Good Friday - beliefs.

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Pretty cool. My mother-in-law used to make wine from wild strawberries. she put sugar in it but no yeast. Not bad for homemade. She made about a half gallon at a time, because it took a lot of those little tiny wild strawberries.

Wild yeast, but it still needs yeast to make alcohol...

 

[The Liturgist]

He's drinking French Press coffee! Heretic!

In my experience the Antiochian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox (and other Rum Orthodox people), and the Syriac Orthodox make the best coffee of the variety commonly called “Turkish Coffee” in the West, when like many Turkish things, it is in fact Byzantine*. As an added plus, in my experience Orthodox Christians usually bother to filter their coffee, which does not always happen with actual Turkish coffee, and I for one am not a fan of seeing coffee grounds in my empty cup.

Then there is Ethiopian coffee, which is almost literally rocket fuel. One cup of it can make a two mile walk seem to pass by in a matter of seconds. SpaceX could probably launch the Starship using Ethiopian coffee and a suitably potent oxidizer.



*On a serious note, the Turks do actually have a rich and beautiful culture, but one which is critically endangered, ironically just like the persecuted Middle Eastern Christian cultures, when one considers the best expressions of Turkish culture are in the traditional music and poetry, which is largely cultivated by the Mevlevi, Bektasi and Alevi Sufis, which have endured steadily increasing persecution under the neo-Islamist regime. The Bektasis and especially the Alevis also have crypto-Christian elements.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I got it from a Jewish site, not a Catholic one. Maybe you ought to go there and square 'em away. In the meantime, I can go with what you say Jews believe, or what Jews say Jews believe. Hmmm... decisions, decisions...

BTW, halakha can change over time and it has.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Wild yeast, but it still needs yeast to make alcohol...

What do you think of this? making wine - Bing video

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

What do you think of this? making wine - Bing video

What about it?? Wild yeast eats the natural sugar in the grapes to make alcohol.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

What about it?? Wild yeast eats the natural sugar in the grapes to make alcohol.

I wonder if the ancient Israelites were aware that yeasts blown about by the wind and carried by insects or other vectors was what caused wine to ferment when crushed grapes in their juices were stored for any length of time?

 

[prodromos]

I wonder if the ancient Israelites were aware that yeasts blown about by the wind and carried by insects or other vectors was what caused wine to ferment when crushed grapes in their juices were stored for any length of time?

Isn't it all about "leaven", which is sour dough put aside from the previous batch of bread dough? They wouldn't have had yeast in the form that we usually buy it now.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I wonder if the ancient Israelites were aware that yeasts blown about by the wind and carried by insects or other vectors was what caused wine to ferment when crushed grapes in their juices were stored for any length of time?

Why would you think that they didn't???

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Why would you think that they didn't???

well, mainly because scripture almost never attributes any biological knowledge to them. Or, for that matter, to anyone else. It wasn't an age noted for scientific acumen.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

well, mainly because scripture almost never attributes any biological knowledge to them. Or, for that matter, to anyone else. It wasn't an age noted for scientific acumen.

It was a natural phenomenon. You did not need to understand the science behind it lol...I mean they were making alcohol in Egypt...

 

[bbbbbbb]

What about it?? Wild yeast eats the natural sugar in the grapes to make alcohol.

Yeast, by any other name, is a fermentation agent. The common understanding of yeast is that it is an added ingredient which is used in baking and in alcohol production. I believe that is the understanding the BobRyan holds. Thus, his argument is not so much that wine is the result of natural fermentation, but of intentional fermentation where specific quantities of yeast are introduced to God's pure grape juice. Without introducing yeast, the argument goes, grape juice would remain, indefinitely, the pure, non-alcoholic beverage that God created for man's enjoyment. Never mind the fact that grape juice has a relatively short shelf life which eliminates it use as a non-toxic beverage for much of the year. However, voila, Mr. Welch came on the scene in the nineteenth century and discovered the means of cooking grape juice and preserving it for safe use.

