Gone To Rest

[Clare73]

I thought you were clear.
Thanks.
No need to put natural. Do you know of any unnatural dead?

I know of spiritual rather than natural (both being physical) bodies at the resurection
You do not understand Paul's usage of "natural" (physical, mortal, sinful, weak) and "spiritual" (physical, immortal, sinless, powerful).

So, this is your text :
35 But someone will say, “How are the dead bodies raised up? And with what body do the dead bodies come?” 36 Foolish one, what you sow (the dead body) is not made alive unless the dead body dies. 37 And what you sow (the dead body), you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain - perhaps wheat or some other grain (the dead body). 38 But God gives the dead body a body as He pleases, and to each seed (dead body) its own body.

Therefore, you believe dead bodies die, and God raises up dead bodies, and gives the dead body a body.

Is that your idea of an intellectually honest rendition of the meaning of my alteration of your proposal?

Can you tell me if that makes sense to you. Can you explain how God gives the body a body, and why God would do that, or even why God needs to do that?

Is omission of the plant analogy on which it is based being intellectually honest?

If you are saying the spirit or soul is immortal, why does God need to raise up dead bodies, to give that dead body a body?
1) Why not just clothe the immortal spirit with an immortal imperishable body?
2) The immortal spirit does not even need to be raised up, since it's not dead.

Understanding of the word of God is closed to the intellectually dishonest handling of it.

1) The immortal spirit is clothed with a physical body which is transformed from natural to spiritual.

2) The natural body dies, is separated from its spirit and is buried in the ground
The spirit is immortal. It never dies and is never raised.
At the death of their mortal bodies, the immortal spirits of the righteous are with God (Php 1:21-23) until the resurrection, when they are then reunited with their new bodies, described in 1 Co 15:42-44.

In the general resurrection of all mankind (sheep and goats) at the second coming of Christ at the end of time,
the physical bodies of the righteous which rise will no longer be natural (mortal, sinful, weak) but will be spiritual (physical, immortal, sinless, powerful).

Clare, the scripture reads. :

For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.​

I presented that Scripture as demonstration of both soul and spirit in the human person.

Is there a scripture that says we have an immortal soul and immortal spirit? There is none.​

Addressed in post #25:

"We do not wish to put off (be unclothed)" (v.4) = unclothed spirit after death of the body
The dismantling of the spirit's earthly tent--the death and separation from its body--is unnatural to man in the highest degree.
There is an earnest desire that if it were the will of God, we might not die, but just be changed, because in itself, it is not desirable that our spirit be unclothed and separated from its body.
While death, considered merely in terms of separation of spirit and body, is not to be desired but dreaded; nevertheless, when considered as a passage to glory, the believer is willing rather to die than live, to be absent from the body that he may be present with the Lord, to leave this body that he may go to Christ, and to put off these rags of mortality that he may put on the robes of glory.
So, rather than dying and his spirit being with Christ unclothed, he would rather Christ just come, that he not die but be changed. . .
in the twinkling of an eye (1 Co 15:51-52), swallowing up his mortal body with immortal life.

I have a question for you :
Can the soul die? A simple yes or no, would be sufficient, thanks.

The soul and the spirit are presented in the NT as having some of the same functions.
The spirit being immortal, the soul would also be immortal.
The immortal cannot die.

Paul is speaking of the death of the person.
1 Corinthians 15:
3 Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures...
4 He was buried... He rose again the third day...
6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once...
12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen.
14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.
15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up - if in fact the dead do not rise. 16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen.
17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up?"
Did you notice - nowhere did Paul talk about dead bodies. Paul repeatedly refers to the dead period (full stop .)

He doesn't have to, they are the only part of man that dies and rises from the dead. See above from post #25.

1 Co 15 is about our resurrection, of which Jesus is our pattern and its firstfruits (1 Co 15:22-23).
The spirit of the God-man Jesus did not die on the cross. He committed his spirit back to God with his last breath. Only his body died.
All spirits are immortal.

That is the light in which the apostolic teaching of the resurrection is to be understood.

I thank you for responding, although once again somehow you, for the second time, didn't answer my question.

Do you believe that the unrighteous are resurrected to heaven?
Is that hard to answer Clare? Be honest with me. Does it hurt in some way? A simple yes or no, would be fine here, as well.

Answered in post #59.

We're making some progress.

My idea of progress does not include intellectual dishonesty, of which there is more here than I care to fade, meaning that I don't see any progress as actually possible.

 

[CoreyD]

I know of spiritual rather than natural (both being physical) bodies at the resurection
You do not understand Paul's usage of "natural" (physical, mortal, sinful, weak) and "spiritual" (physical, immortal, sinless, powerful).

