Going "Undercover" as a "Mormon" question for non LDS christians

[mmksparbud]

Yes that honest understanding is my goal, but in my 8 months of being a possible convert, many things were not told to me, like WHO is Jesus, they knew I was a "regular" christian yet never told me, at least for a long time, that the church believes Jesus is a created being, and that came out when i asked after reading a ton.. nor the fact that the chruch believes you can become gods, and so on, yet, in one time I went "undercover" so to speak, that came up in less than 40 minutes, the fact that "what can we do to be better and hopefully be exhalted" came up in under an hour when they though I was simply another mormon but that hasnt simply getting baptized out of circumstances. looking back, the topic was talked while they knew i was a regular christian, but in a much more subtle and roundabout way.

They will only give you "milk" if you acknowledge you are there to learn, they won't discuss what they really believe. It'd been like pulling teeth to get to the core of their believes on here. They get very good at talking "Christianese" to sound mainstream when talking with non-Mormons. As for moralizing about the way you are finding out---I'm really not sure! It is research, and their secretiveness is why there have been those who have gone undercover and even videoed their ceremonies--you can find them on the internet--search--Green Apron ceremony for one, that will probably lead you to others. Every other religion is up front and honest about their believes, they may call you dishonest about what you are doing, but they are dishonest about teaching newbies what they really believe. People have a right to know what they are signing up for.

 

[Undercover_mormon]

They will only give you "milk" if you acknowledge you are there to learn, they won't discuss what they really believe. It'd been like pulling teeth to get to the core of their believes on here. They get very good at talking "Christianese" to sound mainstream when talking with non-Mormons. As for moralizing about the way you are finding out---I'm really not sure! It is research, and their secretiveness is why there have been those who have gone undercover and even videoed their ceremonies--you can find them on the internet--search--Green Apron ceremony for one, that will probably lead you to others. Every other religion is up front and honest about their believes, they may call you dishonest about what you are doing, but they are dishonest about teaching newbies what they really believe. People have a right to know what they are signing up for.

Fudge... gonna turn off the email notification cause it woke me up lol... now that i'm here, i'm going to respond

I agree whole hartedly... that christianese is veery good and those little things can have a ton of meaning.. one they always told me when i started "We are no different, the bible says be therefore perfect as He (Jesus) is perfect" or the "oh no, we believe its salvation only by faith, its exaltation that its by works!" which is kinda ok i guess... except the BoM says that you have to do everything you can and then grace can pick up the rest (2 Nephi 25:23, Moroni 10:32) and they say "no, God is eternal!"
yet they mean "this eternity(?)" and that he's the only God (that they worship) meanwhile the Joseph smith said in one of his semminal sermons: "we have imagined and supposed that God has been God for all of eternity, i've come to refute that idea and take away the veil so that you might see, you have to learn to become gods like all gods have done before you"

also, they never tell you they believe the bible as far as its translated correctly which means "what doesnt contradict the BoM" ... anyways, yet, that kinda of secretiveness and tiptoeing around new guys and outsiders is what pushed me to doing this...

now i'm going to sleep for good, turning off the emails lol

 

[Jane_Doe]

They will only give you "milk" if you acknowledge you are there to learn, they won't discuss what they really believe. It'd been like pulling teeth to get to the core of their believes on here. They get very good at talking "Christianese" to sound mainstream when talking with non-Mormons. As for moralizing about the way you are finding out---I'm really not sure! It is research, and their secretiveness is why there have been those who have gone undercover and even videoed their ceremonies--you can find them on the internet--search--Green Apron ceremony for one, that will probably lead you to others. Every other religion is up front and honest about their believes, they may call you dishonest about what you are doing, but they are dishonest about teaching newbies what they really believe. People have a right to know what they are signing up for.

Oh yeah, all of those "fake" services attended for months, thous "fake" testimonies people tell amongst themselves, the "fake" faith books they only freely given out and encouraged to read a million times. All and elaborate shared just for the one person.

*Jane rolls her eyes*

 

[Undercover_mormon]

Oh yeah, all of those "fake" services attended for months, thous "fake" testimonies people tell amongst themselves, the "fake" faith books they only freely given out and encouraged to read a million times. All and elaborate shared just for the one person.

