WildStrawberry
It's almost time....
- Mar 25, 2005
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Good 'OL LCMS
- Thread starter RadMan
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Well as you say it will all come out in the wash but then how do you explain this quote directly from the LCMS web site?
"The American Lutheran understanding of what it means to be the church has
been shaped by theological heritage and an ambiguous relationship with
American culture, according to symposium planners. As a result, the
insights of C.F.W. Walther and Wilhelm Loehe, 19th century figures of
American Lutheran ecclesiology, "do not adequately answer the questions
posed to Lutheran ecclesiology today.""
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How do the Reclaim folks know what "questions" that quote refers to? i think they're jumping to conclusions again. I prefer to wait until the wash is done.
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Why Do Some LCMS Pastors Join the Catholic and Orthodox Churches?
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reclaimnews-subscribe@yahoogroups.com You are invited to discuss this issue
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June 25, 2008
After reading about another LCMS Pastor, Rev. Daniel Woodring, joining the Catholic Church, we have to ask, “Why have there been more than 40 defections in the last 12 years.”
The answer lies in the poor instruction these clergy receive in the Doctrine of Justification and Church and Ministry.
It is widely accepted in the LCMS that Ordination is a sacrament even though the Lutheran Confessions say in the “Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope” that Ordination is nothing more than ratification of a call.
“70] And this also a most common CUSTOM of the Church testifies. For formerly the people ELECTED pastors and bishops. Then came a bishop, either of that church or a neighboring one, who confirmed the one elected by the laying on of hands; and ORDINATION WAS NOTHING ELSE THAN SUCH A RATIFICATION.”
The answer to the above question may lie in the fact that when a Pastor believes he has a sacrament beyond Baptism and the Lord’s Supper he has additional grace beyond the Doctrine of Justification by Faith Alone.
Once convinced of this false sacrament’s power he then believes in that power that he thinks God has placed in him, in other words he believes that he has become a living sacrament.
No only do the Lutheran Confessions not teaching any sacramental power in Ordination, they actually claim that the congregation and not the pastor is supreme.
“24] In addition to this, it is necessary to acknowledge that the keys belong not to the person of one particular man, but to the Church, as many most clear and firm arguments testify. For Christ, speaking concerning the keys adds, Matt. 18, 19: If two or three of you shall agree on earth, etc. Therefore he grants the keys principally and immediately to the Church, just as also for this reason the Church has principally the right of calling. [For just as the promise of the Gospel belongs certainly and immediately to the entire Church, so the keys belong immediately to the entire Church, because the keys are nothing else than the office whereby this promise is communicated to every one who desires it, just as it is actually manifest that the Church has the power to ordain ministers of the Church. And Christ speaks in these words: Whatsoever ye shall bind, etc., and indicates to whom He has given the keys, namely, to the Church: Where tw o or three are gathered together in My name. Likewise Christ gives SUPREME and final jurisdiction to the Church, when He says: Tell it unto the Church.]” (Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope, Concordia Triglotta.)
Luther was also clear about the congregation, and therefore the Voters’ Assembly, being above the pastor:
“When this polling or selecting process took place the entire congregation did the choosing, selecting, or calling of these men. THE APOSTLES LET THE CONGREGATION BE SUPREME. According to 1 Cor.3:23 all things belong to the congregation and it states in Cor.4:1, the pastors are stewards of the mysteries of God.” (Luther uses Acts 6:5 in defense of the Bohemians electing their own Bishops in Vol. 40 p. 38ff of Luther’s Works.)
Historically, the debate centered on the question of whether the church is an extension of the pastoral office or if the pastoral office is derived from the church?
This was the question that led to the famous Altenburg Debate. Marbach and Walther debated this question in front of ten other men in a log cabin. Walther argued from Scripture that the congregation was a true church without or before it had a pastor.
Both Luther and Walther use the example of the Bereans, “To see if these things are so,” “Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;” 1 Corinthians 3:22 and “Tell it to the church;” Matt, 18:19, to prove their point, among others.