Is that your idea of an intellectually honest rendition of my alteration of your proposal?

We could have a look.
Here is what I said.

So, this is your text :
35 But someone will say, “How are the dead bodies raised up? And with what body do the dead bodies come?” 36 Foolish one, what you sow (the dead body) is not made alive unless the dead body dies. 37 And what you sow (the dead body), you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain - perhaps wheat or some other grain (the dead body). 38 But God gives the dead body a body as He pleases, and to each seed (dead body) its own body.

Therefore, you believe dead bodies die, and God raises up dead bodies, and gives the dead body a body.

you believe dead bodies die
Clare73 said:
I have altered yours following to reflect the meaning:
"35 But someone will say, “How are the dead natural dead bodies raised up? And with what kind of body do they the formerly natural dead bodies come?” 36 Foolish one, what you sow (seed, using analogy of plant life to refer to natural buried body) is not made alive unless it the dead body (seed) dies. 37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body (plant) that shall be, but mere grain (seed)— perhaps wheat or some other grain. 38 But God gives it the dead body (the seed) a body (plant) as He pleases, and to each seed dead body its own body (plant)."

you believe God raises up dead bodies
Clare73 said:
I have altered yours following to reflect the meaning:
"35 But someone will say, “How are the dead natural dead bodies raised up? And with what kind of body do they the formerly natural dead bodies come?” 36 Foolish one, what you sow (seed, using analogy of plant life to refer to natural buried body) is not made alive unless it the dead body (seed) dies. 37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body (plant) that shall be, but mere grain (seed)— perhaps wheat or some other grain. 38 But God gives it the dead body (the seed) a body (plant) as He pleases, and to each seed dead body its own body (plant)."


you believe God gives the dead body a body.
Clare73 said:
I have altered yours following to reflect the meaning:
"35 But someone will say, “How are the dead natural dead bodies raised up? And with what kind of body do they the formerly natural dead bodies come?” 36 Foolish one, what you sow (seed, using analogy of plant life to refer to natural buried body) is not made alive unless it the dead body (seed) dies. 37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body (plant) that shall be, but mere grain (seed)— perhaps wheat or some other grain. 38 But God gives it the dead body (the seed) a body (plant) as He pleases, and to each seed dead body its own body (plant)."

Where did I go wrong? Did I not represent what you said, exactly?
That's why I asked if it made sense to you, because you said it, but sometimes when we listen to ourselves, or read back and think about what we actually wrote, we sometimes say, 'Wait a minute. I said that? What I meant was......".

Is omission of the plant analogy on which it is based being intellectually honest?

Did I change something? What did I change?

I presented this Scripture as demonstration of both soul and spirit in the human person.

Hebrews 4:12 ...piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Yes, we have life, and yes, we have spirit. Also, joints and marrow, and thoughts, etc.
I think we all know that, but you were to demonstrate what you said, which was The human person is tri-part, body, immortal soul and immortal spirit. (Heb 4:12).

You didn't do that.

The soul and the spirit are presented in the NT as having some of the same functions.
Since the spirit is immortal, I guess that means the soul is immortal.
The immortal cannot die.

Yes, immortal means cannot die nor be destroyed.
Since the soul dies, and can be destroyed Ezekiel 18:4; Matthew 10:28, then the soul is not immortal.
Do you accept that?

I hope you don't mind, I omitted those parts of your post so that I didn't have to put up my picture again.

 

[Clare73]

We could have a look.
Here is what I said.
you believe dead bodies die
Clare73 said:
I have altered yours following to reflect the meaning:
"35 But someone will say, “How are the dead natural dead bodies raised up? And with what kind of body do they the formerly natural dead bodies come?” 36 Foolish one, what you sow (seed, using analogy of plant life to refer to natural buried body) is not made alive unless it the dead body (seed) dies. 37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body (plant) that shall be, but mere grain (seed)— perhaps wheat or some other grain. 38 But God gives it the dead body (the seed) a body (plant) as He pleases, and to each seed dead body its own body (plant)."
you believe God raises up dead bodies
Clare73 said:
I have altered yours following to reflect the meaning:
"35 But someone will say, “How are the dead natural dead bodies raised up? And with what kind of body do they the formerly natural dead bodies come?” 36 Foolish one, what you sow (seed, using analogy of plant life to refer to natural buried body) is not made alive unless it the dead body (seed) dies. 37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body (plant) that shall be, but mere grain (seed)— perhaps wheat or some other grain. 38 But God gives it the dead body (the seed) a body (plant) as He pleases, and to each seed dead body its own body (plant)."
you believe God gives the dead body a body.
Clare73 said:
I have altered yours following to reflect the meaning:
"35 But someone will say, “How are the dead natural dead bodies raised up? And with what kind of body do they the formerly natural dead bodies come?” 36 Foolish one, what you sow (seed, using analogy of plant life to refer to natural buried body) is not made alive unless it the dead body (seed) dies. 37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body (plant) that shall be, but mere grain (seed)— perhaps wheat or some other grain.

