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Featured Going "Undercover" as a "Mormon" question for non LDS christians

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by Undercover_mormon, Dec 4, 2018.

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  1. Undercover_mormon

    Undercover_mormon Thinking of going ""Undercover"" as a Mormon

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    Hello, first of all, for all my members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day saints, I want to say, I have NOTHING against y'all as people, I REPEAT, NOTHING. and also sorry for using "Mormon", I know the presidency has said to not use it, i will though, because its much easier to the full name, and also clearer. I wanna say that I'm not hateful in any way, and only want to learn more, and if i tell the local chappel who I truly am, they will inevitably hold stuff back, and not talk as openly, its only natural since i will be seen as an outsider.

    To fellow non-mormon christians, i need an opinion:
    This is my situation, I spent 8 months in a chappel, almost becoming a mormon before i knew much of the bible. I started reading the bible and came out, now I love researching and learning about apologetics and talk to members of the mormon church (I specially enjoy Jeff Durbin's apologetics videos and I've started doing something similar). However, I would really like to know more about how mormons truly believe, what they struggle with, and what they are confident in.

    This is not some diabolical plan to use their weakness against them, but to better understand mormons as to not missrepresent them, and not waste time on trivial issues, really to be able to be on the same page, to understand what they mean when they talk.

    Because of this, I have an opportunity, to go to a mormon chappel where no one except one person knows me (and knows nothing of my past or theology) and frankly, sit there, contribute in as much as its according to the bible, and simply, be a discreet mormon. I'm not gonna say i was baptized into the church, or lie really. my story is:

    "I spent 8 months in a chappel, moved cities, and now i started comming here, i havent been baptized into the church, but want to learn more."
    this is EXACTLY TRUE.

    I already went to a meeting, and frankly I was myself, of course biting my lips not to talk about how the bible doesnt support becoming Gods or such, but stil. And when asked about my story, I was complety open and sincere, but vague enough as not to talk of what i currently believe other than "The Gospel of Jesus Christ" I felt good, i'm not being evil, I simply wanna understand better, but from a point of apologetics, and not a possible convert.
    I dont think that what i'm doing is wrong, sitting in the back and really not talking much of theology but i still want a (few) second opinion(s) on the matter. and again, i'm simply not flat out open about it, since last time i did (when i was starting to become a convert) they would not tell me some stuff, like how mormons believe you can be Gods, or that they dont fully trust the bible (or in their words, they trust the bible in as much as its translated correctly which seems to be code for "doesnt contradict the BoM)

    Anyways, thanks!!
     
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  2. Blade

    Blade Veteran Supporter

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    For ME.. if they came to my door.. I would not invite them in.. nor bid them Gods speed things like that. To talk about the word..share.. sure.

    Are you Mormon? Is that WHAT you are? You said "going undercover". Being showing something you are not. Would not that be deceiving? Remember people ALL come to Christ by the sweet sweet Holy Spirit. Not us.. we can not save anyone. You said "but vague enough as not to talk of what i currently believe other than" That is one thing GOD has is will never be. We never hide that light. it ALWAYS shines.

    What you said there should answer your question. That fact you had to ask.. shows you. For me.. I could never do this.. it would be dishonest. I cant save anyone. So far WHO is this about? YOU YOU YOU..
     
  3. Jane_Doe

    Jane_Doe Well-Known Member

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    Saying this as a person who regularly attends other churches to better understand what people there believe (and better love them):

    Be honest about who you are and why you're there.

    Going "undercover" is coming in under a lie, and only serves the King of Lies. Rather, a much better approach is to say "I'm here just to learn better what you believe, I don't have any interest in converting" and people say "that's cool, welcome to our services today." It's totally chill. I've done it in dozens of different churches myself.

    PS: Jeff Durbin horribly misconstrues what members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe. It's a horrible way of doing apologics. Much better way: embrace truth and ask people directly what they believe (and honestly want to listen). Even if you think what that person believes is complete hogwash, at least take the time to understand the hogwash correctly and honestly love that person. I applaud you if that honest understanding/love is your goal.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2018
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  4. Undercover_mormon

    Undercover_mormon Thinking of going ""Undercover"" as a Mormon

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    Its true all come to christ by the holy spirit, not us, we dont win souls. BUT WE HAVE TO PREACH AND MEET THEM AND REASON WITH THEM

    Paul didnt just quit on jews, he went to the synagogue, and after a time he stood up and started to reason with them from the scripture. Now, I am no mormon, so I havent been exposed to all things mormon like paul was exposed to all things jewish, so for me to be able to reason and preach to them in an honest and clear way, I must learn about them. For example, when they Say "Jesus Christ" they dont mean the Eternal God, creator of everything, but rather the created being brother of lucifer and us. That is something i learnt by being there back in the day, thus now i can preach to them the difference of their gospel and Jesus' gospel regarding who is he. And I asked not out of guilt, but wanting to see if there's something i missed, a verse that directly says to never do such a thing. Again each time i talk I talk from the bible, never from the book of mormon, so I am communicating the Word of God only and exclusively while there simply not going to a head butting competition ;)

    Still thanks for the input
     
  5. EzekielsWheels

    EzekielsWheels Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Get out of there.
     
