Gods Words Are Clear, The Deception Used To Deceive The World Into Taking The Mark And Image Worship Is Fire Called From Heaven By The False Prophet

[Spiritual Jew]

Peterism takes the symbolic temple destruction in Matthew 24:2 and interprets it as a literal destruction in 70AD, and the literal second coming in Matthew24:29-31 as a symbolic

The temple being destroyed in Matthew 24:2 was symbolic of the Lord's death and resurrection, and yes his disciples remembered what he had said about the temples destruction

At the death of Jesus Christ, the veil in the temple was rent, the temple was symbolically destroyed, and after the resurrection this temple was replaced, by the body of Jesus Christ

Yes Preterism takes the literal second coming seen in Matthew 24:29-31, and symbolizes this into a "Coming Judgement" upon Israel in 70AD By Roman Armies

Matthew 27:50:51KJV
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

John 2:19-22KJV
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

Your futurist view doesn't make any more sense of the Olivet Discourse than his preterist view does. Taking a completely futurist or completely preterist view of the Olivet Discourse is a mistake. Jesus talked both about the destruction of the temple buildings AND about His future coming at the end of the age in the Olivet Discourse. Until futurists and preterists understand this, it will continue to be a case of people holding to one false end times belief system (futurism) arguing with people holding to another false end times belief system (preterism).

John 2:19-22 is not part of the Olivet Discourse. Nowhere does Jesus indicate in the Olivet Discourse that the temple buildings He said would be destroyed represent His body.

Mark 13:1 And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here! 2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

You expect us to believe that when the disciples said to Jesus at the temple standing at that time "see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!" and when Jesus responded and said "Seest thou these great buildings?" that He was talking about His body. That's complete nonsense. No, He was referring to the same buildings the disciples were referring to. He did refer to His body as a temple in John 2:19-22, but He would not refer to His body as "these great buildings". That's ludicrous. What evidence do you have to support that He would ever refer to His body as "these great buildings"? Don't say John 2:19-22 because He referred to His body as a temple there, not as temple buildings.

He was clearly referring to the temple buildings standing at that time and said they would be destroyed and His prophecy came true in 70 AD, which should be celebrated for its accuracy. Instead, you deny it. You don't have to agree with everything else preterists falsely believe just because of acknowledging that Jesus talked some about the temple buildings being destroyed. It's like you're afraid to acknowledge that Jesus prophesied what happened in 70 AD. Why? To do so doesn't mean you are saying that everything He said in the Olivet Discourse was about that. Only a small part of it is about that and the rest relates to His future coming and the end of the age.

 

[claninja]

Just because the same word was used in those verses as what is used in Matthew 24:14 does not mean they have the same context. That word has multiple definitions and can refer to the known world (which does not include the entire world) or it can refer to the entire world including the part that wasn't known at the time. I believe Jesus was referring to the entire world, including unknown parts of the world, while the verses written by Paul referred to the known world at the time rather than the entire world including the unknown parts of it.

Also, there's the fact that the end of the age did not come in 70 AD. Jesus taught that this age is temporal when people die and get married while the age to come is eternal when people will no longer die and get married (Luke 20:34-36). So, the end of age did NOT come in 70 AD, which means that Matthew 24:14 cannot possibly be fulfilled yet. One of the questions Jesus was asked about was His coming and the end of the age and He did not come and there was no end to any age in 70 AD.

I don’t think Oikoumene’s definition includes “parts outside of the known world”, at least not that I can find.

• Usage: The term "oikoumené" primarily refers to the inhabited world or the known world, particularly in the context of the Roman Empire during the New Testament period. It is used to describe the earth as the dwelling place of humanity, often with an emphasis on the civilized or politically organized world - strongs lexicon.

Additionally, thayers Greek lexicon groups Romans 10:18 and Matthew 24:14 under the same usage. So I would argue Paul’s belief that the gospel had gone to the “ends of the oikoumene” is not out of scope with Jesus’ statement of the gospel going to the “all of the oikoumene”.