38 But God gives it the dead body (the seed) a body (plant) as He pleases, and to each seed dead body its own body (plant)."
Where did I go wrong? Did I not represent what you said, exactly?

"Therefore, you believe dead bodies die, and God raises up dead bodies, and gives the dead body a body."

You are not prosecuting according to the analogy of the seed.
Does God not "give the dead body (of the seed) a body" in transforming the body of the seed into the body of a plant?
Likewise with the natural (physical, mortal, sinful, weak) human body.
The new body God gives the person is the old natural body transformed into the new spiritual (physical, immortal, sinless, powerful) body.

Hebrews 4:12 ...piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Yes, we have life, and yes, we have spirit. Also, joints and marrow, and thoughts, etc.
I think we all know that, but you were to demonstrate what you said, which was The human person is tri-part, body, immortal soul and immortal spirit. (Heb 4:12).

You didn't do that.

We all know that. . .and I am to demonstrate what we all know?

So what other parts of the human being, not included in the tri-part body, soul and spirit, do you find in Heb 4:12?
Or are you unaware that all parts of the body, including bones and internal organs, are the one body, which with the one spirit and the one soul make a tri-part being? Do you have any other parts to add or subtract?
This is wrestling the word of God (2 Pe 3:16), which blinds one to the plain meaning of text.

Yes, immortal means cannot die nor be destroyed.
Since the soul dies, and can be destroyed Ezekiel 18:4; Matthew 10:28, then the soul is not immortal.
Do you accept that?

"Destroy" (olethro, apollumi) in Mt 10:28 do not mean annihilation or loss of being, they mean kill, waste, ruin or loss of well being, as seen in 1 Co 5:5, 10:10, 1 Th 5:3, Heb 11:28, or Mt 2:13 , 8:25, 9:17, 22:7, 26:8, 52, 27:20, Lk 5:37, 15:4, 6, 24, Jn 6:27, 1 Pe 1:7, where several forms of the words are used. When Scripture speaks of destruction in relation to the second death, it is not speaking of annihilation, it is speaking of eternal ruin, eternal loss of well-being.

The remainder of posts #24 and #25 have not been addressed.

 

[CoreyD]

"Therefore, you believe dead bodies die, and God raises up dead bodies, and gives the dead body a body."

You are not prosecuting according to the analogy of the seed.
Does God not "give the dead body (of the seed) a body" in transforming the body of the seed into the body of a plant?

No. Remember Clare, you believe that.
God gives "it" a body. We haven't established that "it" is a dead body.
Are we talking about an analogy though, or the actual subject, which I asked about - namely "it"?

I think we are making progress though. Don't you think so, even if a little bit?
I can speed up the process a bit. Now might be a good time, since we basically hit bottom.

Let me first point out, that this is a case of beliefs versus scriptures, where persons have a belief, and then come up with ideas about the scriptures, to fit those beliefs.
I'll show how that happens, in at least two cases, here.

#1
1 Corinthians 15:42 (New International Version)
So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable;

Please compare that with other translations. Most do not follow the few that use that deception - based on their beliefs, of course.
Consider how the original Greek is rendered, from the Greek word.

The word Paul used - "It" - does not refer to the body at all. "It", is not the body that is sown.
What is "it"?
When we read from the very beginning, which I quoted,

1 Corinthians 15:​

3 Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures...​

4 He was buried... He rose again the third day...​

6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once...​

12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?​

13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen.​

14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.​

15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up - if in fact the dead do not rise. 16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen.​

17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.​

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.​

21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.​

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.​

35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up?"​

and we include what Paul says from verse 35, the answer is clearly not "the natural body"
Verse 35 :

“How are the dead [persons] raised? With what kind of body will they [the person (that will be raised up)] come?”

Verse 36 :

"What you sow [the person (that has died)] does not come to life unless it [that person] dies"

Verse 37 :

"When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else."

Verse 38 :

"But God gives it [the person (that has died, and is raised up)] a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body."