  6. Undercover_mormon

    Undercover_mormon Thinking of going ""Undercover"" as a Mormon

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    Yes that honest understanding is my goal, but in my 8 months of being a possible convert, many things were not told to me, like WHO is Jesus, they knew I was a "regular" christian yet never told me, at least for a long time, that the church believes Jesus is a created being, and that came out when i asked after reading a ton.. nor the fact that the chruch believes you can become gods, and so on, yet, in one time I went "undercover" so to speak, that came up in less than 40 minutes, the fact that "what can we do to be better and hopefully be exhalted" came up in under an hour when they though I was simply another mormon but that hasnt simply getting baptized out of circumstances. looking back, the topic was talked while they knew i was a regular christian, but in a much more subtle and roundabout way.
     
  7. Undercover_mormon

    Undercover_mormon Thinking of going ""Undercover"" as a Mormon

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    Out of "not putting myself in danger of converting" or out of "what you are doing is wrong bc of x, y and z" ? if the latter, I wanna know that x, y and z, if the former, dont worry, i already left that church because of scripture, I got my theology and apologetics on why i dont believe pretty sound
     
  8. Ironhold

    Ironhold Member

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    Quoted for truth.

    Unless you have some reason to fear for your physical safety, then why are you choosing to "go undercover" instead of being straight-forward?

    And if you do have such a fear, why go if you can avoid it?

    If you'd talk to people, you'd learn so much more... especially since much of the material put out that's hostile towards the faith is poorly-written at best and outright lies at worst (something even other mainline Christians have called out).

    Right now, all you're doing is creating a situation in which you're going to lose friends fast.
     
  9. Undercover_mormon

    Undercover_mormon Thinking of going ""Undercover"" as a Mormon

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    The reason is i think clear in the original post, when i was there for many many months, many core issues where talked in a round about way, in order to not "spook" me outright and not to seem too far off of mainline christianity, and because I want to learn that, I found myself that I'd either have to spend too much time (university student, so time is a commodity) or attend the church in a way as to avoid that "awareness" and in such a way that they talk openly. And Yes, in one day I've already fallen in love with those guys... but God is prime, and when I'm ready to talk to them, i will, not as a hostile foreigner, but as a loving friend and equal, which is another perk, right now i'm not an anti mormon or an outsider which I can note
     
  10. Jane_Doe

    Jane_Doe Well-Known Member

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    I'm going to be very direct here--

    No LDS person told you "hey I believe that Jesus Christ is a created being" because LDS people don't believe that. Source like Jeff Durbin who tell you such things are bearing false witness, usually through twisting things around pretzel style.

    The Truth: LDS believe that Jesus Christ has always existed and always will.


    Another example of pretzel twisting is anyone who gives yo the impression that LDS people think there's any replacement our Father or Savior going on. If you want me to untwist either of those pretzels and explain actual LDS beliefs, I can.



    Again, my big thing I'm advocating here is honesty: honesty in who you are, who another person is, and what everyone believes.
     
  11. Jane_Doe

    Jane_Doe Well-Known Member

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    Let's think logically: do you really think an entire congregation waltzed around for MONTHS just pretending to believe X when instead they believe Y-- putting on fake services, fake sermons, fake classes, etc, as some elaborate charade simply because you were there?

    Or perhaps people said "I believe X" because they really believe X? That the services you visited were just the services they have. That the lives people were/are living are the lives they really live.
     
  12. Undercover_mormon

    Undercover_mormon Thinking of going ""Undercover"" as a Mormon

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    If I'm not Mistaken, i think its D&C 92 that says that Jesus was the firstborn, yes, the same is said in the bible, however, in the bible, many many many passages show Jesus as God, and the greek word used for first born is something akin to "heir, co-ruler" not firstborn as in english, and says "from the biginning was with God" in john 1, where it that "beginning" means "as "far back as time goes", whereas while talking to many mormons, at least in my country, most have reflected that Jesus was in the begging of the creation of the earth, but that the Father pre-existed Jesus, since Him (Elohim) created Jesus when Elohim was exhalted.

    anyways, sorry, I had to clarify that I do not have that from Jeff, but rather from talking and the BoM, pearl of great price and D&C.

    Anyways, even if I'm completely wrong about that, exaltation is a big big point that I was let in after close to 7 months and when i started asking, whereas now it came up in 40 minutes and straight with no shady language, which hadnt been the case previously.

    And for sure! I want to learn, thats the entire reason why i'm doing this, unless of course some one gives me a pov that changes my mind! any ways, thanks for the response!
     
