• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Good 'OL LCMS

Status
Not open for further replies.

RadMan

Well-Known Member
Aug 22, 2007
3,580
288
79
Missouri
✟5,227.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
I found it on concorddx site and it wasn't signed. Don't know exactly where it is anymore. The point of the comment is to have people read the "minutes" and make their own decision. Reading the .pdf format would give you all the info you need.
 
Upvote 0

RadMan

Well-Known Member
Aug 22, 2007
3,580
288
79
Missouri
✟5,227.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
In the May 2001 issue of Affirm, Dr. Martin Noland provided a detailed analysis in an article entitled “What Is ‘Jesus First’?” Based on a thorough analysis, he concluded that this organization is made up of a diverse network of dissenting groups within the Missouri Synod. Dr. Noland observed that in June 2000, there were 522 people who endorsed the Jesus First statement entitled “A Call to Affirm Jesus-First Leadership.” Of these endorsers, 67% were Missouri Synod pastors (this included retired and those listed as CRM). Therefore, 33% of the endorsers were lay people or those holding other churchly offices (teachers, DCEs, and deaconesses). Thus, pastors outnumbered lay people two to one. The Missouri Synod pastors who endorsed the Jesus First statement constituted 18% of all LCMS pastors on the synodical roster. Noland further analyzed the pastors who endorsed the Jesus First statement, and found that many had belonged to other dissenting groups, including supporters of Seminex and John Tietjen.
In summarizing the nature of Jesus First and the intent of those involved in this organization, Dr. Martin Noland stated:
I believe that “Jesus First” may best be described as a “coalition of dissenting organizations and movements.” Chief among the dissenters are: 1) Seminex supporters, 2) Charismatics, 3) “Church Growth Movement” advocates, 4) advocates of “contemporary worship,” 5) advocates of woman’s ordination, 6) advocates of open communion, and 7) advocates of ecumenical fellowship practices. In order to succeed politically, these divergent dissenters have been forced to work together for a common cause, i.e., the overthrow of traditional Lutheran theology and practice in the Missouri Synod.



http://www.consensuslutheran.org/downloads/Wohlrabe2.pdf
 
Upvote 0

RadMan

Well-Known Member
Aug 22, 2007
3,580
288
79
Missouri
✟5,227.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Precursor to the formation of Jesus First and PLI.

After the Walkout at Concordia Seminary and the formation of Seminex, a colloquy program was established for Seminex graduates to be called and ordained to serve in Missouri Synod congregations. However, eight district presidents defiantly ordained Seminex graduates apart from the established synodical colloquy program. The 1975 Synodical Convention resolved that district presidents should ordain or authorize the ordination of only those candidates who are endorsed through the duly authorized synodical process. If they could not in good conscience uphold the Constitution and Bylaws of the Synod, then they should resign from the office of district president. If such district presidents did not resign or alter their position in ordaining Seminex graduates, then the synodical president was authorized to suspend them from office.230 Of the eight district presidents who persisted in ordaining uncolloquized Seminex graduates, President J.A.O. Preus eventually suspended four of them.

The Coordinating Council for a new church body made up of disgruntled LCMS pastors and congregations met on April 14, 1976. By the end of April they were incorporated in the state of Illinois as the Association of Evangelical Lutheran Churches (AELC). The constituting convention was held in Chicago on December 3-4, 1976. The number of congregations that helped form the AELC or that joined it later was considerably less than expected by the Coordinating Council, only 250 when Martin E. Marty had confidently predicted that a third of the Missouri Synod would follow Seminex.

The fact that many pastors and congregations, who sympathized with the theology and practice of the Seminex faculty and those who formed the AELC, then decided to stay in the Missouri Synod has had serious implications for the LCMS to this day, particularly with respect to maintaining the Synod’s doctrinal integrity.

