Going "Undercover" as a "Mormon" question for non LDS christians

[Undercover_mormon]

Pretty confusing to me. What is it you want?
If you believe in the truth of the gospel, speak up and be bold. Don't be shy about offending people as long as you do it out of Love. The gospel is offensive to men but is the power of salvation.

sorry, it is kind of a complicated situation I'm planning to basically attend mormon church and reunions and simply play the part of a quiet mormon-to-be and frankly be honest to a point like "yeah, i spent 8 months back in 2017 in a chappen in x city, then i moved and now i'm here again to learn more" which is all true, but not tell them that i want to learn not to convert, but rather understand mormonism in order to be able to preach to them the true gospel more effectively.

Also, once i'm ready, talk to the friends that i will inevitably make there, about the true gospel, not as an outsider but as a brother and equal

like someone pointed out.. just like samuel brought the heifer to anoint David, but told everyone it was to perform a sacrifice.

why am i not simply open about not being a convert?
well, i find mormons are very good at speaking in a round about way to make everything seem more mainstram christian, and last time they took more than 6 months to start telling me about Heavenly Mother, Who they believe Jesus to truly be... basically they waited untill i was with almost one foot in the baptismal waters to tell me the more "exotic" beliefs

 

[Loyce KG]

sorry, it is kind of a complicated situation I'm planning to basically attend mormon church and reunions and simply play the part of a quiet mormon-to-be and frankly be honest to a point like "yeah, i spent 8 months back in 2017 in a chappen in x city, then i moved and now i'm here again to learn more" which is all true, but not tell them that i want to learn not to convert, but rather understand mormonism in order to be able to preach to them the true gospel more effectively.

Also, once i'm ready, talk to the friends that i will inevitably make there, about the true gospel, not as an outsider but as a brother and equal

like someone pointed out.. just like samuel brought the heifer to anoint David, but told everyone it was to perform a sacrifice.

why am i not simply open about not being a convert?
well, i find mormons are very good at speaking in a round about way to make everything seem more mainstram christian, and last time they took more than 6 months to start telling me about Heavenly Mother, Who they believe Jesus to truly be... basically they waited untill i was with almost one foot in the baptismal waters to tell me the more "exotic" beliefs

Good luck. I hope you are firmly rooted in the faith otherwise you may fall to their side.

 

[Undercover_mormon]

Good luck. I hope you are firmly rooted in the faith otherwise you may fall to their side.

Thanks! before knowing much about the bible and beeing a new christian i attended 8 months of mormon chappel, even thought of getting re baptized (I was baptized in a baptist church a couple of years before that), but i started reading the bible and God showed me how their gospel is false, and now i do plenty of apologetics and evangelizing outside chappels.
I'm planning to do this so i can better understand them and be even more effective at preaching to them.

anyways, thanks!!

 

[Jane_Doe]

Jane, if Joseph smith was a prophet, every single piece of teaching must be cannon, just like the bible says, Test prophets by their words, if they say anything to lead you to a different God, they are not real, if they say anything that doesnt come to pass, they are not real.

Sorry Jane, but 2 nephi is veery clear, and so is Moroni. You might believe different, but the BoM and 99% of every lds that i've talked with reflect the "It is grace that saves you, but only if you also do everything to better yourself" thats salvation by works. Like paul says if you add one work to grace, then its not grace, and you are bound to keep the whole law.

Know what the church of galatia was going through? well, they were saying it was grace alone... + circumsition and paul refuted them openly and harshly even going as far as saying "I wish they would emmasculate themselves!"

Becoming Like God your own church confirms that God the Father was a human before, citing Joseph's discurses and such.

Again, a prophet is a prophet 24/7, not from 9 to 5, Remember Ezekiel? God dictated even in which positions to put himself, how to cook his meals, Remember Moses? God dictated even how to talk to a rock.

Nonsense.

Read your Bible and see how often the men of God mess up in there. A man of God is still a man.

LDS do not idolize men or pretending that there was ever more than one perfect person to walk this Earth (Christ Himself).