*Jane rolls her eyes*

Jane... i just said that what changed was my principle of the scriptures class and how my friends talked, which changed as i grew closer to getting baptized and suddenly they were much less "apologetic" and more open... also most of the less mainstram doctrine doesnt come from the Book of Mormon and you know that, but from D&C, Pearl of great price, and the teaching of the living prophets.. its not that everything change, but the people around me noticebly tiptoed around certain topics at first

 

[drstevej]

Mormons believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are 1 God through unity.

Once again Mormonism's Heavenly Mother gets no mention. Wonder why?

 

[Jane_Doe]

I agree whole hartedly... that christianese is veery good and those little things can have a ton of meaning.. one they always told me when i started "We are no different, the bible says be therefore perfect as He (Jesus) is perfect" or the "oh no, we believe its salvation only by faith, its exaltation that its by works!" which is kinda ok i guess... except the BoM says that you have to do everything you can and then grace can pick up the rest (2 Nephi 25:23, Moroni 10:32)

Prezteled falsehood out there about LDS beliefs: that LDS believe your works save you.

Actual LDS belief: Christ does the saving. You can't save yourself. You got to accept Christ. And yes, "accepting" is a verb- an action. That very same chapter that anti-Mormons love to misconstrue (2 Nephi 2) actually points to how we NEED Christ and it's impossible by ourselves. Hence all the preaching of Christ and rejoicing in Christ -- so people may know to where we turn to for remission of sins. Cause even after all you can do, even if you would to bend over backwards trying to be the best you can be, it's Christ that save yourself-- you NEVER cane save yourself. It's impossible. Hence the proclaiming, the rejoceing, the teaching, etc.

and they say "no, God is eternal!"
yet they mean "this eternity(?)" and that he's the only God (that they worship) meanwhile the Joseph smith said in one of his semminal sermons: "we have imagined and supposed that God has been God for all of eternity, i've come to refute that idea and take away the veil so that you might see, you have to learn to become gods like all gods have done before you"

Prezteled falsehood out there about LDS beliefs: that there is any doctrinal statement about that the Father's past. They will conveniently neglect to tell the reader that the King Follett Discourse (quoted above) is not remotely cannon, nor actually talked about in LDS church, any any LDS person is 100% free to think whatever about it (including think it's complete bunk) and be 100% in good standing. I myself don't embrace it (I'm of the don't-know-don't-care camp).

I don't care if anyone believes differently than I do. I totally respect other people's faith actually. But I am also OCD honest and would like the real story told about what I and other people (LDS and non) believe. God is a God of Truth, not pretzeling.

also, they never tell you they believe the bible as far as its translated correctly which means "what doesnt contradict the BoM"

Speaking as an LDS person: I don't find a single contradiction. Not one. Yes, I 100% believe the Bible and love the Bible-- hence why I'm going to put the effort into getting a good translation and understanding that process. I love every word of the Bible.

I readily acknowledge that other people have other interpretations of scripture and hence see different things. If you want me to talk about the variety of beliefs throughout Christiandom and how LDS compare, I'm happy to do so.

 

[mmksparbud]

Oh yeah, all of those "fake" services attended for months, thous "fake" testimonies people tell amongst themselves, the "fake" faith books they only freely given out and encouraged to read a million times. All and elaborate shared just for the one person.

*Jane rolls her eyes*

You guys did that here. At first you guys just wanted to talk about how 'alike" we are--that we actually believe the same things as all Christians--tried desperately to avoid what you truly believe and it took a whole lot of digging and chipping away at all the double talk. With everybody else--ask a question you get a real answer as to what they believe. It is very true that you only take the bible as long as it does not contradict what JS said. But you don't just come out and say that--it was yes, we totally believe in the bible--always leaving that one little most important point. The thing is---it's supposed to be the bible that we test other writings with, If they contradict the bible, then it goes out. No other church "hides" their ceremonies because they are sacred. All services are sacred to their church. If you were up front about everything, nobody would need to do go undercover.

 

[mmksparbud]

Oh-yah--that the other thing--its not "doctrine"---they believe it, the do tech it, but they insist it isn't doctrine and you don't really have to believe what the prophets said if you don't want to. Their prophets are speaking for God--but you don't have to believe them? Without JS approval no one can get into exaltation, but you don't have to believe him???? If you don't have to believe your prophets, than there is no reason to be a Mormon. If JS does not speak for God, or your other prophets, then he is no prophet and no one needs to read a single word of his or any other of those prophets.