• c. the whole inhabited earth, the world(so in (Hyperides, Eux. 42 (probablyLiddell and Scott)) the Sept. for תֵּבֵל and אֶרֶץ): Luke 4:5; Luke 21:26; Acts 24:5; Romans 10:18; Revelation 16:14; Hebrews 1:6 (πᾶσα ἡ οἰκουμένη, Josephus, b. j. 7, 3, 3); ὅλῃ ἡ οἰκουμένη, Matthew 24:14; Acts 11:28

You are going to have to explain why Paul’s first century understanding of the gospel going to the whole oikoumene, was different than what Christ taught.

As to the “end of the age”, Paul stated the ends of the ages had come upon them in 1 Corinthians 10:11.

 

[claninja]

Daniel 7:13-14 is all about the ascension of Jesus Christ to heaven after His resurrection long ago. He came on the cloudes of heaven TO the Ancient of Days, which refers to God the Father. What is described in Daniel 7:13-14 matches what is described in Ephesians 1:19-22 which refers to the ascension of Jesus Christ to the right hand of the Father in heaven after His resurrection.

My point was that Daniel 7 is apocalyptic literature. Apocalyptic literature is not required to be understood as literal.

No, Zechariah 12:11-14 refers to people being saddened and mourning Jesus's death while Matthew 24:30 refers to people wailing in fear of His wrath when He comes (same as Revelation 1:7 which refers to people fearing His wrath, as described in Revelation 6:12-17).

Revelation 1:7 further supports that Matthew 24:30 is alluding to Zechariah 12. Zechariah 12 is known as apocalyptic literature.

Very easily because "this generation" refers to the Jewish race of people and not a chronological generation.

I can’t find any evidence that genea = Jewish race throughout all time.

As of now, I only see the circular reasoning for such a position.

I disagree. He was only referring to the things that relate to the time before His future second coming at the end of the age and not to the temple destruction. I think you would agree, however, that all these things would include the gathering of the elect from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven (Mark 13:27), right? So, tell me how the elect were all gathered from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven in 70 AD.

See parable of the wedding feast, where the servants gather the good and bad into the wedding hall following the destruction of the city.

 

[Truth7t7]

Your futurist view doesn't make any more sense of the Olivet Discourse than his preterist view does. Taking a completely futurist or completely preterist view of the Olivet Discourse is a mistake. Jesus talked both about the destruction of the temple buildings AND about His future coming at the end of the age in the Olivet Discourse. Until futurists and preterists understand this, it will continue to be a case of people holding to one false end times belief system (futurism) arguing with people holding to another false end times belief system (preterism).

John 2:19-22 is not part of the Olivet Discourse. Nowhere does Jesus indicate in the Olivet Discourse that the temple buildings He said would be destroyed represent His body.

Mark 13:1 And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here! 2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

You expect us to believe that when the disciples said to Jesus at the temple standing at that time "see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!" and when Jesus responded and said "Seest thou these great buildings?" that He was talking about His body. That's complete nonsense. No, He was referring to the same buildings the disciples were referring to. He did refer to His body as a temple in John 2:19-22, but He would not refer to His body as "these great buildings". That's ludicrous. What evidence do you have to support that He would ever refer to His body as "these great buildings"? Don't say John 2:19-22 because He referred to His body as a temple there, not as temple buildings.

Jesus said the same standing before the temple, stating "Destroy This Temple" and the Jews thought he was talking about a literal temple being destroyed that took 46 years to build just as you

When Jesus died on the cross of Calvary the veil in the Jerusalem temple was torn in the Holy Place, the temple was destroyed (Gone) not one stone upon another, Jesus at Calvary replaced the temple, from the old covenant to the new

John 2:19-21KJV
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

Matthew 24:15 Daniel's AOD is future that causes the great tribulation seen in Matthew 24:21, Jesus returns literally in the heavens immediately after this "Future" great tribulation Matthew 24:29-31 in the "Last Trump" and resurrection as the angels gather the elect

Matthew 24:29-31KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The very same is seen in Daniel 12:1-2 below, a time of great tribulation, and at this time the resurrection and final judgment takes place (The End) and it didn't take place in 66-70AD

Daniel 12:1-2KJV
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I don’t think Oikoumene’s definition includes “parts outside of the known world”, at least not that I can find.