 

[Jane_Doe]

Brother... I could be mistaken but saying "Celestial kingdom" isnt easier for a newbie than "Becoming like God/exaltation" but it is more "Christanese" ie it sounds more like talking about heaven.

for 6 months they would talk in a round about way, missionaires, everyone who knew me and talked to me, they'd say things like "oh yes, I 100% believe the bible" yet when i started to question they say that it was translated incorrectly.. so they didnt trust 100% ...
or else they'd talk about the spirit world not as a second chance, but as it was heaven of sorts, and even them they avoided it...

after those first 6 months, they started telling me doctrine quite openly, and explaining me everything that came up, like "Oh, we believe that all souls are created in the pre existance by our heavenly father and heavenly mother!" and thats when I started to note the differences, i didnt know much of mainline christianity, but i knew there was no heavenly mother.

and yes, maybe it was a coincidence... but wouldnt it be easier to explain a newcommer everything in simple terms from the get go? like "you see, unlike most christians, we believe Jesus to be a different being from the Father, but they are one in the Godhead through purpose, unlike trinitarians" or "you see, we believe that upon death, according to your actions on earth, there are 3 levels of heaven, the highest one you dwell with God and achieve Godhood"

of course, if they had started off with that, i would have left in a split second.

There's a difference between rejecting the Bible and rejecting post-Biblical Creeds.

As I said earlier, I love every single word of the Bible. Though of course I may have different interpretation of different passages.

I reject the Creeds because they are not scripture by anyone's account. LDS make no secret of that.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Jane.. i've been never lied in any of the baptist churches i've been, nor in the lutheran, or methodist or even catholic... everyone actually was super quick to point out the exact theological differences.

When I came to a baptist church as a methodist, they said "hey welcome! do you know about us? no? ok, see, we trust only in the bible, no traditions, also, we do things like the bible says and thats it. We believe baptism by immersion and the believer baptism not like methodists who also do infant baptism..." and so on.
for mormons, it took 6 months for anyone to flat out tell me about heavenly mother... and hey, I learned about the baptism for the dead only when i asked for a straight answer and thats basically when i left.. so 8 months later (mind you, I had many times asked for differences or about practices that differ from mainline christianity and former regular christians said nothing about it)

Regarding ex members... you could almost say i am one.. i was close to baptism and i left... i experienced shunning, slander (my gf said i cheated for example, whereas she actually did cheat, i know from a close friend also mormon who later denied it when i left) i experienced that secrecy...

Baptism for the dead is a topic covered very earlier on in teaching, usually by the 3rd missionary lesson. Likewise is rejection of the Creeds.

Heavenly Mother isn't talked about much because just no much is known. Nothing to do with putting on a charade.

 

[drstevej]

Heavenly Mother isn't talked about much because just no much is known. Nothing to do with putting on a charade.

Is she worshipped?

 

[Shawn Stuart]

We can answer any questions you have concerning Mormonism here; there is no need to go under cover.

I recommend you read the Gospel Principals manual. That will help you gain a correct understanding of the LDS faith. It is available on the LDS.org website or you can ask the missionaries for a hard copy.

 

[Ironhold]

Here are a few quotes you might like to read(if you haven't already) concerning Mormon beliefs/doctrine

Mormons Hope to Become Gods of Their Own Worlds

Nobody who knows about the Tanners' tactics trusts anything they have to say.

They've been caught doctoring citations so many times it's not even funny, and their willingness to violate the law isn't either.

 

[Ironhold]

Jane, if Joseph smith was a prophet, every single piece of teaching must be cannon,

The church has a process for determining what is and isn't official, as it recognizes that people have opinions of their own.

Sorry Jane, but 2 nephi is veery clear, and so is Moroni. You might believe different, but the BoM and 99% of every lds that i've talked with reflect the "It is grace that saves you, but only if you also do everything to better yourself" thats salvation by works. Like paul says if you add one work to grace, then its not grace, and you are bound to keep the whole law.

No, it's in keeping with James 2, which notes that faith without the action to back it up is empty.

 

[Ironhold]

except... a non christian can attend a wedding and be front and center with his loved ones... not the same with mormons and the temple.

With as small as the sealing rooms are, even many people who are members can't be crammed in.

look, when i left mormonism or at least my path to conversion, my very "best friends" started ignoring me, my GF at the time gave me an ultimatum "Convert, or by the end of the year, when i leave for the mission, we are going to break up" the chappen that I had once found filled with lovely people, now was filled of people who all turned against me... and all i did was "Hey guys, I love y'all but i simply cant reconcile the bible and your techings, i'm gonna go home and maybe some day, if i can, return, otherwise this is my last day"

This... doesn't sound right.