(including think it's complete bunk)

Then it's all bunk and is not needed.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Hello, first of all, for all my members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day saints, I want to say, I have NOTHING against y'all as people, I REPEAT, NOTHING. and also sorry for using "Mormon", I know the presidency has said to not use it, i will though, because its much easier to the full name, and also clearer. I wanna say that I'm not hateful in any way, and only want to learn more, and if i tell the local chappel who I truly am, they will inevitably hold stuff back, and not talk as openly, its only natural since i will be seen as an outsider.

To fellow non-mormon christians, i need an opinion:
This is my situation, I spent 8 months in a chappel, almost becoming a mormon before i knew much of the bible. I started reading the bible and came out, now I love researching and learning about apologetics and talk to members of the mormon church (I specially enjoy Jeff Durbin's apologetics videos and I've started doing something similar). However, I would really like to know more about how mormons truly believe, what they struggle with, and what they are confident in.

This is not some diabolical plan to use their weakness against them, but to better understand mormons as to not missrepresent them, and not waste time on trivial issues, really to be able to be on the same page, to understand what they mean when they talk.

Because of this, I have an opportunity, to go to a mormon chappel where no one except one person knows me (and knows nothing of my past or theology) and frankly, sit there, contribute in as much as its according to the bible, and simply, be a discreet mormon. I'm not gonna say i was baptized into the church, or lie really. my story is:

"I spent 8 months in a chappel, moved cities, and now i started comming here, i havent been baptized into the church, but want to learn more."
this is EXACTLY TRUE.

I already went to a meeting, and frankly I was myself, of course biting my lips not to talk about how the bible doesnt support becoming Gods or such, but stil. And when asked about my story, I was complety open and sincere, but vague enough as not to talk of what i currently believe other than "The Gospel of Jesus Christ" I felt good, i'm not being evil, I simply wanna understand better, but from a point of apologetics, and not a possible convert.
I dont think that what i'm doing is wrong, sitting in the back and really not talking much of theology but i still want a (few) second opinion(s) on the matter. and again, i'm simply not flat out open about it, since last time i did (when i was starting to become a convert) they would not tell me some stuff, like how mormons believe you can be Gods, or that they dont fully trust the bible (or in their words, they trust the bible in as much as its translated correctly which seems to be code for "doesnt contradict the BoM)

Anyways, thanks!!

First I believe there are many undercover Mormons who in their heart do not really believe in the teachings of Joseph Smith. They are in fact indoctrinated by family tradition. This is a generational religion with a very strong culture. If a Mormon shines any light on the scriptures, they are forced to reject any contradiction between it and the Book of Mormon. If one decides to leave the church, they are shunned from the entire family. Devastating! So you would not be alone in the pew, there may be many surrounding you and you would not know it. You would be doing the same but for a different reason.
Good luck in your venture

 

[Jane_Doe]

First I believe there are many undercover Mormons who in their heart do not really believe in the teachings of Joseph Smith. They are in fact indoctrinated by family tradition. This is a generational religion with a very strong culture. If a Mormon shines any light on the scriptures, they are forced to reject any contradiction between it and the Book of Mormon. If one decides to leave the church, they are shunned from the entire family. Devastating! So you would not be alone in the pew, there may be many surrounding you and you would not know it. You would be doing the same but for a different reason.
Good luck in your venture

Actuall I very much love all my non-LDS family members and ex-LDS family members too. Included amounts the ex camp is my favorite aunt whom I regularly call for advice and friendship. There's not shunning in the slightest.

Nor do I shun the many non-LDS Christian I know that only go to church because of family pressures, and in their heart they don't really even believe in God. But it would cause much discord in their families if they didn't go, so they go to keep the peace. (Source here: actually being friends with and talking with them about things. I'm not mind reading anything).

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Actuall I very much love all my non-LDS family members and ex-LDS family members too. Included amounts the ex camp is my favorite aunt whom I regularly call for advice and friendship. There's not shunning in the slightest.

Nor do I shun the many non-LDS Christian I know that only go to church because of family pressures, and in their heart they don't really even believe in God. But it would cause much discord in their families if they didn't go, so they go to keep the peace. (Source here: actually being friends with and talking with them about things. I'm not mind reading anything).