The result was outreach to the exclusion of doctrinal integrity within the Synod. This led to marked struggle within the Missouri Synod between those who wanted to maintain the Synod’s confessional Lutheran integrity and those who wanted to alter or change it. Approximately 250 congregations and their pastors left the LCMS to form the AELC, which eventually helped unite with the LCA and TALC to form the ELCA. Yet, many remained within the Missouri Synod who sympathized with the views of John Tietjen, the Faculty Majority involved in the Walkout, and those who formed the AELC. This would have marked repercussions within the Synod in the years that followed, continuing even to the present.

http://www.consensuslutheran.org/dow.../Wohlrabe2.pdf
 
Upvote 0

jcj3803

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2007
856
51
✟23,772.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Single
Ya know it's kind of odd that I research out info [...].

You guys defend LCMS like it's a god. [...]. How much worse is it going to get before you recognize the rot from within. Or are you just going to role over and play dead.

As a former WELS member and then LCMS (because there isn't a WELS congregation within reasonable distance from me) who went UMC but is now returning to LCMS, I appreciate the heads up that the politische zeitgeist is something to be aware of.

You are leaving, others have said repeatedly that they will stay and fight whatever fight.

What exactly are you trying to accomplish with this and other posts? :scratch:

ADDENDUM: Oops! Never mind. I didn't realize there were 21 pages of comments, sorry.
 
Upvote 0

RadMan

Well-Known Member
Aug 22, 2007
3,580
288
79
Missouri
✟5,227.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
January 14, 2008

Fort Wayne "Incarnational Theology" Confuses Law, Gospel, & Christology

Why did the following quotations about the necessity of bishops appear in
the September/October 2007 Concordia Theological Seminary Fort Wayne student
paper, "The Cornerstone."

"Wherever the bishop appears, there let the congregation be; just as
wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the catholic church."

"For where there is not a bishop preaching and comforting souls, there is no
Church."

It was also strange to find these quotations associated with the title: "An
Incarnational Ecclesiology: Charitological and Liturgical."

On Nov. 5, 2007, "Reclaim News" sent out a release titled, "Fort Wayne
Student Paper Claims Church Is Centered on Bishop." We then received a
response identifying an article published in 1998 by Fort Wayne Professor
Dr. Arthur Just titled: "The Incarnational Life" as the inspiration for
numerous articles and papers on Incarnational Theology.

Quite frankly, in 1998 it was difficult to tell what Dr. Just was talking
about. But now it has become clearer that "Incarnational Theology" is being
applied by Dr. Just's students as code words for Sacerdotal Theology, or
"How I Became Jesus." The incarnational metamorphosis creates Bishops.

In reality, there is no such thing as Incarnational Theology. It doesn't
appear in the Bible, the Lutheran Confessions, or Pieper. "Incarnational
life" is Dr. Just's own term for whatever he wants it to be. There is no
Biblical support to use the noun "incarnation" as an adjective, because
there is no incarnation except the birth of Christ. No one else has two
natures in one Person except Jesus Christ.

Only Jesus Christ is incarnate, not incarnational or a little bit incarnate.
Incarnational theology attacks the Doctrine of the Trinity, and the
immutability of God. Only the human nature of Jesus Christ, conceived in
the Virgin Mary by the Holy Ghost, has been assumed into the Trinity.
Christ warns in Matthew 24 that many will come saying that they are Him and
that no one should believe it. He is immutable. He is not anyone else.

God is not an adjective. There are no Christian or incarnational plumbers,
doctors, airlines, business, or governments unless we are talking about
sanctification and good works, not identity.

The church is not Jesus Christ, the believer is not Jesus Christ, and the
clergy are not Jesus Christ. The clergy do not receive anything in their
person at ordination that makes them the slightest bit incarnational. Such
teaching is pure Sacerdotalism. Nothing and no one is incarnational, let
alone incarnate, except Jesus Christ. As Jimmy Durante used to say,
"Everyone wants to get into the act."

Not even the Lord's Supper is incarnational. Luther and Pieper are correct.
The whole Christ is not present in the Lord's Supper, otherwise we should
worship the consecrated elements in the Feast of Corpus Christi. Christ
says, "Take, eat, this is My Body." He didn't say, "Take, eat, this is Me."
Even if we float a Communion wafer in the Cup it is not the whole Christ.