Can you go into any more details as to what took place?

 

[Undercover_mormon]

Baptism for the dead is a topic covered very earlier on in teaching, usually by the 3rd missionary lesson. Likewise is rejection of the Creeds.

Heavenly Mother isn't talked about much because just no much is known. Nothing to do with putting on a charade.

Well, i didnt have missionary lessons, but i explicity asked many times "What are the biggest differences between this church and a regular evangelical church" and missionaries and friends never thought of saying "we believe in the preexistance, heavely mother, we can become gods, we belive we can do ordinances in behalf of the dead" and so much more... I'd say those are huuuge differences, yet it seemed like i had to torture them to pry that off of them.

Like yes i was quickly told about the first vision, and supposedly how the gospel was lost and stuff like that, but those differences.. oh no

 

[Ironhold]

and yes, maybe it was a coincidence... but wouldnt it be easier to explain a newcommer everything in simple terms from the get go?

If I was to take the material I was given for that one 500-level finance course and drop it in the lap of someone who had never had a finance class before, would I be able to reasonably expect that they could complete everything I personally would have been required to do?

Ask yourself that, and you'll have your answer.

 

[Ironhold]

Rather, i think my "mission" to keep the "undercover" theme going, is to learn, understand, and comprehend, not an outsider looking in, but rather as an insider.

If your mission is based in dishonesty, are you truly doing God's work?

I want to understand mormons down to the core, what do they EXACTLY believe, what is the things they rely on, and what things they dont worry about. That way, next time that I'm in the street preaching outside a temple or another chappel, I will know what i'm talking about.

Which is why you should ask them directly, not read canned anti-Mormon hate literature.

as i know it wouldnt be quite the same if i was open and said "hey guys, i'm christian looking to learn more about y'all to later go and preach how this is a false gospel more accurately" so i feel its ok, I'm not mounting a hige lie, saying i was born a mormon and that i've been there my whole life or smth..

Do you have any idea how insulting that statement is?

 

[Ironhold]

for mormons, it took 6 months for

Did you read ahead in any of the material you were given, or even the church website?

 

[Ironhold]

as this is what God told him to do.

...And that's the operative word.

 

[Ironhold]

Well, i didnt have missionary lessons,

Major red flag...

but i explicity asked many times "What are the biggest differences between this church and a regular evangelical church"

Also doesn't sound right...

 

[Undercover_mormon]

The church has a process for determining what is and isn't official, as it recognizes that people have opinions of their own.



No, it's in keeping with James 2, which notes that faith without the action to back it up is empty.

First, James 2 addresses how we know we have true living faith, not what to do to be saved. James 2 states that the true faith, is that which drives you to act, however, we know from ephesians 2:8-9 that faith alone saves, even if you cant do good deeds or if you for some reason dont. What james puts in judgement is those christians who say they believe, yet they keep the drugs, or the drunkeness, they keep the premarital sex, they keep sinning with no repentance.

Regarding your other post, deuteronomy 18:22 leaves very clear that if a prophet prophecies and it doesnt come to pass, he is a phony, and in 13:2 states that if a prophet arises and makes signs, or whatever, and they lead you after a differnt God from the one in scripture, they are phonies too

Lds vs any other christian God
Any other: Eternal, always God, no beggining ever, no end ever, alone, doesnt know of any other gods, one God made of 3 persons
LDS: had a beggining, became God, there are a multitude of gods

thats a strange God right there


if a prophet is true, they should speak in place of God, and any teachings are of God... you dont Have ezekiel teaching false doctrine, or Moses talking about you becoming gods... they lived and taught according to God. Even if a prophet has an opinion (like jonah) this are clearly stated as such and not taught as doctrine.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Hello, first of all, for all my members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day saints, I want to say, I have NOTHING against y'all as people, I REPEAT, NOTHING. and also sorry for using "Mormon", I know the presidency has said to not use it, i will though, because its much easier to the full name, and also clearer. I wanna say that I'm not hateful in any way, and only want to learn more, and if i tell the local chappel who I truly am, they will inevitably hold stuff back, and not talk as openly, its only natural since i will be seen as an outsider.