I disagree. I see this at blueletterible.org

• Usage: The term "oikoumené" primarily refers to the inhabited world or the known world, particularly in the context of the Roman Empire during the New Testament period. It is used to describe the earth as the dwelling place of humanity, often with an emphasis on the civilized or politically organized world - strongs lexicon.

It can refer to the known world or to the entire world. You can't convince me otherwise.

Additionally, thayers Greek lexicon groups Romans 10:18 and Matthew 24:14 under the same usage.

So? Is that supposed to be proof of anything? That is someone's opinion of how the word is used in those verses. Apparently, the opinion of a preterist like you. I disagree with that opinion.

So I would argue Paul’s belief that the gospel had gone to the “ends of the oikoumene” is not out of scope with Jesus’ statement of the gospel going to the “all of the oikoumene”.

And, I obviously argue otherwise.

You are going to have to explain why Paul’s first century understanding of the gospel going to the whole oikoumene, was different than what Christ taught.

Because Jesus had the literal end of time and the world as we know it in mind and that was not the context of what Paul was talking about.

As to the “end of the age”, Paul stated the ends of the ages had come upon them in 1 Corinthians 10:11.

So, the word "age" and "ages" means the same thing to you? Again, the context is different. We're talking about Jesus's perspective here and He explained that this age is temporal and is the time during which people get married and they die. He contrasted that with the eternal age to come when people will no longer get married or die (Luke 20:34-36). So, "the end of the age" needs to be understood in that context.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Jesus said the same standing before the temple, stating "Destroy This Temple" and the Jews thought he was talking about a literal temple being destroyed that took 46 years to build just as you

That wasn't part of the Olivet Discourse and had a different context. You expect us to believe when He said "see these great buildings" He was talking about His body. Since when did He ever refer to His body as "great buildings"? He did call His body a temple building, but not temple buildings (plural). The disciples were marveling at the temple buildings standing at that time and Jesus said they would be destroyed. And they were.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

My point was that Daniel 7 is apocalyptic literature. Apocalyptic literature is not required to be understood as literal.

No, of course that isn't required, but it can be. In this case Daniel 7:13-14 is referring to the literal coming of Jesus TO the Father in heaven when He ascended there long ago after His resurrection, exactly matching what is described in Ephesians 1:19-23.

Revelation 1:7 further supports that Matthew 24:30 is alluding to Zechariah 12. Zechariah 12 is known as apocalyptic literature.

Both preterists like yourself and futurists miss that the context of Zechariah 12 is different than Revelation 1:7 and Matthew 24:30. Zechariah 12 relates to people mourning Jesus's death long ago. In contrast to that, Revelation 1:7 and Matthew 24:30 relate to people wailing in fear of Christ's wrath at His future second coming when He will take vengeance on them (2 Thess 1:7-10, Revelation 6:12-17).

I can’t find any evidence that genea = Jewish race throughout all time.

Of course you can't. How could you find that while wearing Preterist glasses? You interpret everything with preterist bias. Try being objective for once and see what you discover.

See parable of the wedding feast, where the servants gather the good and bad into the wedding hall following the destruction of the city.

You clearly have no understanding of that parable. It has to do with the gospel being preached first in Jerusalem and then throughout the world offering salvation to all people. The wedding won't take place until the gospel is no longer being preached.

Also, we were talking about things that happen BEFORE the end of the age when this generation passes away and you're talking about something that happens AFTER the time when you think the age came to an end and this generation passed away. So, I don't see how you can think that parable can be referring to the gathering of the elect in any way, shape or form.

And one other thing. How does that parable refer to the elect being gathered both from the uttermost part of the earth and the uttermost part of heaven?

 

[Truth7t7]

That wasn't part of the Olivet Discourse and had a different context. You expect us to believe when He said "see these great buildings" He was talking about His body. Since when did He ever refer to His body as "great buildings"? He did call His body a temple building, but not temple buildings (plural). The disciples were marveling at the temple buildings standing at that time and Jesus said they would be destroyed. And they were.

