available to each attendee.

Main presenters will be:

Dr. William Schumacher, dean of theological research and publications and
mission associate professor of historical theology, who will discuss
"Understanding our Roots -- Continuity and Discontinuity."

Dr. Robert Kolb, mission professor of systematic theology, who will address
"The Church and her Mission: Toward a Missional Ecclesiology."

Dr. Joel Okamoto, associate professor of systematic theology, who will
explore the identity of a church and its relationships to other churches in
his paper titled "The Church and the Churches."

The symposium will conclude with a panel of presenters discussing "The Shape
of the Church: What Does All This Mean for the Organizational Shape of the
Church on the Local and Transparochial Level?" as they respond to questions
submitted by the audience.

Attendees also are invited to stay after the symposium to take part in
Witness Workshop 2008, Sept. 24-25 at the seminary. In four sessions, the
workshop will explore "Planting Churches: Paul's Plan." Dr. A.R. Victor
Raj, mission professor of exegetical theology and assistant director of the
Institute for Mission Studies, will present the apostle Paul as missionary,
church planter, and mission theologian, based on Acts and the Letters of
Paul.

Registration for the symposium is $110 and does not include meals or
lodging. There is an extra registration fee for the Witness Workshop.
For more information about either event, contact the seminary's Office of
Continuing Education and Parish Services at (314) 505-7486 or ce@csl.edu.

Or, visit the seminary's Web site at www.csl.edu.
reclaimnews-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

 

[BigNorsk]

I'm not sure where you got that from but Walther says that the "church" (fellowship of believers, congregation) judges doctrine and not a "synod" that is political. Synods are not head of any of the churches but only there for a reference point. The dispute resolution puts it into the hands of synod and not the congregations.

Rad,

I was referring to a congregation as the church.

Marv

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Or does he equivocate doctrinal error with immoral sin?

Marv

In LCC these are the two grounds for dismissal. I know of a congregation where there was a liberal core that tried to force a confessional Pastor out. District Pres. and Circuit Counselor were involved; but in the respect to what the congregation could and could not do. And later in a reconciliation process (which could have been handled better in retrospect). The confessional Pastor is still there, but the congregation is about 1/2 the size.

 

[synger]

Thank you for keeping us updated on these issues. I don't follow it all, and sometimes find the articles difficult reading because I don't know a lot of LCMS history, but I do try to skim what you post and look at the links. I'm not sure how much of this is doom-saying hype and how much is needed warning... but it is very interesting to read and it helps me understand much better some of the back-and-forth polity discussions I hear at church and here.

 

[DaRev]

May 31, 2008

"Concordia Seminary St. Louis Says Walther's Teaching 'No Longer Adequate'"

Concordia Seminary, St. Louis MO is sponsoring a Symposium Sept. 23-24 whose
major premise is to explain why its founder's teaching on congregations and
the pastoral office are no longer adequate for twenty-first century America.

"Church and Ministry," was written in 1851 by C. F. W. Walther, Concordia
Seminary's founder and its first president and the first President of the
Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. It was adopted as the official teaching of
the LCMS in 1851.

Now the Seminary founded by Walther is sponsoring a Symposium titled,
"Lutheran Ecclesiology for the Third Millennium: Beyond Walther."

Promotion for the Symposium by the Seminary reads as follows: "The American
Lutheran understanding of what it means to be the church has been shaped by
theological heritage and an ambiguous relationship with American culture,
according to symposium planners. As a result, the insights of C.F.W.
Walther and Wilhelm Loehe, 19th century figures of American Lutheran
ecclesiology, 'do not adequately answer the questions posed to Lutheran
ecclesiology today.'"

This is not the first time the St. Louis Seminary has separated itself from
the teachings of the Bible, the Lutheran Confessions, and the writings of
Martin Luther. Everything Walther writes about the congregation and the
pastoral office is supported by Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions.
However, The Seminary is boldly announcing these are no longer adequate but
they have yet to explain why.

On July 18, 2001 the LCMS Convention voted to affirm Resolution 7-17A, "To
Affirm Synod's Official Position on Church and Ministry" 73.1% to 26.9%.
The Convention voted by nearly 3 to 1 to keep the entire edition of C. F. W.
Walther's foundational work, "The Voice of Our Church on the Question of
Church and Ministry," as the official position of the Synod.

The St. Louis Seminary is eager to solicit the layman's funds but has little
concern for how the Synod votes in Convention. The real power is in rulings
by the Commission on Constitutional Maters. Convention resolutions are
virtually meaningless and are ignored by nearly all District Presidents.

