Going to holistic/Naturopath doctor....is it wrong?

[Desk trauma]

I was unaware I was speaking to a non-believer, I apologize. In that case, nothing I can say on the subject of laying of hands will mean anything to you.

A study showing it efficacy would mean something to me, feel free to link to one.

 

[meredithraven]

A study showing it efficacy would mean something to me, feel free to link to one.

Anyone feel free to provide me with a study if I am wrong, but I am almost positive there is not one, because laying of the hands is not scientific, but holy.

 

[Desk trauma]

Anyone feel free to provide me with a study if I am wrong, but I am almost positive there is not one, because laying of the hands is not scientific, but holy.

If your favored magic ritual had the effects that you claim it does, healing of illness, that is a testable claim which can be easily evaluated in a study.

 

[meredithraven]

If your favored magic ritual had the effects that you claim it does, healing of illness, that is a testable claim which can be easily evaluated in a study.

It requires full faith, no a shred of doubt, both in Christ and that the laying of hands will work. That is hard to find and nearly impossible to test whether or not one possesses those traits, even if THEY believe they do.

 

[Desk trauma]

It requires full faith, no a shred of doubt, both in Christ and that the laying of hands will work. That is hard to find and nearly impossible to test whether or not one possesses those traits, even if THEY believe they do.

The fact remains that if your magic had the effect that you claim it does it could be tested and shown to be effective, thus far it has not been.

 

[mmksparbud]

My sister-in-law was having respiratory problems--so bad that she ended up in the hospital. They could not find out what was wrong and they pump0ed her up with antibiotics--she did have a fever with all this. It would not go away, this went on for about 4 mths--she get fed up and went to a holistic dr--I don't know what he did, but within a few days, she was back to normal.

to say that holistic medicine is satanic, quackery is ridiculous. It is using natural substances to cure illness. Regular dr's always poo-poo this, as they poo-poo chiropracters, and acupuncture. Holistic medicine is more in line with the bible than medicine that pumps you full of dangerous drugs. It was what the people always used in the past. Herbs are God's gifts to us and will be in heaven--"the leaves are for the healing of the nations"--refering to the tree of life.
I know that acupuncture works--my niece would take her Rottweiller to one for his bad hip every week. You could see the difference, he could barely walk on the way to him, walking much better after the tx's--animals don't lie and can't be duped by any placebo effect. Holistic medicine has worked on animals, too.

 

[Tomk80]

When is the last time you saw a PSA stating "If you or a loved one were prescribed Fakenamezione and had kidney failure, artery damage, etc., then call now. New studies on this drug has been shown to cause (insert list of problems here)."
If you watch TV a few times a week, I'm sure you've seen these commercials at least once a week. Modern medicine is literally allowing combinations of chemicals into your body, that can cause problems. Heck, I'll give you an example out of my medicine cabinet...Zoloft may increase suicidal thoughts. These chemicals can backfire on us. I took Ritalin for my ADHD about a year ago and it literally made me feel insane, and so I stopped taking it, and crashed: I couldn't get out of bed for a week, I just laid there sobbing.

Yes, because these medicines actually do something, unlike homeopathy. With any medicine, be it from a naturopath or an actual doctor, you put something in your body which potentially has (bad) side effects (no, natural medicines are not exempt from this). That is because you either have to kill germs or viruses or have to intervene in processes in your body (or brain, in the case of Zoloft). This holds true regardless of which form of actual medicine you take, regardless of whether it is natural or not.

I still use modern medicine because I have found medicines that work for me, and because I live under my parents roof, but I think that sometimes Western modern medicine can do more harm than good.

Sometimes it can. Of course. A doctor will always have to make a decision, sometimes a difficult one, on whether or not he has to put something in your body that cures what is affecting you, and if so, how much. Sometimes it is hard to determine whether we should treat or not, sometimes it is hard to determine which medicines are needed and sometimes it is hard to determine the dosage. This is because these medicines actually do something.