You are unique Jane doe.
Blessings

 

[Jane_Doe]

You are unique Jane doe.
Blessings

Not really.

JW are those that shun ex believers. Not LDS.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Not really.

JW are those that shun ex believers. Not LDS.

Are these people lying?

 

[Jane_Doe]

Are these people lying?

Do mainstream Christians shun? I could likewise pull up a video of people who've left mainstream Christianity and felt shunned by their families there.

In both cases, this is not insuitutional shunning. Rather, there are some families wherein things have broken down when people leave the faith, resulting in one or both sides feeling shunned. This is humans being flawed creatures. We all are. And we all need to strive to be better.

 

[friend of]

Why bother going undercover? You already don't believe in Mormonism. This seems rather a pointless endeavor

 

[ImAllLikeOkWaitWat]

It sounds like an exciting thing to do. I don't see a problem with doing this.

 

[RoseCrystal]

Hello, first of all, for all my members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day saints, I want to say, I have NOTHING against y'all as people, I REPEAT, NOTHING. and also sorry for using "Mormon", I know the presidency has said to not use it, i will though, because its much easier to the full name, and also clearer. I wanna say that I'm not hateful in any way, and only want to learn more, and if i tell the local chappel who I truly am, they will inevitably hold stuff back, and not talk as openly, its only natural since i will be seen as an outsider.

To fellow non-mormon christians, i need an opinion:
This is my situation, I spent 8 months in a chappel, almost becoming a mormon before i knew much of the bible. I started reading the bible and came out, now I love researching and learning about apologetics and talk to members of the mormon church (I specially enjoy Jeff Durbin's apologetics videos and I've started doing something similar). However, I would really like to know more about how mormons truly believe, what they struggle with, and what they are confident in.

This is not some diabolical plan to use their weakness against them, but to better understand mormons as to not missrepresent them, and not waste time on trivial issues, really to be able to be on the same page, to understand what they mean when they talk.

Because of this, I have an opportunity, to go to a mormon chappel where no one except one person knows me (and knows nothing of my past or theology) and frankly, sit there, contribute in as much as its according to the bible, and simply, be a discreet mormon. I'm not gonna say i was baptized into the church, or lie really. my story is:

"I spent 8 months in a chappel, moved cities, and now i started comming here, i havent been baptized into the church, but want to learn more."
this is EXACTLY TRUE.

I already went to a meeting, and frankly I was myself, of course biting my lips not to talk about how the bible doesnt support becoming Gods or such, but stil. And when asked about my story, I was complety open and sincere, but vague enough as not to talk of what i currently believe other than "The Gospel of Jesus Christ" I felt good, i'm not being evil, I simply wanna understand better, but from a point of apologetics, and not a possible convert.
I dont think that what i'm doing is wrong, sitting in the back and really not talking much of theology but i still want a (few) second opinion(s) on the matter. and again, i'm simply not flat out open about it, since last time i did (when i was starting to become a convert) they would not tell me some stuff, like how mormons believe you can be Gods, or that they dont fully trust the bible (or in their words, they trust the bible in as much as its translated correctly which seems to be code for "doesnt contradict the BoM)

Anyways, thanks!!

You might want to check out this youtube series by a guy who did the same thing you want to. He's an ex-mormon and I think he's an atheist now, so it would be interesting to see a christian do the same sort of thing.

If you do it, try to document it in some way, even if it is just for yourself, I'm sure they're are a lot of people that would find what you proposing very interesting to hear about/watch. Good luck with it.

THE MAKING OF Behind The Veil 2 [series] - YouTube

 

[Ironhold]

Jane... i just said that what changed was my principle of the scriptures class and how my friends talked, which changed as i grew closer to getting baptized and suddenly they were much less "apologetic" and more open... also most of the less mainstram doctrine doesnt come from the Book of Mormon and you know that, but from D&C, Pearl of great price, and the teaching of the living prophets.. its not that everything change, but the people around me noticebly tiptoed around certain topics at first

What you're describing is simple human awkwardness.

Name a particular subject, and odds are people will keep things short and simple when they first encounter someone who they suspect does not have their level of knowledge on the topic. Once they come to recognize that the person is getting to their level, they'll move the level of conversation back up.