"Destroy This Temple" and it was interpreted as the Lord's body not a literal temple in Jerusalem made of stone

My opinion isn't changing on the matter, and you will most likely keep your own

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[claninja]

I disagree. I see this at blueletterible.org

It can refer to the known world or to the entire world. You can't convince me otherwise.

You supplied only the outline of thayers Greek lexicon, but not the actual usage of definition 2 found in the very same thayers Greek lexicon.

• 2. the universe, the world: Wis. 1:7 (alternating there with τά πάντα); ἡοἰκουμένη μελλουσα, that consummate state of all things which will exist after Christ's return from heaven, Hebrews 2:5(where the word alternates with πάνταand τά πάντα, Hebrews 2:8, which there is taken in an absolute sense).

In this sense it still refers to the known inhabited world. I can’t find anywhere where oikoumene includes “unknown” parts.

So? Is that supposed to be proof of anything? That is someone's opinion of how the word is used in those verses. Apparently, the opinion of a preterist like you. I disagree with that opinion.

this is a little ironic since you provided the outline for thayers Greek lexicon usage of oikoumene.

But if thayers is “too preterist” for you how about A different source - strongs:

• In the Greco-Roman world, "oikoumené" was commonly used to denote the extent of the Roman Empire, which was considered the center of civilization and governance. This term reflects the worldview of the time, where the Roman Empire was seen as encompassing the entirety of the civilized world. In Jewish and early Christian thought, it also carried eschatological connotations, referring to the world that God governs and will ultimately redeem

Notice here, the first century usage means 1.) the Roman Empire or 2.) the redeemed world.

And, I obviously argue otherwise.

Because Jesus had the literal end of time and the world as we know it in mind and that was not the context of what Paul was talking about.

and I would disagree with your position that Jesus had the end of the literal globe in mind since the context starts with the destruction of the temple and concludes with “this generation shall not pass away until all these things occur”.

I would argue Jesus had the end of the mosaic dispensation with its temple practices in mind - since Jesus said not one stone would stand upon another and this generation won’t pass away until all these things occur.

So, the word "age" and "ages" means the same thing to you? Again, the context is different. We're talking about Jesus's perspective here and He explained that this age is temporal and is the time during which people get married and they die. He contrasted that with the eternal age to come when people will no longer get married or die (Luke 20:34-36). So, "the end of the age" needs to be understood in that context.

Since it’s generally accepted, based on Paul’s letters, that he believed Christ would come in his generation, it makes sense that Paul’s belief that the gospel had gone to the whole oikoumene and that the end of the ages had come upon his generation, are in the same scope as Christs word in the olivet Discourse.

Think like Paul, not someone 2,000 years removed who stands on 2 millennia of evolved eschatologically since the first century. If you were in Paul’s shoes what would be your understanding of Matthew 24:14? If Paul thought his lifetime then why would he think oikoumene meant something beyond how it was used in the first century?

 

[claninja]

No, of course that isn't required, but it can be. In this case Daniel 7:13-14 is referring to the literal coming of Jesus TO the Father in heaven when He ascended there long ago after His resurrection, exactly matching what is described in Ephesians 1:19-23.

How does the angel in Daniel 7, interpret Daniel 7:13-14.

Both preterists like yourself and futurists miss that the context of Zechariah 12 is different than Revelation 1:7 and Matthew 24:30. Zechariah 12 relates to people mourning Jesus's death long ago. In contrast to that, Revelation 1:7 and Matthew 24:30 relate to people wailing in fear of Christ's wrath at His future second coming when He will take vengeance on them (2 Thess 1:7-10, Revelation 6:12-17).

I was unaware that all the tribes of the land mourned for Jesus at his crucifixion.

Of course you can't.

Exactly.

You clearly have no understanding of that parable. It has to do with the gospel being preached first in Jerusalem and then throughout the world offering salvation to all people. The wedding won't take place until the gospel is no longer being preached.

Also, we were talking about things that happen BEFORE the end of the age when this generation passes away and you're talking about something that happens AFTER the time when you think the age came to an end and this generation passed away. So, I don't see how you can think that parable can be referring to the gathering of the elect in any way, shape or form.