The following is the resolution adopted by the Synod is 2001 and then the
release published on the LCMS website announcing the Symposium:

----------------------------------------------------------
"To Affirm Synod's Official Position on Church and Ministry"
(2001 LCMS Convention Resolution 7-17A Adopted yes: 791 no: 291)

Whereas, The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS) has experienced during
its history confusion with regard to the doctrine of church and ministry:
and

Whereas, Dr. D. F. W. Walther addressed this confusion in 1851 through his
"Theses on Church and Ministry," which were subsequently declared to be the
position of the LCMS in 1851; and

Whereas, The book "The Voice of our Church on the Question of Church and
Ministry," by Dr. C. F. W. Walther, was published in 1852. The LCMS in
convention declared this book to be the pure doctrine (reine Lehre) of
church and ministry; therefore be it

Resolved, That the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod meeting in convention in
the year of our Lord 2001 affirm the above referenced writings of C. F. W.
Walther as the definitive statement under Holy Scripture and the Lutheran
Confessions of the Synod's understanding on the subject of church and
ministry; and be if further

Resolved, That the LCMS in convention reaffirm the decision of the 1852
convention in recognizing C. F. W. Walther's book, "The Voice of Our Church
on the Question of Church and Ministry," as the official position of the
LCMS; and be it further

Resolved, That all pastors, professors, teachers of the church, and
congregations honor and uphold the resolutions of the Synod as regards the
official position of our Synod on church and ministry and teach in
accordance with them;

(The above resolution was based on an overture sent to the Convention by
Redeemer Lutheran Church in St. Clair Shores MI.)

---------------------------------------------

http://www.lcms.org/pages/rpage.asp?NavID=13492

From LCMS Reporter online

St. Louis sem to host theological symposium "Lutheran Ecclesiology for the
Third Millennium: Beyond Walther" is the title of the 19th Annual
Theological Symposium, to be held Sept. 23-24 at Concordia Seminary, St.
Louis.

The American Lutheran understanding of what it means to be the church has
been shaped by theological heritage and an ambiguous relationship with
American culture, according to symposium planners. As a result, the
insights of C.F.W. Walther and Wilhelm Loehe, 19th century figures of
American Lutheran ecclesiology, "do not adequately answer the questions
posed to Lutheran ecclesiology today."

This year's symposium continues the theme of ecclesiology begun at the 2007
event when presenters from outside the Missouri Synod helped participants
understand the culture and wider church in which LCMS pastors serve. This
year's event deals with the same topic, but within a specific Lutheran
context.

The event is open to parish pastors, district and Synod officials, seminary
and Concordia University students and faculty, and interested lay people.
One CEU is available to each attendee.

Main presenters will be:

Dr. William Schumacher, dean of theological research and publications and
mission associate professor of historical theology, who will discuss
"Understanding our Roots -- Continuity and Discontinuity."

Dr. Robert Kolb, mission professor of systematic theology, who will address
"The Church and her Mission: Toward a Missional Ecclesiology."

Dr. Joel Okamoto, associate professor of systematic theology, who will
explore the identity of a church and its relationships to other churches in
his paper titled "The Church and the Churches."

The symposium will conclude with a panel of presenters discussing "The Shape
of the Church: What Does All This Mean for the Organizational Shape of the
Church on the Local and Transparochial Level?" as they respond to questions
submitted by the audience.

Attendees also are invited to stay after the symposium to take part in
Witness Workshop 2008, Sept. 24-25 at the seminary. In four sessions, the
workshop will explore "Planting Churches: Paul's Plan." Dr. A.R. Victor
Raj, mission professor of exegetical theology and assistant director of the
Institute for Mission Studies, will present the apostle Paul as missionary,
church planter, and mission theologian, based on Acts and the Letters of
Paul.

Registration for the symposium is $110 and does not include meals or
lodging. There is an extra registration fee for the Witness Workshop.
For more information about either event, contact the seminary's Office of
Continuing Education and Parish Services at (314) 505-7486 or ce@csl.edu.

Or, visit the seminary's Web site at www.csl.edu.
reclaimnews-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

The Reclaim folk are making a huge assumption here by claiming that the discussions being planned at the symposium separates the seminary "from the teachings of the Bible, the Lutheran Confessions, and the writings of Martin Luther." I see nothing in the Reporter article or any of the other promotions I've seen that they are talking about abolishing Walther's writings and their place in the synod. From what I've read about it, it's merely a discussion on how Walther's writings translate into the 21st century Church. I think it would be much wiser for the Reclaim folks to withhold their opinions until they've actually attended the symposium and heard what was discussed. While they might be correct in their opinions, they aren't fortune tellers.