Good 'OL LCMS

[RadMan]

Not to get in the middle of this, but the math doesn't add up. 67% of 522 = 350 pastors. Yet there more than 6,000 pastors, which means the 350 is less than 6% of total pastors. So how does that constitute 18% of LCMS pastors?

Ask Dr Martin Noland. These are his statistics. It's a discrepancy only he can explain.

Does that void everything else I've posted on the matter? Is this another minor way to circumvent the info compiled?

 

[DaRev]

Rev and Sem.....besides Cascione and Otten, what other things that Rad says, do you believe are incorrect concerning the LCMS?

When I belonged to the LCMS, some 15yrs ago or so, I saw many things that were heading towards very liberal desires of some, to change things into what Rad describes above. I found this disturbing back then and I had never even heard of Cascione or Otten.

Can we stop beating Rad up here, and really listen to what the problems are, and if there are any remedies in the works? You guys should actually know what these remedies are since you are so close to Synod activities. Is a split the only recourse? Or can things be turned around?

Thanks guys,
seajoy

The problems in the LCMS need to be addressed by those of us in the LCMS. Those, like Otten and Cascione who are not part of the LCMS, do much more harm than good. They stir up dissension and do nothing to help with the problems. If more people ignored them and instead paid attention to the problems and the things that we in the synod are trying to do to address them, perhaps some of these things would be remedied in a timely fashion. There is a major rift in the Confessional populace in the synod, fueled in a major way by such outsiders. We would love to have someone with Rad's zeal help with things from within instead of siding with those who are outside.

 

[RadMan]

The problems in the LCMS need to be addressed by those of us in the LCMS. Those, like Otten and Cascione who are not part of the LCMS, do much more harm than good. They stir up dissension and do nothing to help with the problems. If more people ignored them and instead paid attention to the problems and the things that we in the synod are trying to do to address them, perhaps some of these things would be remedied in a timely fashion. There is a major rift in the Confessional populace in the synod, fueled in a major way by such outsiders. We would love to have someone with Rad's zeal help with things from within instead of siding with those who are outside.

As I said. You can't get past this Otten, Cascione thing. Everything I just posted was from "within" the LCMS. I only listed info from outside of LCMS because there is NOTHING (or rarely anything} available from within except "blog" posts which are just opinions. No facts have come from anything anyone else has posted on here except what I have posted. Feel free to dispute my post with facts instead of opinion.

 

[DaRev]

I asked you before for the author of the article you posted before, but you ignored me.

 

[filosofer]

Ask Dr Martin Noland. These are his statistics. It's a discrepancy only he can explain.

Does that void everything else I've posted on the matter? Is this another minor way to circumvent the info compiled?

Please, I was only commenting on the statistics. I made no comment on what was written, and didn't want to comment on it. Were I interested I would join in. But don't drag me in to this discussion.

 

[DaSeminarian]

As I said. You can't get past this Otten, Cascione thing. Everything I just posted was from "within" the LCMS. I only listed info from outside of LCMS because there is NOTHING (or rarely anything} available from within except "blog" posts which are just opinions. No facts have come from anything anyone else has posted on here except what I have posted. Feel free to dispute my post with facts instead of opinion.

Were there anything I could truly do I would, but there is not anything you or I can do. Lawsuits didn't work and they still elected Kieschnick in the last Convention.

This issue needs to sleep for a while. Complain all you want but it will fall on deaf ears and blind eyes. Besides I have more than enough to do studying to be a Pastor who can at least preach the truth to the congregation which will call me two years from now.

 

[DaSeminarian]

"In 1999, three dissenting groups came together to form Jesus First/DayStar, which would continue to stress outreach to the exclusion of doctrinal integrity within the Synod. This attempt at a hostile takover of the Missouri Synod was vigorously opposed by a group of more conservative, or confessional, pastors and theologians, led by Dr. Robert Preus, President of Concordia Theological Seminary, Ft. Wayne. The confessional Lutherans, while not neglecting outreach--the Ft. Wayne seminary has been a beehive of mission activity, particularly in the foreign field--has sought to restore a proper emphasis on doctrinal integrity to the LCMS."

Interesting since Robert Preus died in 1995.