Numerous verses about the indwelling of Christ in the believer do not make
the Christian incarnational or into Jesus Christ. Christ saves us, not
Himself in us. Verses about "putting on Christ" and "crucifying the flesh"
are about Sanctification not Justification. We are saved by faith, not by
Christ indwelling in us. He converts us; he doesn't convert Himself in us.
We are justified by Christ, not by Christ in us according to Article III of
the Formula of Concord.

In his article, Doctor Just uses the phrase "incarnation life" like Luther's
wax nose. Sometimes it's Law, sometimes it's Gospel. When a theologian
invents a theology he can make it anything he wants it to be.

The following are two examples in which Dr. Just uses the phrase
"incarnational life" as Gospel:

"The incarnational life began when Jesus Christ broke into our world."

"How the eternal God made flesh to be present in His church in simple words,
simple water, and simple bread and wine is part of the mystery we call the
incarnational life."

The following are two examples in which Dr. Just uses the phrase
"incarnational life" as the third use of the Law:

"The Christian pilgrimage is an incarnational life in Christ."

"To live incarnationally is to bear witness that Jesus Christ is present in
our world in His gifts through which His flesh is given to our flesh as the
place and instrument of His presence."

Confusion of Law and Gospel is found throughout Just's article. Not only is
he inconsistent in his application of the phrase, he also places Christ in
the flesh of the believer instead of the soul of the believer. Paul clearly
writes, "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good
thing:" Romans 7:18

It was only after reading Dr. Just's later writings that promoted
Osiandrianism (Article III Formula of Concord) and the most recent
reflections of his students, that his innovations became apparent. Just's
seemingly egghead, academic, elitism turned out to be far more focused and
calculating than I had ever imagined.

Just has invented a new source of divine grace and power by turning people
into Jesus. If the reader actually believes there is "Incarnational life"
there is abundant power to invigorate laypeople, along with enough extra
sacerdotal power for the clergy. Everyone is a winner. Instead of
inventing the light bulb he invented the electricity to light the bulb. He
has lots of room for creative applications for his invention. Welcome to
Greek Orthodoxy.

Just concludes: "And then go out into the world and be what you have become
in Christ!" This is the incarnational life!"
 
Upvote 0

ByzantineDixie

Handmaid of God, Mary
Jan 11, 2004
3,178
144
Visit site
✟26,649.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I'm curious as to who wrote this. It's an intriguing article.

Rad's article said:
The whole Christ is not present in the Lord's Supper, otherwise we should
worship the consecrated elements in the Feast of Corpus Christi. Christ
says, "Take, eat, this is My Body." He didn't say, "Take, eat, this is Me."
Even if we float a Communion wafer in the Cup it is not the whole Christ.

From my former days reading LutherQuest this sounds like Al Loeschman's unique Eucharistic theology. I didn't think it represented mainline Lutheranism. But I could be wrong. Is this what the Lutherans here believe?
 
Upvote 0

RadMan

Well-Known Member
Aug 22, 2007
3,580
288
79
Missouri
✟5,227.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Here is the article by Dr. Arthur Just so you know of the origin. This is why I would like comments to the above article. Is it overstated or accurate? I just thought that I would give anyone here the consideration of not stating that the articles are what I believe but whether it can be believed or explained.

http://www.lifeoftheworld.com/lotw/article.php?m_vol=2&m_num=2&a_num=1
 
Upvote 0

MagnusEmboden

Active Member
Dec 12, 2007
80
7
✟22,760.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Redeemer of SCS is five miles from my house.

I know Jack Cascione.

He is a tireless self-promoter and a trouble maker.

Which is not to say that the District wasn't wrong.

But Pastor Jack dealt with it improperly and continues to portray himself as a martyr for the cause of Old Missourianism.
 
Upvote 0

RadMan

Well-Known Member
Aug 22, 2007
3,580
288
79
Missouri
✟5,227.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Redeemer of SCS is five miles from my house.