Luther appears to be highly influenced by Augustine’s example of two men in a boat with no pastor. One baptizes the other and then he absolves the one who baptized him.
Luther reversed the Roman Catholic order of the three Estates from: Church, State, and Marriage, to Marriage, State, and Church. By placing the Church third Luther properly put all the clergy in the equivalent of the service industry.
Walther had to prove from Scripture that a group of Christians could vote themselves into existence as a church and then call a pastor. However, there are LCMS professors who reject Walther’s teaching on this point in “Church and Ministry.”
Yes, Christ gave some to be pastors and teachers. The key word is “gave” and the recipient is the congregation (all things are yours) who has to the right to fill the office by creating a pastor with its call. If the Office of the Ministry is vacant the congregation has a God given right to create a pastor with its call and fill the office.
Christians get to be Christians by being born again. Pastors are not born again by ordination; they are called by a congregation. It is the Office of the Christian, a priest of God, that can only be filled by God. The Church fills the Office of the Ministry.
God creates the Office of the Christian through the Means of Grace and Congregations create the pastor with their Call. In other words, pastors aren’t converted into being pastors and Christians aren't born pastors.
Luther’s study of the New Testament and his revulsion of the Roman Church led him to understand that the pastoral office is derived from the congregation instead of deriving the congregation from the pastoral office.
__._,_.___
Messages in this topic (1)
Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic
Messages | Links
We invite you to participate in the "Luther Quest Discussion Board"
http://www.Lutherquest.org
Please check out "Reclaiming Walther in the LCMS"
http://www.reclaimingwalther.org
Here you will find papers, articles, & previous releases.
Be sure to tell a friend about Reclaim News. Subscribing is easy.
Just have them send a blank email to:
reclaimnews-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
(In order to subscribe send a blank email to the following address:
reclaimnews-subscribe@yahoogroups.com You are invited to discuss this issue
on www.Lutherquest.org )
June 25, 2008
After reading about another LCMS Pastor, Rev. Daniel Woodring, joining the Catholic Church, we have to ask, “Why have there been more than 40 defections in the last 12 years.”
The answer lies in the poor instruction these clergy receive in the Doctrine of Justification and Church and Ministry.
It is widely accepted in the LCMS that Ordination is a sacrament even though the Lutheran Confessions say in the “Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope” that Ordination is nothing more than ratification of a call.
“70] And this also a most common CUSTOM of the Church testifies. For formerly the people ELECTED pastors and bishops. Then came a bishop, either of that church or a neighboring one, who confirmed the one elected by the laying on of hands; and ORDINATION WAS NOTHING ELSE THAN SUCH A RATIFICATION.”
The answer to the above question may lie in the fact that when a Pastor believes he has a sacrament beyond Baptism and the Lord’s Supper he has additional grace beyond the Doctrine of Justification by Faith Alone.
Once convinced of this false sacrament’s power he then believes in that power that he thinks God has placed in him, in other words he believes that he has become a living sacrament.
No only do the Lutheran Confessions not teaching any sacramental power in Ordination, they actually claim that the congregation and not the pastor is supreme.
“24] In addition to this, it is necessary to acknowledge that the keys belong not to the person of one particular man, but to the Church, as many most clear and firm arguments testify. For Christ, speaking concerning the keys adds, Matt. 18, 19: If two or three of you shall agree on earth, etc. Therefore he grants the keys principally and immediately to the Church, just as also for this reason the Church has principally the right of calling. [For just as the promise of the Gospel belongs certainly and immediately to the entire Church, so the keys belong immediately to the entire Church, because the keys are nothing else than the office whereby this promise is communicated to every one who desires it, just as it is actually manifest that the Church has the power to ordain ministers of the Church. And Christ speaks in these words: Whatsoever ye shall bind, etc., and indicates to whom He has given the keys, namely, to the Church: Where tw o or three are gathered together in My name. Likewise Christ gives SUPREME and final jurisdiction to the Church, when He says: Tell it unto the Church.]” (Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope, Concordia Triglotta.)