Verse 42 :

"So will it be with the resurrection of the dead [person]. It [the person] is sown perishable, it [the person] is raised imperishable;"

I find this to be so basic, it should move us to ask, why don't people get it as simple as it is?
The reason is beliefs. People don't realize they are believing and supporting, and even promoting the first lie of Satan, told on earth.
In effect, they are siding with Satan, and contradicting God.

I'll prove that these words are true, Clare, by giving you the opportunity to demonstrate otherwise.
Let us take the word soul. What does the Hebrew word nephesh, and Greek word psyche mean?
Definition : self; person; individual; living being...

God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” Genesis 2:16, 17

The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’ ” Genesis 3:2, 3

Satan the Devil - the father of the lie - that old serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die."

According to the Hebrew and Greek words for soul, the soul is yourself; the living person; the individual - You.

Here, you have a fair opportunity, Clare to demonstrate that this is not true.

Do you agree that the soul is yourself; the living person; the individual - You?​

Do you agree that God said to Adam, you yourself; the living person; the individual, will die?​

Do you agree that Satan - the vile liar, said to Eve, you yourself; the living person; the individual, will not die?​

Spoiler

We could render the words of Paul above, this way :
“How are the dead souls raised? With what kind of body will these souls come?”
"What you sow - the soul - does not come to life unless it [that soul] dies"
"When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else."
"But God gives the soul (that has died, and is raised up) a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body."
"So will it be with the resurrection of the dead soul. It - the soul - is sown perishable, it - the soul - is raised imperishable;"

However, this goes against the beliefs of most people - the lie Satan has told, that you - the soul - does not die; the lie, that you - the soul - is immortal.

Likewise with the natural (physical, mortal, sinful, weak) human body.
The new body God gives the person is the old natural body transformed into the new spiritual (physical, immortal, sinless, powerful) body.

This is what you believe, but this is not scripture. You didn't provide any Clare.
Why would God need your old body that rots, and becomes dust?
Genesis 3:19
In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread
Till you return to the ground,
For out of it you were taken;
For dust you are,
And to dust you shall return.”

That does not make any sense Clare. The Devil never makes sense. His lies are delusions, which God lets people believe. 2 Thessalonians 2:
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

In other words, God allows Satan to blind people - put a veil over their eyes. 2 Corinthians 4:
3 if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,
4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

Do you not see how that teaching totally contradicts God's word?
Satan is a debased liar. We really should try to humble ourselves, and accept the truth, so that we can get free from his lies. Satan's lies mean only death for us.

So what other parts of the human being, not included in the tri-part body, soul and spirit, do you find in Heb 4:12?
Or are you unaware that all parts of the body, including bones and internal organs, are the one body, which with the one spirit and the one soul make a tri-part being? Do you have any other parts to add or subtract?
This is wrestling the word of God (2 Pe 3:16), which blinds one to the plain meaning of text.

#2
Jesus said, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’"
Jesus was likely using the words from Deuteronomy 6:5 - You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.

Mark puts them all together - Mark 12:30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment.

So, Clare, you have proven my point, that this is a case of beliefs versus scriptures, where persons have a belief, and then come up with ideas about the scriptures, to fit those beliefs.
Do you really believe in a so-called tri-part body, soul and spirit, from scripture, or what people teach from a pulpit?
Do you consider the breath, or life force, a part? What about your mind - your thoughts? What about your heart, that God sees into (not the physical heart)? What about your strength. Is that a part too?
Would that be quintant-part?

It's beliefs Clare. The pulpit is where most of Satan's lies are spewed from.
We want to closely examine the Bible, but we need help of course. We won't understand it on our own.
I know, it may seem difficult knowing whom to get that help from, but we really only need three things - hunger for the truth, honesty, and humility.
Going to God in prayer, with those three things, he'll send us the help we need. We won't have to go looking.
I didn't have to go looking. People often go looking for what "suits them". That's when Satan catches them.
God knows our heart.

Jesus said, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him" John 6:44

"Destroy" (olethro, apollumi) in Mt 10:28 do not mean annihilation or loss of being, they mean kill, waste, ruin or loss of well being, as seen in 1 Co 5:5, 10:10, 1 Th 5:3, Heb 11:28, or Mt 2:13 , 8:25, 9:17, 22:7, 26:8, 52, 27:20, Lk 5:37, 15:4, 6, 24, Jn 6:27, 1 Pe 1:7, where several forms of the words are used. When Scripture speaks of destruction in relation to the second death, it is not speaking of annihilation, it is speaking of eternal ruin, eternal loss of well-being.