I know Jack Cascione.

He is a tireless self-promoter and a trouble maker.

Which is not to say that the District wasn't wrong.

But Pastor Jack dealt with it improperly and continues to portray himself as a martyr for the cause of Old Missourianism.
That's possible but what has that to do with what is going on in LCMS? People use their dislike for Cascione and Otten to excuse what is going on in the synod and ignore it. Even the ones that do admit a problem try and cover it up and hope the problem goes away by saying that "someone" is doing something about it when there is no evidence whatsoever.

If you guys/gals would ever get over this Otten, Cascione kick maybe then you would be some help to the synod. Until then you're apathy will be your undoing.
 
Upvote 0

DaSeminarian

Veteran
Nov 16, 2006
1,527
116
63
✟17,272.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
That's possible but what has that to do with what is going on in LCMS? People use their dislike for Cascione and Otten to excuse what is going on in the synod and ignore it. Even the ones that do admit a problem try and cover it up and hope the problem goes away by saying that "someone" is doing something about it when there is no evidence whatsoever.

If you guys/gals would ever get over this Otten, Cascione kick maybe then you would be some help to the synod. Until then you're apathy will be your undoing.


It would be much easier to get over the Otten/Cascione kick if they (Otten/Cascione) would just get on with their lives and quit poking their head into the business of the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod.
 
Upvote 0

RadMan

Well-Known Member
Aug 22, 2007
3,580
288
79
Missouri
✟5,227.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
A lot of the ideas presented are familiar in Orthodoxy. I liked most of what was written...so there is probably something wrong with it from a Lutheran perspective! :p

It would be much easier to get over the Otten/Cascione kick if they (Otten/Cascione) would just get on with their lives and quit poking their head into the business of the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod.
How come outsiders can see a problem but people within the LCMS choose to ignore it? Or at least cover it up.
 
Upvote 0

DaRev

Well-Known Member
Apr 18, 2006
15,117
716
✟19,002.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
If you guys/gals would ever get over this Otten, Cascione kick maybe then you would be some help to the synod. Until then you're apathy will be your undoing.

I agree with this 1000%!! If people would get over Otten and Cascione, then there would be a united Confessional stance in the synod. These two guys have done more to fracture the LCMS than Keischnick and his ilk ever has.

How come outsiders can see a problem but people within the LCMS choose to ignore it? Or at least cover it up.

The "outsiders" only see their agenda and those who don't agree with them on every iota of their agenda are accused of ignoring, covering up, or some other nonsense. Maybe if Otten and Cascione had chosen to be part of the solution instead of perpetuating the problems by standing outside throwing stones, people would take them more seriously. If they spent half the energy working for the synod as they spend working against it, we wouldn't have near the problems that we have today. In fact, they are directly responsible for Keischnick being elected LCMS president for three terms.
 
Upvote 0

DaSeminarian

Veteran
Nov 16, 2006
1,527
116
63
✟17,272.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
How come outsiders can see a problem but people within the LCMS choose to ignore it? Or at least cover it up.

If I may be frank, I don't think we are dismissing it, but we disagree on what the solution is to the problem or even more important that whay you think the problem is is not really the problem.

The Synod in convention has spoken again for the third time that Kieschnick is who they want as president. Clearly trying to get another President elected in synod has not worked. There is no conservative that the moderates or liberals trust to be their leader. Kieschnick for all intents and purposes is a safe choice for the moment.

Too often a conservative has gotten into office and they have tried to clean house in the seminaries. No one wants to give up the ground they have gained so they will continue to vote on who they think will either continue the status quo or will administrate in their favor. Jesus First and DayStar are only a small contingent.
 
Upvote 0

RadMan

Well-Known Member
Aug 22, 2007
3,580
288
79
Missouri
✟5,227.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Jesus First and DayStar are only a small contingent.