"Following his defeat at the 1992 synodical convention, Dr. Bohlmann sent what many saw as a bitter letter to all Missouri Synod pastors, condemning church politicks. In that letter, he also tried to explain that the reason he sought to remove Dr. Robert Preus was doctrinal. Referring to a “Highly organized network” which had opposed his presidency, Bohlmann said:
A few comments about its theological focus might be helpful…. In fact, many in the political network hold positions to the right of the Synod’s in such key areas as women in the church, inter-Christian relationships, the pastoral office, and the manner of exercising Christian discipline. They have labeled their own position as ‘confessional’ or ‘conservative’. 246
After that, Dr. Bohlmann became instrumental in both the “Lutherans Alive” and “Jesus First” political organizations"

Actually I like what Professor Weinrich called the dispute between Preus and Bohlman as a "pi**ing contest"

Bohlman used his office to trash Preus rather than work with him to lead our synod and seminaries. Preus defended himself and was thrown out.

We agree on Bohlman's role and compared to Kieschnick, Kieschnick is an Angel.

"Following the formation of the AELC in 1976, three dissenting movements have remained within the Synod, movements that are also dominant in American church life today: liberal, charismatic, and evangelical. These three dissenting movements have now joined forces to form one dissenting organization called Jesus First; its organizers and supporters intent on altering the doctrinal integrity of the Missouri Synod, under the banner of “outreach”."

"The development of the liberal movement in the Missouri Synod has been noted above with its emphasis on Gospel reductionism, the use of the historical critical method in Biblical studies, and ecumenism or church fellowship based on a standard that is less than that articulated in the Lutheran Confessions. Not all of its adherents left the Missouri Synod at the formation of the AELC.

The AELC joined the ELCA merger of 1988.

As for the rest of this article, I don't like the Jesus First group because they do stand for dissension. My 8th grade confirmation teacher was on their roster until his passing last January.

If Jesus First fell of the face of the planet I doubt I would notice though unless it were a Convention year.

 

[RadMan]

I asked you before for the author of the article you posted before, but you ignored me.

I didn't ignore you. You just have a way of ignoring the posts I make and then make comment s on superfluous "stuff" that actually has nothing to do with the content of the articles/posts, except saying it's "interesting".

http://www.consensuslutheran.org/dow.../Wohlrabe2.pdf

 

[RadMan]

Please, I was only commenting on the statistics. I made no comment on what was written, and didn't want to comment on it. Were I interested I would join in. But don't drag me in to this discussion.

You drug yourself in by making a comment. How very evasive of you.

 

[DaRev]

I didn't ignore you. You just have a way of ignoring the posts I make and then make comment s on superfluous "stuff" that actually has nothing to do with the content of the articles/posts, except saying it's "interesting".

http://www.consensuslutheran.org/dow.../Wohlrabe2.pdf

I may have wanted to discuss it with you had you answered me earlier. I would have liked to investigate further because I find the topic interesting (and disturbing as well). But I no longer have any interest in discussing it with you.

 

[DaSeminarian]

You drug yourself in by making a comment. How very evasive of you.

And you need to stop harassing us with this bull. He did nothing of the sort. His comment was on the statistics not on the issue itself. Get over it. No one wants to discuss this subject with you. If you want to talk to someone go to LQ where they seem to care.

 

[RadMan]

Harassing??? Who's been harassing whom. That's all I've heard from anyone here from LCMS. Avoid issuses, skirt the posts, slight of hand to change the topic and then belittling me because I at least try.

 

[filosofer]

Harassing??? Who's been harassing whom. That's all I've heard from anyone here from LCMS. Avoid issuses, skirt the posts, slight of hand to change the topic and then belittling me because I at least try.

Does it help that I am not LCMS?

Relax, John.

I made a comment about the statistics in the quote. I was a mathematics major 40 years ago in college. Some of it stays with me. I happen to enjoy numbers and number theory even today. It just popped out at me that the numbers in the quote didn't match. Simple.

If it helps, I won't comment on any thread... now that is evasive.

 

[RadMan]

Does it help that I am not LCMS?

Relax, John.

I made a comment about the statistics in the quote. I was a mathematics major 40 years ago in college. Some of it stays with me. I happen to enjoy numbers and number theory even today. It just popped out at me that the numbers in the quote didn't match. Simple.