And one other thing. How does that parable refer to the elect being gathered both from the uttermost part of the earth and the uttermost part of heaven?

The purpose of the parable was to demonstrate apostates Israel ruin for rejecting the son, while the kingdom would be given to others - he’s literally talking to the Pharisees that he would soon curse and say ruin is coming upon Their generation in the very next chapter.

 

[Truth7t7]

The purpose of the parable was to demonstrate apostates Israel ruin for rejecting the son, while the kingdom would be given to others - he’s literally talking to the Pharisees that he will soon curse and say ruin is coming upon Their generation in the very next chapter.

Jesus was speaking of a "Future" generation that will be eyewitnesses upon this earth of his literal "Future" second coming in the heavens (They Shall See The Son Of Man Coming) They "A Future Generation" Not You The Generation Spoken To

What is near even at the doors when the signs are seen, the "Future" second coming and a "Future" generation that will be eyewitnesses

What is the day and hour no man knows, not even the angels, the "Future" second coming of Jesus in the heavens

The Bible states (This Generation) not (Your Generation)

Matthew 24:29-36KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

 

[claninja]

Jesus was speaking of a "Future" generation that will be eyewitnesses upon this earth of his literal "Future" second coming in the heavens (They Shall See The Son Of Man Coming) They "A Future Generation" Not You The Generation Spoken To

What is near even at the doors when the signs are seen, the "Future" second coming and a "Future" generation that will be eyewitnesses

What is the day and hour no man knows, not even the angels, the "Future" second coming of Jesus in the heavens

The Bible states (This Generation) not (Your Generation)

Matthew 24:29-36KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

I completely disagree with your assertion that the phrase "this generation" refers to a future generation.

After a search, I can't seem to find the phrase "your generation (singluar)" anywhere in the Bible in any context, whether in the greek or hebrew. So I would argue it would be unlikely that the authors of the NT would have written "your" generation in order to mean Jesus' contemporaries.

However, we can find Biblical usages of the greek phrase "the generation this" elsewhere in scripture that means contemporaneous.

1.) "This generation" specifically refers to Noah's contemporaries.

• Genesis 7:1 And the Lord said to Noah, go into the ark, you and all your house, for I have seen that you alone are righteous before Me in this generation.”
  • Genesis 7:1 greek: Καὶ εἶπεν Κύριος πρὸς Νοὴν, Εἰς τὴν κιβωτὸν εἰσέλθες, σύ και πᾶς ὁ οἶκός σου, ὅτι σὺ μόνος εὗρεν χάριν ἐνώπιον ἐμοῦ ἐν τῇ γενεᾷ ταύτῃ. - notice "the generation this" is the exact same phrase as matthew 24:34

2.) However, if the author wishes not necessarily to discuss a contemporaneous generation, but a generation from a different time, the phrase is "the generation that" or "the coming generation" appears to be used.

Past generation:

• Exodus 1:6 Then Joseph died, and all his brothers and all that generation.
  • Exodus 1:6 in greek Καὶ ἀπέθανεν Ἰωσήφ καὶ πάντες οἱ ἀδελφοί αὐτοῦ καὶ πᾶσα ἡ γενεὰ ἐκείνη.
• Judges 2:10 After that whole generation had been gathered to their ancestors, another generation grew up who knew neither the LORD nor what he had done for Israel.
  • Judges 2:10 καὶ πᾶσα ἡ γενεὰ ἐκείνη προσετέθησαν πρὸς τοὺς πατέρας αὐτῶν καὶ ἀνέστη γενεὰ ἑτέρα μετ᾽ αὐτούς ὅσοι οὐκ ἔγνωσαν τὸν κύριον καὶ τὸ ἔργον ὃ ἐποίησεν τῷ Ισραηλ

Future generation:

• Psalm 22:30 And my seed shall serve him: the generation that is coming shall be reported to the Lord.
  • καὶ τὸ σπέρμα μου δουλεύσει αὐτῷ ἀναγγελήσεται τῷ κυρίῳ γενεὰ ἡ ἐρχομένη

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Now, If you want to argue that Jesus should have said "you" in order to demonstrate he was talking about his contemporaries, well He literally did:

• Matthew 24:33 So also, when YOU see all these things, YOU will know that He is near, right at the door.