A homeopath he claims that his medicines will do anything for you, is lying. A naturopath he claims that his medicines are not liable to the same possible health effects, is lying.

 

[Desk trauma]

to say that holistic medicine is satanic, quackery is ridiculous. It is using natural substances to cure illness.

A substance being natural has no bearing on if it is healthy or if it is something that you should ingest. Should laws restricting the use of asbestos be suspended due to it being a naturally occurring substance?

Regular dr's always poo-poo this, as they poo-poo chiropracters, and acupuncture.

As they should because both are not based in reality and have not been proven effective.

Holistic medicine is more in line with the bible than medicine that pumps you full of dangerous drugs.

This much I agree with you on, quack "natural medicine" would be very much in line with the primitive understanding of the human body and illness that the authors of the bible had

It was what the people always used in the past.

How long a practice has been around has no bearing on how effective it is, only testable results.

I know that acupuncture works--my niece would take her Rottweiller to one for his bad hip every week. You could see the difference, he could barely walk on the way to him, walking much better after the tx's--animals don't lie and can't be duped by any placebo effect. Holistic medicine has worked on animals, too.

The plural of anecdote is not evidence, actual studies of acupuncture have not proven it effective.

 

[Gadarene]

In my humble opinion, if you want to try holistic treatment, you should see both the holistic doctor, and the modern doctor, for a second opinion.

You can - that has no effect on the science (or lack thereof) though.

I completely agree with what you are saying about the drug companies though, and I think that is part of what turns me off to modern medicine.

Why? Who's to say that homeopathy isn't as dishonest? The usual arguments have something to do with money-making, but homeopathy is hardly a small business either.

But hey, some people are cured by medicine, some by homeopathy, and some by laying of the hands. Who's to say what will work for you?

Statistics -if performed correctly - gives a good indication of what will work for the greatest number of people.

That's the entire point of a clinical trial.

You can't countermand that with a sample size of one. Science is not "democratic", in that regard.

I personally have never tried holistic medicine, but have an open mind about it.

Pointing out that holistic medicine rarely delivers on what it claims and that that is backed up by scientific evidence does not constitute having a closed mind, however.

 

[Gadarene]

A study showing it efficacy would mean something to me, feel free to link to one.

Anyone feel free to provide me with a study if I am wrong, but I am almost positive there is not one, because laying of the hands is not scientific, but holy.

If your favored magic ritual had the effects that you claim it does, healing of illness, that is a testable claim which can be easily evaluated in a study.

It requires full faith, no a shred of doubt, both in Christ and that the laying of hands will work. That is hard to find and nearly impossible to test whether or not one possesses those traits, even if THEY believe they do.

This is one of the few Christian claims that actually IS testable, and I find it interesting that even then it comes up short.

 

[Tomk80]

My sister-in-law was having respiratory problems--so bad that she ended up in the hospital. They could not find out what was wrong and they pump0ed her up with antibiotics--she did have a fever with all this. It would not go away, this went on for about 4 mths--she get fed up and went to a holistic dr--I don't know what he did, but within a few days, she was back to normal.

So she got treatment, afterwards went to a holistic doctor and got better. Might I suggest that this might have had to do with the original treatment and not the holistic doctor?

to say that holistic medicine is satanic, quackery is ridiculous. It is using natural substances to cure illness. Regular dr's always poo-poo this, as they poo-poo chiropracters, and acupuncture. Holistic medicine is more in line with the bible than medicine that pumps you full of dangerous drugs. It was what the people always used in the past. Herbs are God's gifts to us and will be in heaven--"the leaves are for the healing of the nations"--refering to the tree of life.

Natural substances are used in medicines. It's called pharmacognosy. The reason we don't use the plants, but rather isolate the working substances from the plants, is because in using the plants the dosages cannot be accurately determined, leading to potential under- or overdosing.

Chiropractics are rightfully poopoo'd because we know from research that regular manual therapy works just as well, but is less dangerous. Furthermore, some of the claims of chiropractics are downright silly (that they can cure asthma for example).

