Clare73
Blood-bought
- Jun 12, 2012
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I know of spiritual rather than natural (both being physical) bodies at the resurectionI thought you were clear.
Thanks.
No need to put natural. Do you know of any unnatural dead?
You do not understand Paul's usage of "natural" (physical, mortal, sinful, weak) and "spiritual" (physical, immortal, sinless, powerful).
Is that your idea of an intellectually honest rendition of the meaning of my alteration of your proposal?So, this is your text :
35 But someone will say, “How are the dead bodies raised up? And with what body do the dead bodies come?” 36 Foolish one, what you sow (the dead body) is not made alive unless the dead body dies. 37 And what you sow (the dead body), you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain - perhaps wheat or some other grain (the dead body). 38 But God gives the dead body a body as He pleases, and to each seed (dead body) its own body.
Therefore, you believe dead bodies die, and God raises up dead bodies, and gives the dead body a body.
Is omission of the plant analogy on which it is based being intellectually honest?Can you tell me if that makes sense to you. Can you explain how God gives the body a body, and why God would do that, or even why God needs to do that?
Understanding of the word of God is closed to the intellectually dishonest handling of it.If you are saying the spirit or soul is immortal, why does God need to raise up dead bodies, to give that dead body a body?
1) Why not just clothe the immortal spirit with an immortal imperishable body?
2) The immortal spirit does not even need to be raised up, since it's not dead.
1) The immortal spirit is clothed with a physical body which is transformed from natural to spiritual.
2) The natural body dies, is separated from its spirit and is buried in the ground
The spirit is immortal. It never dies and is never raised.
At the death of their mortal bodies, the immortal spirits of the righteous are with God (Php 1:21-23) until the resurrection, when they are then reunited with their new bodies, described in 1 Co 15:42-44.
In the general resurrection of all mankind (sheep and goats) at the second coming of Christ at the end of time,
the physical bodies of the righteous which rise will no longer be natural (mortal, sinful, weak) but will be spiritual (physical, immortal, sinless, powerful).
I presented that Scripture as demonstration of both soul and spirit in the human person.Clare, the scripture reads. :
For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Addressed in post #25:Is there a scripture that says we have an immortal soul and immortal spirit? There is none.
"We do not wish to put off (be unclothed)" (v.4) = unclothed spirit after death of the body
The dismantling of the spirit's earthly tent--the death and separation from its body--is unnatural to man in the highest degree.
There is an earnest desire that if it were the will of God, we might not die, but just be changed, because in itself, it is not desirable that our spirit be unclothed and separated from its body.
While death, considered merely in terms of separation of spirit and body, is not to be desired but dreaded; nevertheless, when considered as a passage to glory, the believer is willing rather to die than live, to be absent from the body that he may be present with the Lord, to leave this body that he may go to Christ, and to put off these rags of mortality that he may put on the robes of glory.
So, rather than dying and his spirit being with Christ unclothed, he would rather Christ just come, that he not die but be changed. . .
in the twinkling of an eye (1 Co 15:51-52), swallowing up his mortal body with immortal life.
The soul and the spirit are presented in the NT as having some of the same functions.I have a question for you :
Can the soul die? A simple yes or no, would be sufficient, thanks.
The spirit being immortal, the soul would also be immortal.
The immortal cannot die.
Paul is speaking of the death of the person.
1 Corinthians 15:
3 Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures...
4 He was buried... He rose again the third day...
6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once...
12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen.
14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.
15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up - if in fact the dead do not rise. 16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen.
17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
He doesn't have to, they are the only part of man that dies and rises from the dead. See above from post #25.20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up?"
Did you notice - nowhere did Paul talk about dead bodies. Paul repeatedly refers to the dead period (full stop .)
1 Co 15 is about our resurrection, of which Jesus is our pattern and its firstfruits (1 Co 15:22-23).
The spirit of the God-man Jesus did not die on the cross. He committed his spirit back to God with his last breath. Only his body died.
All spirits are immortal.
That is the light in which the apostolic teaching of the resurrection is to be understood.
Answered in post #59.I thank you for responding, although once again somehow you, for the second time, didn't answer my question.
Do you believe that the unrighteous are resurrected to heaven?
Is that hard to answer Clare? Be honest with me. Does it hurt in some way? A simple yes or no, would be fine here, as well.
My idea of progress does not include intellectual dishonesty, of which there is more here than I care to fade, meaning that I don't see any progress as actually possible.We're making some progress.
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