"In 1999, three dissenting groups came together to form Jesus First/DayStar, which would continue to stress outreach to the exclusion of doctrinal integrity within the Synod. This attempt at a hostile takover of the Missouri Synod was vigorously opposed by a group of more conservative, or confessional, pastors and theologians, led by Dr. Robert Preus, President of Concordia Theological Seminary, Ft. Wayne. The confessional Lutherans, while not neglecting outreach--the Ft. Wayne seminary has been a beehive of mission activity, particularly in the foreign field--has sought to restore a proper emphasis on doctrinal integrity to the LCMS."

"Following his defeat at the 1992 synodical convention, Dr. Bohlmann sent what many saw as a bitter letter to all Missouri Synod pastors, condemning church politicks. In that letter, he also tried to explain that the reason he sought to remove Dr. Robert Preus was doctrinal. Referring to a “Highly organized network” which had opposed his presidency, Bohlmann said:
A few comments about its theological focus might be helpful…. In fact, many in the political network hold positions to the right of the Synod’s in such key areas as women in the church, inter-Christian relationships, the pastoral office, and the manner of exercising Christian discipline. They have labeled their own position as ‘confessional’ or ‘conservative’. 246
After that, Dr. Bohlmann became instrumental in both the “Lutherans Alive” and “Jesus First” political organizations"

"Following the formation of the AELC in 1976, three dissenting movements have remained within the Synod, movements that are also dominant in American church life today: liberal, charismatic, and evangelical. These three dissenting movements have now joined forces to form one dissenting organization called Jesus First; its organizers and supporters intent on altering the doctrinal integrity of the Missouri Synod, under the banner of “outreach”."

"The development of the liberal movement in the Missouri Synod has been noted above with its emphasis on Gospel reductionism, the use of the historical critical method in Biblical studies, and ecumenism or church fellowship based on a standard that is less than that articulated in the Lutheran Confessions. Not all of its adherents left the Missouri Synod at the formation of the AELC.
In response to the confessional or conservative movement that proved dissatisfied with the Bohlmann presidency, and which resulted in the election of Dr. Alvin Barry as synodical president at the 1992 convention, many of those involved in the liberal movement within the Missouri Synod formed a counter political organization called Lutherans Alive in 1995. This group published a regular newsletter entitled Forward under the editorial leadership of Pastor Henry Koepchen, former Atlantic District President. This group attempted to present themselves as a mediating position within the Synod. 248 Lutherans Alive continued their political activities until they participated in the formation of Jesus First in 1999."

"The organization Jesus First was founded as a not-for-profit religious organization in April 1999. It is governed by a thirteen-member board, and publishes a popular magazine entitled Jesus First.259 A connected organization, DayStar, sponsors symposiums and publishes papers and articles espousing views similar to that of Jesus First.260 The Jesus First magazine encourages its readers to attend DayStar free conferences, and leaders of Jesus First have been speakers at these symposiums.261 Jesus First was instrumental in electing Gerald Kieshnick—an ostensibly conservative Church Growth advocate whose platform was “Mission is Job One”— as president of the Missouri Synod in 2001, and both Jesus First and DayStar continue avidly in their support of his policies."

"In the May 2001 issue of Affirm, Dr. Martin Noland provided a detailed analysis in an article entitled “What Is ‘Jesus First’?” Based on a thorough analysis, he concluded that this organization is made up of a diverse network of dissenting groups within the Missouri Synod.263 Dr. Noland observed that in June 2000, there were 522 people who endorsed the Jesus First statement entitled “A Call to Affirm Jesus-First Leadership.” Of these endorsers, 67% were Missouri Synod pastors (this included retired and those listed as CRM). Therefore, 33% of the endorsers were lay people or those holding other churchly offices (teachers, DCEs, and deaconesses). Thus, pastors outnumbered lay people two to one. The Missouri Synod pastors who endorsed the Jesus First statement constituted 18% of all LCMS pastors on the synodical roster. Noland further analyzed the pastors who endorsed the Jesus First statement, and found that many had belonged to other dissenting groups, including supporters of Seminex and John Tietjen"