For example, if I was to start talking about things like "speed running", "strafe running", "circle strafing", or anything else of the nature, I'd get blank stares from most folks. If I was to explain that they're terms related to video games, I'd get a little more acceptance. Once I explain each term, they'll understand. Until then, I'd have to stop and break things down.

It's not any sort of effort to conceal anything. It's simply an effort to avoid information overload.


BTW -

Speed Running - attempting to complete a pre-defined segment of a game, if not the game itself, in the fastest time possible, usually under one or more constraints. World records, however informal, are indeed kept for many games, with increasingly tight standards for evidence in establishing that the feat was accomplished.

Strafe Running - odd quirk in the original "Doom" games and those games based on that game engine (re: core programming) wherein a person can run much faster than normal if they have the character running while angled up against a wall. To my knowledge the cause was never determined.

Circle Strafing - In "shooter" games where the character can move sideways, it is literally the process of running circles around a group of opponents while you open fire on them. A classic tactic that goes back to the early "Doom" games (if not earlier), but is now made awkward by the fact that on some Microsoft-based operating systems the combination of keys needed to do so when using a keyboard (as opposed to a joystick or game pad) do odd things like rotate the screen display 90 degrees.

 

[mmksparbud]

What you're describing is simple human awkwardness.

Name a particular subject, and odds are people will keep things short and simple when they first encounter someone who they suspect does not have their level of knowledge on the topic. Once they come to recognize that the person is getting to their level, they'll move the level of conversation back up.

For example, if I was to start talking about things like "speed running", "strafe running", "circle strafing", or anything else of the nature, I'd get blank stares from most folks. If I was to explain that they're terms related to video games, I'd get a little more acceptance. Once I explain each term, they'll understand. Until then, I'd have to stop and break things down.

That approach might work for those who have no idea about Jesus or the bible. which isn't the case with those who already are Christians, and already know the "milk." Certainly wasn't the case with this site.

 

[StephenDiscipleofYHWH]

Hello, first of all, for all my members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day saints, I want to say, I have NOTHING against y'all as people, I REPEAT, NOTHING. and also sorry for using "Mormon", I know the presidency has said to not use it, i will though, because its much easier to the full name, and also clearer. I wanna say that I'm not hateful in any way, and only want to learn more, and if i tell the local chappel who I truly am, they will inevitably hold stuff back, and not talk as openly, its only natural since i will be seen as an outsider.

To fellow non-mormon christians, i need an opinion:
This is my situation, I spent 8 months in a chappel, almost becoming a mormon before i knew much of the bible. I started reading the bible and came out, now I love researching and learning about apologetics and talk to members of the mormon church (I specially enjoy Jeff Durbin's apologetics videos and I've started doing something similar). However, I would really like to know more about how mormons truly believe, what they struggle with, and what they are confident in.

This is not some diabolical plan to use their weakness against them, but to better understand mormons as to not missrepresent them, and not waste time on trivial issues, really to be able to be on the same page, to understand what they mean when they talk.

Because of this, I have an opportunity, to go to a mormon chappel where no one except one person knows me (and knows nothing of my past or theology) and frankly, sit there, contribute in as much as its according to the bible, and simply, be a discreet mormon. I'm not gonna say i was baptized into the church, or lie really. my story is:

"I spent 8 months in a chappel, moved cities, and now i started comming here, i havent been baptized into the church, but want to learn more."
this is EXACTLY TRUE.

I already went to a meeting, and frankly I was myself, of course biting my lips not to talk about how the bible doesnt support becoming Gods or such, but stil. And when asked about my story, I was complety open and sincere, but vague enough as not to talk of what i currently believe other than "The Gospel of Jesus Christ" I felt good, i'm not being evil, I simply wanna understand better, but from a point of apologetics, and not a possible convert.
I dont think that what i'm doing is wrong, sitting in the back and really not talking much of theology but i still want a (few) second opinion(s) on the matter. and again, i'm simply not flat out open about it, since last time i did (when i was starting to become a convert) they would not tell me some stuff, like how mormons believe you can be Gods, or that they dont fully trust the bible (or in their words, they trust the bible in as much as its translated correctly which seems to be code for "doesnt contradict the BoM)

Anyways, thanks!!

Here are a few quotes you might like to read(if you haven't already) concerning Mormon beliefs/doctrine

Mormons Hope to Become Gods of Their Own Worlds


Doctrinal Quotes


Reasoning from the Scriptures with the Mormons