  13. Undercover_mormon

    Undercover_mormon Thinking of going ""Undercover"" as a Mormon

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    no, I'm not saying the whole chappel changed, but my "principles of the scriptures" class and my mormon friends, talked about the more "controversial" topics in a round about way. I know this since at the end of my time therem they started talking much more openly, and i noted that, and upon one day in another chappel, the difference is astonishing.

    for example, instead of saying during a lesson "what can we do to reach exaltation" or smth like that, they'd say, "what can we do to reach the celestial kingdom" or round about ways of talking of stuff.

    During the main sermons, yes, they would have normal sermons, but whever seemed different from mainline christianity and i'd ask, at first friends would use that round about way of speaking and made it seem less "odd"

    Is not that an entire congregation waltzed, but that my class and friends spoke differntly...


    EDIT: Note, I knew very little about the bible since i was not born nor raised, so many things that were very different, really didnt catch my eye, but rather, exaltation, who was Jesus, and so on did, so a sermon that a regular christian would find to be 100% heresy, for me it would seem pretty ok... look, i was looking for moroni and 2 nephi in my bible so go figure...
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2018
  14. Jane_Doe

    Jane_Doe Well-Known Member

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    "Firstborn" is a title, meaning "heir, co-ruler" etc (exactly as you said). And yes Firstborn is one of Jesus's many titles. LDS 100% believe this, and 100% believe in Christ's divinity.
     
  15. Undercover_mormon

    Undercover_mormon Thinking of going ""Undercover"" as a Mormon

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    Is Christ one with God? one as one entity? not one in purpose, but one in their "being"? or are they separate? do you believe the Father, the Son and the Holy spirit to be one being simply with different persons (just like a body has different parts even when being the same body) or that they are separate beings with the same purpose? because every LDS with whom i've talked in the end of my 8 months has echoed that they are one in purspose, not in entity.

    That right there is a difference. If Jesus is not the same God in entity than the father, and if Jesus is the brother of Lucifer and us, then we are speaking of different Jesus. My Jesus, or how i understand scripture, Jesus is one with God, is fully God, the same God in being and entity as the Father. they are co-eternal, neither existed before the other, and none is the brother of lucifer.

    Anyways, i truly dont wanna get into in an apologetics or theology debate, feel free to respond, but I wont reply theology, its not the point of this thread, but thanks for sharing!!!
     
  16. Jane_Doe

    Jane_Doe Well-Known Member

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    (Answering with big picture, then I'll come back for specific questions)

    Athanasian Christians and members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints both believe:
    The Father is 100% divine.
    The Son of God, Jesus Christ is 100% divine.
    The Holy Spirit is 100% divine.
    The Father, Son, and Spirit are all without beginning nor end.
    The Father is not the Son, nor vice verse. Neither of them are the Spirit.
    The Father, Son, and Spirit together are 1 God.

    The difference comes in:
    Mormons believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are 1 God through unity.
    Athanasian Christians believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are 1 God through consubstantiation.

    100%.
    LDS do not embrace the Athanasian Creed and it's "person" vs "being" statements.
    The Father, Son, and Spirit are three different persons in ONE God through unity.
    Christ is God and 100% divine not because of a substance He's made of (see the Athanasian Creed), but because of WHO He is. He's is the Perfect Son. He has always followed the Father. He has ever faltered. He is infinitely just and merciful. And so many more things.

    You, me, and everyone else: we're none of those things. Not even in the same galaxy.
     
  17. Undercover_mormon

    Undercover_mormon Thinking of going ""Undercover"" as a Mormon

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    Thanks gonna keep it mind as I said, got that notion from talking to friends and for example this resource: God, Godhead

    anyways, regarding my OP, I still stand, I have seen the difference between comming in as an outsider or comming in not as such, so I still find it easier to learn raw from y'all that way, after all, I want to do exactly that, learn like a member would.
    of course I wont be baptized, and even less do what's required to enter my local temple so many many many things wont be to my reach, but still, I find it easier to learn and to speak what God speaks through his undying revelation which is his word alone (of course you wont agree on that) this way. I'm going to bed now, it was a refreshing talk.

    Good night, and might the one and only God, YHWH, in its 3 persons, The Father, The Son and The holy spirit, might bless you!
     
  18. Jane_Doe

    Jane_Doe Well-Known Member

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    I like your dedication to getting things straight and being honest. As I said earlier, I likewise like understanding what people believe and visiting other churches, even with zero interest in conversion. Feel free to contact me whenever, on the public board or via PM.

    May God ever be with you :)
     
  19. Undercover_mormon

    Undercover_mormon Thinking of going ""Undercover"" as a Mormon

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    Dont know how to PM!
    but simply wanted to say that its not by my own merit that I'm driven to understand, but thanks to the Holy spirit,
    1 Peter 3:15-16
    ... but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect...

    This incursion I do to be able to fullfill what God commanded here.. I cannot do apologetics, I cannot defend the faith honestly, if first i dont understand the other side honestly too.
     
  20. Jane_Doe

    Jane_Doe Well-Known Member

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    The best defense of faith is not found in academic learning of any belief system (your or others), but in honest love of Christ and the other person. Charity and hope never fail.

    Watching you here, you're doing a pretty good job of things thus far.
     
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