"In summarizing the nature of Jesus First and the intent of those involved in this organization, Dr. Martin Noland stated:
I believe that “Jesus First” may best be described as a “coalition of dissenting organizations and movements.” Chief among the dissenters are: 1) Seminex supporters, 2) Charismatics, 3) “Church Growth Movement” advocates, 4) advocates of “contemporary worship,” 5) advocates of woman’s ordination, 6) advocates of open communion, and 7) advocates of ecumenical fellowship practices. In order to succeed politically, these divergent dissenters have been forced to work together for a common cause, i.e., the overthrow of traditional Lutheran theology and practice in the Missouri Synod."

"At the heart of this dissident movement in the Missouri Synod today is the same Gospel reductionism that began in the latter part of the first half of the 20th century, opened the way for the use of the historical critical method, fomented the Walkout and led to the schism that was the formation of the AELC. Now it continues to impact the Missouri Synod in the areas of women’s issues, missions, and the nature and practice of fellowship.
The fiftieth anniversary of “A Statement of the 44” was celebrated by the ALPB at a banquet in White Plains, New York, on October 22, 1995, with Dr. Ralph Bohlmann serving as guest speaker. Dr. Bohlmann expressed his appreciation to the ALPB for the catalytic role they have played in American Lutheranism, and in his own life. Dr. Bohlmann stated that the issues raised by the 44 are issues that still concern Lutherans in every age. He notes that “A Statement” identified the deep cleavage that exists among those whose theology and practice are Gospel centered, and those whose focus is in large part driven by the Law. He sees the Statementarians as having a sense of Gospel primacy.266 Of course those who push for doctrinal integrity are seen as legalistic Pharisees who have no passion for lost souls.
More current Gospel reductionism can be identified in the writings of Pastor Stephen C. Krueger, although he calls it “The Promising Tradition.” Krueger is a graduate of Seminex who colloquized into the Missouri Synod, and readily acknowledges:
The Promising Tradition is associated with voices like those of Bob Bertram and Ed Schroeder. I, with many others, have been a shameless borrower of many of the things they taught me. But, then, so were they, as they would be the first to say. It was Richard Caemmerer, “Doc,” who opened their eyes and rescued them, as he did so many, from the staid and dead dogmatism and legalism which seem to ever dog Missouri."

"Those who supported Seminex also favored the ordination of women, and after the AELC was formed, that church body began ordaining women. It is no secret that there are some women with connections to the Missouri Synod who strongly advocate the ordination of women within the Synod; there are men, including pastors, who advocate this position also. Many of them are associated with the ecclesio-political group Jesus First and its connected organization DayStar"

"Jesus First and DayStar issued their own “Affirmation of Support” for Benke, listing more than 600 signatures" “A Prayer for America” at Yankee Stadium has become a catalyst for further change in the Missouri Synod according to the agenda of Jesus First and DayStar.317 Both District President Benke and Synodical President Kieschnick, along with other District Presidents and officials in other synodical organizations, are part of this call for change, placing outreach over doctrinal integrity within the Missouri Synod.

"It is unfortunate that Jesus First and other groups that press for outreach at the expense of doctrinal integrity should make such vicious attacks on those who seek to restore balance in the LCMS with accusations of being Nazis, the Taliban of Christianity, Pharisees, and other such malicious rhetoric."
 
Upvote 0

seajoy

Senior Veteran
Jul 5, 2006
8,092
631
michigan
✟34,053.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Rev and Sem.....besides Cascione and Otten, what other things that Rad says, do you believe are incorrect concerning the LCMS?

When I belonged to the LCMS, some 15yrs ago or so, I saw many things that were heading towards very liberal desires of some, to change things into what Rad describes above. I found this disturbing back then and I had never even heard of Cascione or Otten.

Can we stop beating Rad up here, and really listen to what the problems are, and if there are any remedies in the works? You guys should actually know what these remedies are since you are so close to Synod activities. Is a split the only recourse? Or can things be turned around?

Thanks guys,
seajoy :)
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.