Same for acupuncture. We know from the studies done that it doesn't matter where you put the needles, it doesn't matter whether the needles actually pierce the skin and it doesn't even matter whether you use needles at all. Toothpicks work just as well. Fortunately, other than chiropractics, acupuncture at least doesn't cause deaths. At worst, it causes easily treated skin infections.

I know that acupuncture works--my niece would take her Rottweiller to one for his bad hip every week. You could see the difference, he could barely walk on the way to him, walking much better after the tx's--animals don't lie and can't be duped by any placebo effect. Holistic medicine has worked on animals, too.

Not true. The reaction of the dog owner will influence the reaction of the dog. Give acupuncture --> dog owner becomes more relaxed --> dog becomes more relaxed. This has been studied.

 

[Gadarene]

My sister-in-law was having respiratory problems--so bad that she ended up in the hospital. They could not find out what was wrong and they pump0ed her up with antibiotics--she did have a fever with all this. It would not go away, this went on for about 4 mths--she get fed up and went to a holistic dr--I don't know what he did, but within a few days, she was back to normal.

Well, let us know when you do find out what it is.

to say that holistic medicine is satanic, quackery is ridiculous. It is using natural substances to cure illness. Regular dr's always poo-poo this, as they poo-poo chiropracters, and acupuncture. Holistic medicine is more in line with the bible than medicine that pumps you full of dangerous drugs. It was what the people always used in the past. Herbs are God's gifts to us and will be in heaven--"the leaves are for the healing of the nations"--refering to the tree of life.

Oh for goodness sake. They also had massive maternal death rates and died from basic complaints like tooth decay leading to infection, but YAY THE PAST

Just because something is "natural" doesn't necessarily make it good, and just because something is a "chemical" doesn't mean it's going to poison you. Cyanide is naturally occurring, but it'll still kill you, and water is just as much a chemical as cyanide or any drug is! This natural/chemical dichotomy is utterly fallacious, not to mention inconsistent as heck.

Regular dr's poo-poo chiropracters and acupuncture because there is no evidence to support their claims. That's not to say there's no benefit AT ALL from some alternative treatments, but it's vastly overstated. One doesn't even need to pierce the skin to induce the minor benefits of acupuncture. The issue here is that some mechanisms of treatment are perceived as more "dramatic", which alters the level of placebo effect that occurs. Sugar pills will not produce as high a correlation with a positive outcome compared with an injection of saline.

I know that acupuncture works--my niece would take her Rottweiller to one for his bad hip every week. You could see the difference, he could barely walk on the way to him, walking much better after the tx's--animals don't lie and can't be duped by any placebo effect.

Yes, they can. They can be affected by the emotional state of their owners, and other conditioning effects.

Science-Based Medicine » Is There a Placebo Effect for Animals?

 

[morningstar2651]

I think it is actually better in some aspects. You are doing a better job of treating your body as a temple by avoiding putting all of modern medicine's toxins in your system.

I'll say it again.

James Randi regularly takes "fatal overdoses" of homeopathic sleeping pills to demonstrate that they do nothing. They have no side effects...or regular effects.

James Randi explains homeopathy - YouTube

 

[Cromulent]

Dara Ó Briain: "People say you can't overdose on homeopathic medicine... You can £*%!ing drown!"

 

[Desk trauma]

Dara Ó Briain: "People say you can't overdose on homeopathic medicine... You can £*%!ing drown!"

Ban dihydrogen monoxide!

 

[mmksparbud]

A substance being natural has no bearing on if it is healthy or if it is something that you should ingest. Should laws restricting the use of asbestos be suspended due to it being a naturally occurring substance?

True, horse manure is natural, that doesn't mean one should eat it.



As they should because both are not based in reality and have not been proven effective.

What prove have you that acupuncture and chiropractic does not work? On a personal level, I know both do work, not just on me but in many others.