Luther was also clear about the congregation, and therefore the Voters’ Assembly, being above the pastor:
“When this polling or selecting process took place the entire congregation did the choosing, selecting, or calling of these men. THE APOSTLES LET THE CONGREGATION BE SUPREME. According to 1 Cor.3:23 all things belong to the congregation and it states in Cor.4:1, the pastors are stewards of the mysteries of God.” (Luther uses Acts 6:5 in defense of the Bohemians electing their own Bishops in Vol. 40 p. 38ff of Luther’s Works.)
Historically, the debate centered on the question of whether the church is an extension of the pastoral office or if the pastoral office is derived from the church?
This was the question that led to the famous Altenburg Debate. Marbach and Walther debated this question in front of ten other men in a log cabin. Walther argued from Scripture that the congregation was a true church without or before it had a pastor.
Both Luther and Walther use the example of the Bereans, “To see if these things are so,” “Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;” 1 Corinthians 3:22 and “Tell it to the church;” Matt, 18:19, to prove their point, among others.
Luther appears to be highly influenced by Augustine’s example of two men in a boat with no pastor. One baptizes the other and then he absolves the one who baptized him.
Luther reversed the Roman Catholic order of the three Estates from: Church, State, and Marriage, to Marriage, State, and Church. By placing the Church third Luther properly put all the clergy in the equivalent of the service industry.
Walther had to prove from Scripture that a group of Christians could vote themselves into existence as a church and then call a pastor. However, there are LCMS professors who reject Walther’s teaching on this point in “Church and Ministry.”
Yes, Christ gave some to be pastors and teachers. The key word is “gave” and the recipient is the congregation (all things are yours) who has to the right to fill the office by creating a pastor with its call. If the Office of the Ministry is vacant the congregation has a God given right to create a pastor with its call and fill the office.
Christians get to be Christians by being born again. Pastors are not born again by ordination; they are called by a congregation. It is the Office of the Christian, a priest of God, that can only be filled by God. The Church fills the Office of the Ministry.
God creates the Office of the Christian through the Means of Grace and Congregations create the pastor with their Call. In other words, pastors aren’t converted into being pastors and Christians aren't born pastors.
Luther’s study of the New Testament and his revulsion of the Roman Church led him to understand that the pastoral office is derived from the congregation instead of deriving the congregation from the pastoral office.
__._,_.___
Messages in this topic (1)
Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic
Messages | Links
We invite you to participate in the "Luther Quest Discussion Board"
http://www.Lutherquest.org
Please check out "Reclaiming Walther in the LCMS"
http://www.reclaimingwalther.org
Here you will find papers, articles, & previous releases.
Be sure to tell a friend about Reclaim News. Subscribing is easy.
Just have them send a blank email to:
reclaimnews-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Upvote
0
(In order to subscribe send a blank email to the following
address:reclaimnews-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:reclaimnews-subscribe%40yahoogroups.com> You are invited to discuss
this issue on www.Lutherquest.org )
October 23, 2008
"Benke Withdrawal Won't Restore Tarnished LCMS Brand"
Atlantic District President David Benke has withdrawn his statement that it
was OK to pray with Moslems at Yankee Stadium after 911 because Moslems
worship the true God.
President Gerald Kieschnick came to Benke's defense. He accused everyone
who complained about Benke's statement of breaking the 8th Commandment.
That made Benke more important than the First Commandment, "Thou shalt have
no other god's before Me."
Kieschnick tells us that this has always been the position of the LCMS,
based on the Bible and Luther.
When Second Vice President of the LCMS, Dr. Wally Schulz objected to Benke's
statement, he was fired from the Lutheran Hour. The Lutheran Hour lost half
its financial support--support that has never and will never return.
After Kieschnick's support for Benke, Schulz was also voted out of office in
2004.
In 2003, I flew out to Sun City Casino in Los Vegas with my wife to hear
Benke debate Schulz at the Southern California, Hawaii, and Nevada District
Pastors' Conference. During the debate, Benke no longer supported the
correct doctrine of the Trinity.