To fellow non-mormon christians, i need an opinion:
This is my situation, I spent 8 months in a chappel, almost becoming a mormon before i knew much of the bible. I started reading the bible and came out, now I love researching and learning about apologetics and talk to members of the mormon church (I specially enjoy Jeff Durbin's apologetics videos and I've started doing something similar). However, I would really like to know more about how mormons truly believe, what they struggle with, and what they are confident in.

This is not some diabolical plan to use their weakness against them, but to better understand mormons as to not missrepresent them, and not waste time on trivial issues, really to be able to be on the same page, to understand what they mean when they talk.

Because of this, I have an opportunity, to go to a mormon chappel where no one except one person knows me (and knows nothing of my past or theology) and frankly, sit there, contribute in as much as its according to the bible, and simply, be a discreet mormon. I'm not gonna say i was baptized into the church, or lie really. my story is:

"I spent 8 months in a chappel, moved cities, and now i started comming here, i havent been baptized into the church, but want to learn more."
this is EXACTLY TRUE.

I already went to a meeting, and frankly I was myself, of course biting my lips not to talk about how the bible doesnt support becoming Gods or such, but stil. And when asked about my story, I was complety open and sincere, but vague enough as not to talk of what i currently believe other than "The Gospel of Jesus Christ" I felt good, i'm not being evil, I simply wanna understand better, but from a point of apologetics, and not a possible convert.
I dont think that what i'm doing is wrong, sitting in the back and really not talking much of theology but i still want a (few) second opinion(s) on the matter. and again, i'm simply not flat out open about it, since last time i did (when i was starting to become a convert) they would not tell me some stuff, like how mormons believe you can be Gods, or that they dont fully trust the bible (or in their words, they trust the bible in as much as its translated correctly which seems to be code for "doesnt contradict the BoM)

Anyways, thanks!!

I understand your reasons my friend but I’m my opinion deception should just be avoided. Are the answers to your question about their beliefs worth sinning? You basically fell to temptation because of your curiosity of a false religion. What did you gain?

 

[Undercover_mormon]

With as small as the sealing rooms are, even many people who are members can't be crammed in.



This... doesn't sound right.

Can you go into any more details as to what took place?

its not a matter of being crammed or not, its a matter of accesibility. if the father of a daughter leaves the church, he cant be present at the sealing.

regarding my leaving, I started to question... like bringing up Isaiah 43:10.. politely or John 1:1 also ephesians 2:8 mind you, i didnt know much of mainstream christianity, so i was honestly trying to puzzle everything together.... and each time, the response was dodgy or flat out "The bible has been translated so many times that many nuances have been lost" which is all fine and dandy except that we do have the documents in the original language and pretty early at that.. so its not like it passed from hebrew to greek, to german, to french, to english to spanish so thats a bunch of bs...

Also, i started to question why is joseph smith was a prophet if he said he wouldnt be killed before finishing his work, and he was killed before finishing his bible "translation" also the fact that the manuscript where the book of abraham was taken is actually a pagan text, as discovered when the church sent the original papyrus to an egyptologist.

and with this question never answered in its entirety. one day, i simply told everyone "Hey, Lovely to have spent this months together, but i have this this and this problems, and i cant reconcile them, I know the workd of God is the bible, but the BoM and the church contradicts it, so I'll have to leave, maybe at some time i'll return, but i'm not sure of that" or something of the sort, and peacfully said goodbye to all and left, a week later my gf gave me an ultimatum after a youth camp, friends slowly started ignoring me, and in less than 2 weeks, I had no gf, and my friends and missionaries wouldnt respond.. I learned from a friend that my GF gave rumors of me cheating before giving me the ultimatum, and when my friend caught wind that i hadf left, she started denying it close to 3 weeks after my departure.


Regarding my "differences" question they would tell me "oh, we have temples, we believe that hevenly father and Jesus appeared to Jospeh smith and told him he had a revelation" they told me that another big difference is that "We belive that Jesus came to the americas, and visited this people, who are descendants of Israel, also we dont belive in heven and hell, but rather 3 levels of heaven so to speak"

with time their response kept becoming "fuller" to a point where they were saying that yes, you can become like God, God wasnt eternal and such