This much I agree with you on, quack "natural medicine" would be very much in line with the primitive understanding of the human body and illness that the authors of the bible had

It is from "primitive" medicine that many of our drugs come from--Tree bark that the Indians used to chew on, proved to be aspirin. Digitalis came from foxglove--many others.



How long a practice has been around has no bearing on how effective it is, only testable results.

Acupuncture and chiroporacters have been proven to be helpful, for several years now--it's only "old time" dr's, not up to the newest tests and numerous medical articles that put them done--just sheer arrogance.



The plural of anecdote is not evidence, actual studies of acupuncture have not proven it effective.

Wrong--they have been proven effective. You just do not want to believe it.
My father went to the ER because he was bright yellow. He's an onery cus and said he just wanted a pill for this and to go home. They refused to treat him unless he was admitted as they felt he would die if he went home. A normal person would have. He went to the supermarket and bought a bunch of papayas and ate papaya till he couldn't eat any more---the next day he was fine and was for many years after. He had no idea why he wanted to eat so much papaya. One regular dr explained it this way--the papaya has a powerful enzyme which probably dissolved a blockage.

I've had bladder infections, and some people I know, and taking massive dosses of beta caroteen and vit c have cleared them up just as fast, if not faster than antibiotics. It has to be both--it works, period. Don't care if you think it doesn't--I didn't think it would either, but has--3 times for me--and for about 5 other people who tried it.
I've had regular dr's who ended up shutting down my thyroid, nearly killed me with too much muscle relaxant and not enough anesthia for my eye surgery (I went into resp arrest), were unable to fix my fungal ear infection (they tried for 5 mths)--one dr refused to believe me when I said I was pregnant, I was puking up my toes 2-3 weeks after my finacee said "oops"--I knew I was pregnant. Dr gave me meds not meant for preg. women, also upper and lower Gi's, I was hospitalized for severe dehydration--by the time I got to a dr that took me seriously I was almost 3 mths along. A catholic dr working at a catholic hospital gave me the address of an abortion clinic outside the state were it was legal as he felt that if I was able to carry the child to term (which he highly doubted), the list of meds I'd had would have given me one pretty horrible looking monster. Another ear dr did not believe I had an ear infection (different from the fungal infection)--he felt I just had wax and he proceeded to flush my ear. When I screamed in pain he scowled and said flushing the ears does not cause pain---I ran out and went to my nephrologist who looked at my ears and gave me the right antibiotic, it was not a wax build up, the infection is what caused the pain when that idiot flushed it. One dr refused to believe that I had a broken ankle, it was just a sprain. It hurt so bad that it must be arthritic so I was sent to an orthopedic surgeon who x-rayed it and found it was broken--if It had gone untreated any longer, it would not have joined.---I've had my share of arrogant, know it all dr's who knew nothing. I've also had the priviledge of knowing some excellent ones.
Along with great chiropracters, holistic and alternative med ones.

 

[Gadarene]

Dara Ó Briain: "People say you can't overdose on homeopathic medicine... You can £*%!ing drown!"

I made a 200C dilution of nitroglycerine.

[sarcasm]Time to hold the world to ransom with my homeopathic bomb![/sarcasm]

 

[morningstar2651]

In my humble opinion, if you want to try holistic treatment, you should see both the holistic doctor, and the modern doctor, for a second opinion.
I completely agree with what you are saying about the drug companies though, and I think that is part of what turns me off to modern medicine.
But hey, some people are cured by medicine, some by homeopathy, and some by laying of the hands. Who's to say what will work for you?
I personally have never tried holistic medicine, but have an open mind about it.

Faith healing is a scam.

Peter Popoff - sue me, I dare you, I double dare you! - YouTube

Peter Popoff - sue me - Part 2 - YouTube

 

[Desk trauma]

Wrong--they have been proven effective.

Link to the studies showing its efficacy then.

 

[Gadarene]

Faith healing is a scam.

Well, certainly Peter Popoff is a scammer.