I asked from the floor mike: "Dr. Benke, shouldn't you have introduced your
prayer at Yankee Stadium by announcing that "Jesus is the only God," or "Let
us pray to the only God," or ending with "Jesus, the only God?"
"No!" He explained that it wouldn't have been appropriate.
The LCMS lost 35,000 members in 2007 and more than 175,000 members since
9-11. This is the worst extended period of losses in the Synod's history,
with no end in sight. At the time of his election in 2001, President
Kieschnick announced, "This isn't your grandfather's Synod." Kieschnick and
Benke have succeeded in taking down the LCMS with the Twin Towers.
Suddenly Benke has decided to withdraw his statement? Notice, Benke is
withdrawing his statement, not correcting it. He doesn't say it is wrong,
just imprecise. He writes:
"I retract the statement 'The Muslim God is Also the True God,' because it
is theologically imprecise.
Several little details:
1) This retraction has not been requested by anyone formally or instructed
to be given by anyone formally. The words of the retraction are simple, and
they are mine.
2) The theological imprecision is NOT in the following quotation from
Luther's Large Catechism (Tappert p. 419), which was part and parcel of the
two private emails distributed to the unofficial press on the outside edge
of my denomination without my knowledge or permission by an LCMS pastor
whose parishioner forwarded them to him without my knowledge or permission:
"All who are outside the Christian church, whether heathen, Turks, Jews, or
false Christians and hypocrites, even though they believe in and worship
only the one, true God, nevertheless do not know what his attitude is toward
them. They cannot be confident of his love and blessing. Therefore they
remain in eternal wrath and damnation, for they do not have the Lord Christ,
and, besides, they are not illuminated and blessed by the gifts of the Holy
Spirit.
Dave Benke"
The 2003 Michigan District Convention was presented with a resolution
intended to support Benke, with the majestic title "To Clearly Confess in
the Public Realm the True God and the Atonement of Christ for the Sins of
the World."
The whole resolution had the smell of a Christ-hating document. When I went
to the microphone and asked to include the words "as confessed in the
Athanasian Creed" a religion teacher from Concordia, Ann Arbor went up to
the microphone and started telling the Convention how right Benke was, yet,
no one had mentioned Benke's name.
The Convention, with hooting and hollering, voted down including "as
confessed in the Athanasian Creed" 45% to 55%. The Athanasian Creed says
that anyone who doesn't confess it will be damned.
When Synodical leaders won't stand up for Christ it means they are standing
up for power and money. This is why Redeemer Lutheran Church, left the LCMS
when the COP refused to follow congregational constitutions. Kieschnick
explained that a CCM ruling made it impossible for the COP to follow
congregational constitutions. It is tough work, but they are compelled to
despots.
God is negotiable but the District Presidents will never agree to follow
congregational constitutions.
In 2003 officers of the Atlantic District threatened to file charges against
the Walther Conference and Rev. Charles Henrickson if we showed the 911
tape. We showed the tape.
Kieschnick kicked the Walther Conference out of the Seminary in 2006 and
2007. Why we are allowed back in now, we haven't a clue. Perhaps he knows
that it no longer matters.
Now 7 years later, when hardly anyone cares, Benke has decided to withdraw
his statement. This isn't going to stop continuing losses of membership,
funds, and interest in the Synod. It's too late. The laity are already too
well aware of the Council of District Presidents' low regard for Jesus
Christ.
Laymen vote with their feet.
address:reclaimnews-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:reclaimnews-subscribe%40yahoogroups.com> You are invited to discuss
this issue on www.Lutherquest.org )
October 23, 2008
"Benke Withdrawal Won't Restore Tarnished LCMS Brand"
Atlantic District President David Benke has withdrawn his statement that it
was OK to pray with Moslems at Yankee Stadium after 911 because Moslems
worship the true God.
President Gerald Kieschnick came to Benke's defense. He accused everyone
who complained about Benke's statement of breaking the 8th Commandment.
That made Benke more important than the First Commandment, "Thou shalt have
no other god's before Me."