This, on the face of it, is a relatively harmless argument on the order of the multitude of conspiracy theories which float around in society. It becomes annoying when it gains traction with people who really and sincerely want to believe it for reasons which are grounded neither in history or science. In this case, the reasons are religious. Religious conspiracy theories can become actually lethal (witness Islam) if they gain enough traction. For BobRyan this is a significant issue, but hardly the primary issue in his theology (that issue is the salvific nature of engaging in nineteenth-century American Protestant religious activities on Saturday only). Nor is he and his denomination the only ones who adhere to the grape juice/wine issue. Many hyper-fundamentalist Protestant denominations also push the issue, along with other issies such as KJV only.

It is useless to argue with these people. Their minds are made up, as it is said, so don't confuse them with the facts. The best to hope for is that it slowly fades off the scene.

 

[Jipsah]

BTW, halakha can change over time and it has.

In this case is there any reason to believe that it has?

 

[The Liturgist]

Pretty cool. My mother-in-law used to make wine from wild strawberries. she put sugar in it but no yeast. Not bad for homemade. She made about a half gallon at a time, because it took a lot of those little tiny wild strawberries.

That sounds delicious. My guess is the fermentation process was accomplished by airborne yeasts, which is how the exquisite Lambic Beer of Belgium is made.

Lambic beer, in contrast to other famous Belgian beers like the Trappist ales, where yeast is intentionally introduced, is fermented in the attics of breweries around Brussels, which are kept intentionally dusty as this attracts the highly desirable species of airborne yeast which thrive in the suburbs of the Belgian capital, and this yeast gives Lambic beer a delicious sour flavor. It should be noted that among gourmet beer, sours are the rarest and most sought after variety. Most Lambic beer is also brewed with fruit, giving the end product a delicious sweet flavor. The most popular varieties are peach, raspberry, apple and currant. Around 2008-2009, Cantilon, one of the most celebrated Lambic breweries, did a special limited run with Danish blueberries that by 2010-2011 was fetching prices of $2,000/bottle, if one could find it at all, which was unlikely outside of Belgium.

Like the famous Trappist ales, and indeed all traditional ales and lagers, the beer is bottled with the yeast still active, resulting in natural carbonation, in contrast to the Czech-German Pilsner style, which dominates the domestic marketplace in the US (all the top selling “macro” beers are Pilsners, for example, Buddweiser, Miller and Coors), which is pasteurized and is force carbonated like Coca-cola.

Not that Pilsners are inherently bad; the pasteurization and force carbonation of modern American Pilsners provides for an extreme level of consistency and allows for quality control. And of course the original Pilsner, Pilsner Urquell, accomplishes this consistency in a more natural way, and it was a desire for such consistency that prompted the Czech town of Plzen in Bohemia to open its own municipal brewery in the mid 19th century, with the famed Bavarian brewmaster Josef Groll at the helm.

I expect my friend @MarkRohfrietsch , who like me is an aficionado of luxury beer.

 

[The Liturgist]

It was a natural phenomenon. You did not need to understand the science behind it lol...I mean they were making alcohol in Egypt...

Of course Egypt and Mesopotamia were the most scientifically advanced and knowledgeable civilizations in the region as late as the Islamic era. Egyptian technological prowress did not end with the Old Kingdom. Indeed, Alexander the Great rejuvenated Egypt’s scientific and technological culture with the Great Library, and around 100 BC the Coptic Calendar, of which the Julian Calendar is a variation, was developed, and this was the first modern calendar and indeed the Gregorian calendar is merely a slightly more accurate revision of it, with the Roman system of months last revised to name a month after Caesar Augustus replacing the Coptic months like Epip, Thout, Khiak and Hathor as the only real difference.

Alexandrian technological progress did not end there, even. The Polytechnic of Alexandria, which may have been a university, or an assembly of learned philosophers and mechanical engineers, furnished Emperor Nero with many of the famed wonders and novelties that furnished his legendary Domus Aureae (the Golden House, his marvelous palace that ultimately failed to keep him excited, so instead he allegedly burned down Rome planning on rebuilding it, and when accused of this by angry citizens, blamed the Christians and burned our ancestors in the faith as human torches, granting the crown of martyrdom to many Christians including Saints Peter and Paul).

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

In this case is there any reason to believe that it has?

Shavuah tov! My point was that just because something is being done or not done TODAY does not always mean it was the same 2000 years ago.