Destroy
verb (used with object)

1. to reduce (an object) to useless fragments, a useless form, or remains, as by rending, burning, or dissolving; injure beyond repair or renewal; demolish; ruin; annihilate.
2. to put an end to; extinguish.

Matthew 10:28
“And you shall not be afraid of those who kill (ἀποκτείνω - apokteinó or apoktennó: to kill) the body that are not able to kill (ἀποκτείνω - apokteinó or apoktennó: to kill) the soul; rather be afraid of him who can destroy (ἀπόλλυμι - apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly) soul and body in Gehenna.”

No. I'm sorry, Clare, but once again, you are demonstrating it's beliefs verses scripture, and presenting ideas about scriptures.
The context of Matthew 10:28, is found there in Matthew 10:16-39. Not in random verses using the word destruction.
Clare, I could pull out so many verses, where the same Greek word refers to literally destroyed, you'd be frightened.

In fact, the Bible has many verses that directly refers to dead souls; souls being put to death by the sword, imprisoned, etc.
Exodus 4:19; Leviticus 19:28; Leviticus 21:1; Psalm 22:20; Psalm 142:7; Job 33:18;
Do you say those scriptures do not refer to dead?

The word Kill/Killing is not the same as destroy, but worth noting, the word used in Matthew 10:28, for destroy is a strong word, meaning destroy utterly.

Is it not because you want to believe that the soul does not die, that you would say destruction of the soul does not mean destroy utterly - annihilate.
Do you believe God can erase you?
Some say God cannot erase you, because you are immortal.
Does that idea not raise alarm bells in you head? Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die."
"Go ahead Eve. Eat. Eat to your heart's delight. You will not surely die."

Do you believe Satan, Clare?
Did you notice how cunning Satan was, in mixing the truth with a lie. Eve did become a god unto herself. Adam did too. Genesis 3:22
Did they both die? What do you think, Clare?

 

[Clare73]

No. Remember Clare, you believe that.
God gives "it" a body. We haven't established that "it" is a dead body.
Are we talking about an analogy though, or the actual subject, which I asked about - namely "it"?

I think we are making progress though. Don't you think so, even if a little bit?
I can speed up the process a bit. Now might be a good time, since we basically hit bottom.

Let me first point out, that this is a case of beliefs versus scriptures, where persons have a belief, and then come up with ideas about the scriptures, to fit those beliefs.

This is a case of the meaning of "person."
A person is body, spirit and soul, with the physical body and the immaterial spirit/soul having different outcomes in physical death.
You think persons means the body only.
This difference causes differences in application of Scripture.

So there is really no basis for agreement.

 

[CoreyD]

This is a case of the meaning of "person."
A person is body, spirit and soul, with the physical body and the immaterial spirit/soul having different outcomes in physical death.

Angels are green men with green hair.

You think persons means the body only.

Did I say that Clare? No, I do not believe the person is the body. The person exist apart from the body.

This difference causes differences in application of Scripture.

So there is really no basis for agreement.

I find that's not the case, but rather beliefs based on ideas contrary to scripture, versus scripture - falsehood versus truth, and that's important.
The teaching that the soul is immortal, and does not die, is not supported in scripture.

Nice talking to you. Perhaps we might meet again on another topic.

 

[Clare73]

The teaching that the soul is immortal, and does not die, is not supported in scripture.

Contraire. . .it is presented in both the OT (Eccl 12:7) and the NT (Lk 23:46, Ac 7:59).

You simply do not believe it.

 

[CoreyD]

Contraire. . .it is presented in both the OT (Eccl 12:7) and the NT (Lk 23:46, Ac 7:59).

You simply do not believe it.

Why did you not answer my questions then, rather than say what you believe and present scriptures that do not support the belief?
Our ideas about scriptures are not scripture Clare. I explained that.

Even you said the soul and spirit are different parts.

 

[CoreyD]

Myth : The spirit is the immortal soul that lives on and does not die.

Truth :
Psalm 104:29, 30

You take away their spirit, they expire And return to their dust.
You send forth Your Spirit*, they are created...

Job 34:14, 15

If He were to gather His spirit* and His breath to Himself,
Humanity would perish together, And mankind would return to dust.

Psalm 146:3, 4

Do not trust in noblemen, In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.
His spirit* departs, he returns to the earth; On that very day his plans perish.

Ecclesiastes 3:19, 20

For the fate of the sons of mankind and the fate of animals is the same. As one dies, so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath[spirit]*, and there is no advantage for mankind over animals, for all is futility.
All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust.

The spirit is God's spirit, which God give to man that man might live.
When man dies, this spirit returns to God, in whose hands is the power to give it, to those worthy of life.
Ecclesiastes 12:7

then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit* will return to God who gave it.