Kieschnick tells us that this has always been the position of the LCMS,
based on the Bible and Luther.
When Second Vice President of the LCMS, Dr. Wally Schulz objected to Benke's
statement, he was fired from the Lutheran Hour. The Lutheran Hour lost half
its financial support--support that has never and will never return.
After Kieschnick's support for Benke, Schulz was also voted out of office in
2004.
In 2003, I flew out to Sun City Casino in Los Vegas with my wife to hear
Benke debate Schulz at the Southern California, Hawaii, and Nevada District
Pastors' Conference. During the debate, Benke no longer supported the
correct doctrine of the Trinity.
I asked from the floor mike: "Dr. Benke, shouldn't you have introduced your
prayer at Yankee Stadium by announcing that "Jesus is the only God," or "Let
us pray to the only God," or ending with "Jesus, the only God?"
"No!" He explained that it wouldn't have been appropriate.
The LCMS lost 35,000 members in 2007 and more than 175,000 members since
9-11. This is the worst extended period of losses in the Synod's history,
with no end in sight. At the time of his election in 2001, President
Kieschnick announced, "This isn't your grandfather's Synod." Kieschnick and
Benke have succeeded in taking down the LCMS with the Twin Towers.
Suddenly Benke has decided to withdraw his statement? Notice, Benke is
withdrawing his statement, not correcting it. He doesn't say it is wrong,
just imprecise. He writes:
"I retract the statement 'The Muslim God is Also the True God,' because it
is theologically imprecise.
Several little details:
1) This retraction has not been requested by anyone formally or instructed
to be given by anyone formally. The words of the retraction are simple, and
they are mine.
2) The theological imprecision is NOT in the following quotation from
Luther's Large Catechism (Tappert p. 419), which was part and parcel of the
two private emails distributed to the unofficial press on the outside edge
of my denomination without my knowledge or permission by an LCMS pastor
whose parishioner forwarded them to him without my knowledge or permission:
"All who are outside the Christian church, whether heathen, Turks, Jews, or
false Christians and hypocrites, even though they believe in and worship
only the one, true God, nevertheless do not know what his attitude is toward
them. They cannot be confident of his love and blessing. Therefore they
remain in eternal wrath and damnation, for they do not have the Lord Christ,
and, besides, they are not illuminated and blessed by the gifts of the Holy
Spirit.
Dave Benke"
The 2003 Michigan District Convention was presented with a resolution
intended to support Benke, with the majestic title "To Clearly Confess in
the Public Realm the True God and the Atonement of Christ for the Sins of
the World."
The whole resolution had the smell of a Christ-hating document. When I went
to the microphone and asked to include the words "as confessed in the
Athanasian Creed" a religion teacher from Concordia, Ann Arbor went up to
the microphone and started telling the Convention how right Benke was, yet,
no one had mentioned Benke's name.
The Convention, with hooting and hollering, voted down including "as
confessed in the Athanasian Creed" 45% to 55%. The Athanasian Creed says
that anyone who doesn't confess it will be damned.
When Synodical leaders won't stand up for Christ it means they are standing
up for power and money. This is why Redeemer Lutheran Church, left the LCMS
when the COP refused to follow congregational constitutions. Kieschnick
explained that a CCM ruling made it impossible for the COP to follow
congregational constitutions. It is tough work, but they are compelled to
despots.
God is negotiable but the District Presidents will never agree to follow
congregational constitutions.
In 2003 officers of the Atlantic District threatened to file charges against
the Walther Conference and Rev. Charles Henrickson if we showed the 911
tape. We showed the tape.
Kieschnick kicked the Walther Conference out of the Seminary in 2006 and
2007. Why we are allowed back in now, we haven't a clue. Perhaps he knows
that it no longer matters.
Now 7 years later, when hardly anyone cares, Benke has decided to withdraw
his statement. This isn't going to stop continuing losses of membership,
funds, and interest in the Synod. It's too late. The laity are already too
well aware of the Council of District Presidents' low regard for Jesus
Christ.
Laymen vote with their feet.
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