If it helps, I won't comment on any thread... now that is evasive.

I apologize. I allowed some people to push my buttons today and you just happened to wander in at the wrong time.

 

[filosofer]

I apologize. I allowed some people to push my buttons today and you just happened to wander in at the wrong time.

Not a problem.

Been there... done that ... can't remember a thing.

 

[MagnusEmboden]

My comment was only about Jack but I agree with DaRev and DaSem...

No one is saying the LCMS is perfect and without flaws but, and if I could wax pious, it's Jesus's Church, not ours and He will take care of it.

He has entrusted it to us and we'll answer for it of course and we must do what we can to make what course-corrections are necessary to ensure that we continue in "Gottes Wort und Luthers Lehr..." but this ain't the Great Lutheran Freakout.

 

[RadMan]

I belonged to an LCMS church previously and the pastor's opinion about being proactive in the church was basically "pray about it". Prayer is powerful but God also gives us the great commission and to express inerrancies.

The pastor would not visit/talk to visitors, no mission endeavors, no bible classes except the one already going before he received the call, very rare visits to the nursing homes, no interaction with the congregation other than church functions, confirmation with no content or bible memory work, no instructions for elders in their responsibilities, etc. I could go on.

What I'm trying to say is that he used the excuse that prayer will solve all the problems and nothing else needed to be done. Now the church is almost to the point at losing the pastor because there aren't enough members to support him anymore. Did his idea work? Is it God's will? Does the Bible say that we are to look the other way when we see His church dissolve because of no proactive involvement by either the pastor or the laity ?

This is not a promotion for Ablaze either.

 

[porterross]

Your points are well taken, Rad, and I have my own complaints about the Missouri Synod, but all I can do at this point is make sure those who are like-minded and in some position to influence change are made aware of the problems. Our circuit counselor had no idea how little Confessionalism was being put forth by the DELTO candidate at my home church and had he not been the pastor at the church I now attend, I doubt he would have had any idea since complaints made to the elders by those (many) who have left for similar reasons are going no further and that was one of my issues. There are some truly valid concerns and problems at the local level here, yet no one outside of the executive committee has been made aware of it for fear of someone "outside" interfering. By even daring to bring up the question of adherence to proper procedures of governing and conducting Catechism, I was labeled an outsider in the church I grew up in.

The insecurities, ignorance and fear displayed were disappointing, but they are they basis of the problems here. It's a very sad and self-destructive cyclical environment that will indeed undo the LCMS church in this town and I do fault the synod's lax distance training programs and those they have allowed to serve in positions of oversight of this church for that, most certainly.

So, I do hear you and appreciate your frustration, but for me, there is simply no other doctrine that I can accept, so I will do what I need to do in order to do to ensure my child is properly catechized and that we can benefit from properly presented Word and Sacrament.

 

[BigNorsk]

How does someone in the DELTO program get that supervision and help that would be in that year as vicar in the normal seminary route? That real intimate suggestion, correction and help that lets the vicar learn how to preform in an evironment that understands he is still learning?

Just having a pastor or two that acts in a supervisory position without seeing the DELTO student in actual practice would seem to me to be a poor substitute. Maybe video? Maybe it's really not being done. I don't know.

Marv

 

[DaRev]

The insecurities, ignorance and fear displayed were disappointing, but they are they basis of the problems here. It's a very sad and self-destructive cyclical environment that will indeed undo the LCMS church in this town and I do fault the synod's lax distance training programs and those they have allowed to serve in positions of oversight of this church for that, most certainly.

It's more the responsibility of the Circuit and the District to "govern" the local congregations (if I can use that term). The district has dropped the ball in that situation big time.

How does someone in the DELTO program get that supervision and help that would be in that year as vicar in the normal seminary route? That real intimate suggestion, correction and help that lets the vicar learn how to preform in an evironment that understands he is still learning?

Just having a pastor or two that acts in a supervisory position without seeing the DELTO student in actual practice would seem to me to be a poor substitute. Maybe video? Maybe it's really not being done. I don't know.

Marv

That's a major part of the problem. There really isn't any supervision, and the supervisors apparently are not held accountable either. The new SMP program is supposed to address this, but that program hasn't even been fully implemented yet.