A person's future life prospect is in God's hands.

You send forth Your Spirit, they are created
Psalm 104:29, 30
​

* Spirit : Greek (רוּחַ) ruach: breath, wind, spirit

 

[Clare73]

Contraire. . .the immortal human spirit is presented in both the OT (Eccl 12:7) and the NT (Lk 23:46, Ac 7:59).

You simply do not believe it, nor the Biblical evidence in posts #24 and #25.

Why did you not answer my questions then, rather than say what you believe and present scriptures that do not support the belief?
Our ideas about scriptures are not scripture Clare. I explained that.

Even you said the soul and spirit are different parts.

What questions have I not answered?

Myth : The spirit is the immortal soul that lives on and does not die.

Agreed. . .the immortal human spirit (Eccl 12:7, Lk 23:46, Ac 7:5) is not the soul (Heb 4:12).

 

[CoreyD]

Why did you not answer my questions then, rather than say what you believe and present scriptures that do not support the belief?
Our ideas about scriptures are not scripture Clare. I explained that.

Even you said the soul and spirit are different parts.

What questions have I not answered?

The ones in Post 64.

Myth : The spirit is the immortal soul that lives on and does not die.

Agreed. . .the immortal human spirit (Eccl 12:7, Lk 23:46, Ac 7:5) is not the soul (Heb 4:12).

You agree it's a myth? The soul is not immortal? Alright!

Then you agree with this:
Truth :
Psalm 104:29, 30

You take away their spirit, they expire And return to their dust.
You send forth Your Spirit*, they are created...

Job 34:14, 15

If He were to gather His spirit* and His breath to Himself,
Humanity would perish together, And mankind would return to dust.

Psalm 146:3, 4

Do not trust in noblemen, In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.
His spirit* departs, he returns to the earth; On that very day his plans perish.

Ecclesiastes 3:19, 20

For the fate of the sons of mankind and the fate of animals is the same. As one dies, so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath[spirit]*, and there is no advantage for mankind over animals, for all is futility.
All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust.

The spirit is God's spirit, which God give to man that man might live.
When man dies, this spirit returns to God, in whose hands is the power to give it, to those worthy of life.
Ecclesiastes 12:7

then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit* will return to God who gave it.

A person's future life prospect is in God's hands. Hence, Ecclesiastes 12:7, Luke 23:46, Acts 7:5 does not refer to an immortal human spirit, but the spirit of God - the spirit/breath of life, given to man, that they might live.

You send forth Your Spirit, they are created Psalm 104:29, 30
* Spirit : Greek (רוּחַ) ruach: breath, wind, spirit

So, man is not a spirit walking about in a body then. Do we agree?

 

[Clare73]

Why did you not answer my questions

Answered after the following:

Meanwhile, the Biblical facts remain:
1) the human person is tri-part, composed of body (1Co 6:19), soul and spirit (Heb 4:12), and is incomplete without all three parts (2 Co 5:1-5);
2) some of the same functions are associated with both the soul (Ps 35:9, Mt 26:38) and the spirit (Lk 1:47, Jn 13:21, Ps 42:11 w/1 Kgs 21:5). In the NT, soul and spirit can be distinguished, but are separated only by the word of God (Heb 4:12);
3) the indivisible soul and spirit are immortal (Eccl 12:7, Lk 23:46, Ac 7:59, 2 Co 5:8).

Also see posts #24 and #25 for fuller development of the above.

Do you agree that the soul is yourself; the living person; the individual - You?
Do you agree that God said to Adam, you yourself; the living person; the individual, will die?
Do you agree that Satan - the vile liar, said to Eve, you yourself; the living person; the individual, will not die?

1) I do not agree that the soul is all of the living person. The soul is one part of the tri-part living person.
I agree that in the OT "soul" is often used of individual persons.
2) I agree that God told Adam he would die both spiritually (loss of eternal life within his immortal human spirit) and physically (his body).
3) I agree that Satan denied both the spiritual (loss of eternal life within her immortal spirit) and physical death of Eve

1) Do you really believe in a so-called tri-part body, soul and spirit, from scripture, or what people teach in a pulpit.
2) Do you consider the breath, or life force, a part? What about your mind - your thoughts? What about your heart, that God sees into (not the physical heart)? What about your strength. Is that a part too?
3)Would that be quintant-part?

1) Previously addressed (Heb 4:12).
2) All are located in the brain, which is the physical body. Some of them are also functions of the soul and spirit.
3) The human person is tri-part, body, spirit, soul (Heb 4:12).

1) Is it not because you want to believe that the soul does not die, that you would say destruction of the soul does not mean destroy utterly - annihilate.
2) Do you believe God can erase you?
3) Some say God cannot erase you, because you are immortal.

Does that idea not raise alarm bells in you head? Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die."

1) I have no dog in this hunt. Why would it matter to me? The redeemed live forever with God in heaven. The rest is window dressing.
2) Is he not omnipotent. Can God not do whatever he wills to do?
3) God cannot only "erase" me, he can also "un-erase" me. Where's the problem?

"Go ahead Eve. Eat. Eat to your heart's delight. You will not surely die."
1) Do you believe Satan, Clare?
2) Did you notice how cunning Satan was, in mixing the truth with a lie. Eve did become a god unto herself. Adam did too. Genesis 3:22
3) Did they both die?
4) What do you think, Clare?

1) I give up. What do you think?
2) Or, are you believing a lie?
3) Seems so.
4) I think you should know the answers to these questions and not need to be schooled in them.

In conclusion:
In contradiction to the Biblical testimony above, you think persons means the body only.
This difference causes differences in application of Scripture.

So there is really no basis for agreement.

 

[CoreyD]

I hope you are not tired Clare.
I'm enjoying our conversation.
If you will allow me a few more moments of your time and conversation, I would appreciate that.

Answered after the following:

Meanwhile, the Biblical facts remain:
1) the human person is tri-part, composed of body (1Co 6:19), soul and spirit (Heb 4:12), and is incomplete without all three parts (2 Co 5:1-5);

Body; Soul; Spirit.
I don't have to ask what you believe the body is, but what do you believe the soul, is, and what is the spirit?
Do you believe the soul, and spirit are entities in the body, as in we are spirit beings with a flesh body?
Or, do you believe the spirit is the breath/force of life, and the soul is the life of the person - the self?

2) some of the same functions are associated with both the soul (Ps 35:9, Mt 26:38) and the spirit (Lk 1:47, Jn 13:21, Ps 42:11 w/1 Kgs 21:5). In the NT, soul and spirit

Is this not because the soul is being described as the desire, passion, appetite, emotion; nephesh: a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion; which is one's spirit - disposition?

can be distinguished, but are separated only by the word of God (Heb 4:12);

As can be seen, both words carry extensions.
However, spirit, with the exception of application to one's disposition, is associated with pneuma: wind, spirit. Unless referring to beings ()spirit persons).

3) the indivisible soul and spirit are immortal (Eccl 12:7, Lk 23:46, Ac 7:59, 2 Co 5:8).

The spirit returns to God, who gave it.
Since the spirit is not a living being, referring to God's spirit as immortal, is like referring to age as immortal, since both age and God's spirit are a part of the God of eternity who does not wear out.
Psalm 104:29, 30

You take away their spirit, they expire And return to their dust.
You send forth Your Spirit*, they are created...

Job 34:14, 15

If He were to gather His spirit* and His breath to Himself,
Humanity would perish together, And mankind would return to dust.

This is completely in harmony with
Luke 23:46

Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.” When he had said this, he breathed his last.​

Act 7:59

While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”​

Both Stephen and Jesus understood they were living by means of the breath/spirit God gives to humans.
Job 33:4

For the Spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life.

They both understood how Adam - the first man, came to be a living soul.
Genesis 2:7

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

So, quite expectantly, the both knew that the spirit/breath of life remains with - is in hands of - God, to give. See Acts 17:25, and Isaiah 42:5
All these associate breathing, with the spirit. Hence, Luke 23:46 - When he had said this, he breathed his last.

Why do you refer to the spirit as immortal? What do you think the spirit is, other than the spirit/breath/force of life?

Also see posts #24 and #25 for fuller development of the above.

1) I do not agree that the soul is all of the living person. The soul is one part of the tri-part living person.
I agree that in the OT "soul" is often used of individual persons.

Jesus used the Hebrew scriptures. So did Stephen.
In fact, all of the early Christians did. They all understood, it is part of "all scripture inspired by God" - 2 Timothy 3:16.
So, they knew that the individual person - the soul dies, and is not immortal. Ezekiel 18:4
The question is, Clare, why do you not believe this?

2) I agree that God told Adam he would die both spiritually (loss of eternal life within his immortal human spirit) and physically (his body).

Why do you say, (his body)?
Perhaps it's because you realize it's not what the scriptures say, but what you say.

Just above, you said, "I agree that in the OT "soul" is often used of individual persons."
Genesis is "OT". So, ate you disputing that Genesis 2:7, is not saying that Adam became a living soul/being/person?

3) I agree that Satan denied both the spiritual (loss of eternal life within her immortal spirit) and physical death of Eve

Not her body this time?

4) I think you should know the answers to these questions and not need to be schooled in them.

I'd rather be schooled by you, in what you believe, rather than school you in what you believe.
I think you would appreciate that. Don't you?

In conclusion:
In contradiction to the Biblical testimony above, you think persons means the body only.

No. I don't think person means the body at all. I said that to you before.
Why are you saying I believe this, when I haven't said it?

This difference causes differences in application of Scripture.

So there is really no basis for agreement.

Oh. That's why.
In that case, seeing that I don't believe that, there is a need to reach a conclusion, from scripture, rather than beliefs.

 

[Clare73]

I hope you are not tired Clare.
I'm enjoying our conversation.
If you will allow me a few more moments of your time and conversation, I would appreciate that.

Body; Soul; Spirit.
I don't have to ask what you believe the body is, but what do you believe the soul, is, and what is the spirit?

I don't see a clear presentation in Scripture of their difference, and where the word of God makes an end to teaching, I make an end to learning.
However, the OT often refers to the whole person (body, soul, and immortal spirit) as a "soul."

1) Do you believe the soul, and spirit are entities in the body, as in we are spirit beings with a flesh body?
2) Or, do you believe the spirit is the breath/force of life, and the soul is the life of the person - the self?

I see the immortal spirit and soul as entities with the body, making a tri-part person,
with the immortal human spirit as the source of physical life and the locus of divine eternal life in the regenerated (the immortal human spirit being the subject of both physical and eternal life),
wherein spiritual death is the absence of God's divine eternal life within the immortal human spirit (as in the unregenerated), but not the death of the immortal spirit itself.
We are physical mortal beings with immortal spirits, which immortal spirits without their bodies (tents), for which they were created, are incomplete (2 Co 5:1-8).

2) The "breath/force of life" and the (source of) physical "life of the person" are the same thing; i.e., the immortal human spirit.
The soul may well be the human personality.

Is this not because the soul is being described as the desire, passion, appetite, emotion; nephesh: a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion; which is one's spirit - disposition?
As can be seen, both words carry extensions.
However, spirit, with the exception of application to one's disposition, is associated with pneuma: wind, spirit. Unless referring to beings ()spirit persons).

Spirit = wind, breath/life

The spirit returns to God, who gave it.
Since the spirit is not a living being, referring to God's spirit as immortal, is like referring to age as immortal, since both age and God's spirit are a part of the God of eternity who does not wear out.
Psalm 104:29, 30

Referring to the food products of the earth in the spring time.

Job 34:14, 15

Yes, if God withdrew man's spirit, the source of physical life, mankind would perish.

This is completely in harmony with
Luke 23:46 Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.” When he had said this, he breathed his last.
Act 7:59 While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”
Both Stephen and Jesus understood they were living by means of the breath/spirit God gives to humans. Job 33:4
They both understood how Adam - the first man, came to be a living soul. Genesis 2:7

Where "soul" means the whole (tri-part) person.

So, quite expectantly, the both knew that the spirit/breath of life remains with - is in hands of - God, to give. See Acts 17:25, and Isaiah 42:5
All these associate breathing, with the spirit. Hence, Luke 23:46 - When he had said this, he breathed his last.

Why do you refer to the spirit as immortal? What do you think the spirit is, other than the spirit/breath/force of life?

That has been addressed in post #25, regarding 2 Co 5:1-8.

Jesus used the Hebrew scriptures. So did Stephen.
In fact, all of the early Christians did. They all understood, it is part of "all scripture inspired by God" - 2 Timothy 3:16.
So, they knew that the individual person - the soul dies, and is not immortal. Ezekiel 18:4
The question is, Clare, why do you not believe this?
Why do you say, (his body)?
Perhaps it's because you realize it's not what the scriptures say, but what you say.

I am not speaking of the soul as immortal, just as Paul is not speaking of the soul in 2 Co 5:1-8 in post #25.
I am speaking of the immortal human spirit, as Paul is speaking of the immortal human spirit which lives on after the tent (body) is destroyed

Not her body this time?

Physical death is of the body.

I'd rather be schooled by you, in what you believe, rather than school you in what you believe.
I think you would appreciate that. Don't you?

No. I don't think person means the body at all. I said that to you before.
Why are you saying I believe this, when I haven't said it?

You do not believe the person is tri-part--body (1 Co 6:19), soul and spirit (Heb 4:12).
This difference causes differences in application of Scripture.

So there is really no basis for agreement.