From the synoptic gospel of Mark, we know his audience of "YOU" included James (Mark 13:3), And from the epistles of James (assuming the same disciple), we have his belief that the coming of the Lord was near, right at the door. According to Jesus, James should only have known it was near, right at the door, IF he, Jesus' contemporary, was seeing the very events of the olivet discourse unfold. So if Jesus' contemporary generation was not living through "all these things", James, nor Peter, nor John, nor the author of hebrews should not have said the following:

• James 5:8-9 You, too, be patient and strengthen your hearts, because the Lord’s coming is near. 9Do not complain about one another, brothers, so that you will not be judged. Look, the Judge is standing at the door!
• 1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is near. Therefore be clear-minded and sober, so that you can pray.
• 1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour.
• Hebrews 10:37 For, “In just a little while, He who is coming will come and will not delay.

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The phrase no one knows the day nor hour does not require that no one knows general the time frame:

• A pregnant woman does not know the exact day nor hour of birth, but the general time frame is known.
• In Galilean wedding customs, while he bride and groom knew the general time frame of when the wedding would occur, but not the exact day nor hour when the groom's father would send the groom to get the bride.

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The olivet discourse opens up with the mention of the fall of the temple complex and its buildings (hieron) and concludes with the phrase "this generation will not pass away until all these things occur". The temple complex was literally destroyed within Jesus' generation.

 

[Truth7t7]

Now, If you want to argue that Jesus should have said "you" in order to demonstrate he was talking about his contemporaries, well He literally did:

• Matthew 24:33 So also, when YOU see all these things, YOU will know that He is near, right at the door.

'You" is representative of Jesus speaking to the Church

The generation spoken to in Matthew chapter 24 didn't see all the things, Matthew 24:29-31 gives a distinct detailed teaching on the "Future" second coming, it's a "Future" generation that will be eyewitnesses of the literal second coming of Jesus in the heavens

Matthew 24:29-31KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[claninja]

'You" is representative of Jesus speaking to the Church

In a previous post, you implied Jesus would have said "your" generation, in vs 34, if he meant his contemporaries. Now, in vs 33, "you" doesn't mean contemporaries, but the church in general? This is an inconsistent argument that appears to be a double standard.

The generation spoken to in Matthew chapter 24 didn't see all the things, Matthew 24:29-31 gives a distinct detailed teaching on the "Future" second coming, it's a "Future" generation that will be eyewitnesses of the literal second coming of Jesus in the heavens

Of course, I absolutely agree that Jesus' generation didn't live through YOUR interpretation of the olivet discourse. However, I disagree with YOUR interpretation of the olivet discourse.

Matthew 24:29-31 contains allusions to Old testament apocalyptic passages like Isaiah 13, Zechariah 12, Daniel 7. Apocalyptic literature is highly figurative and NOT required to be taken as literal:

• The term apocalyptic is used in modern biblical studies to refer to a type of discourse that describes, usually in highly figurative terms, a sudden divine intervention in human history for the accomplishment of either salvific or judgmental purposes. (Introduction to Old Testament Apocalyptic Literature | Richard A. Taylor)

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If Jesus' generation they lived through and witnessed these events of the Olivet discourse, then they WOULD KNOW it was near, right at the door, just as a fig tree sprouting leaves indicates summer is near

• Matthew 24:32-33 Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its branches become tender and sprout leaves, you know that summer is near. So also, when YOU see all these things, YOU will know that He is near, right at the door.

The disciples of Jesus' contemporaneous generation literally lived through and witnessed the events listed in the olivet discourse:

• Famine (acts 11:28)
• Persecutions (acts 4, acts 5, acts 7, acts 12, etc...)
• False Christs/prophets/Antichrist (1 John 2:18-19, 2 John 1:7, Josephus records false messiahs appearing before 70 AD (Jewish War 2.13.4, 6.5.2))
• Many falling away (1 john 2:19)
• The gospel reaching the whole oikoumene (Roman world) (colossians 1:23, romans 1:, romans 10:18)
• The destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple (wars of the jews book VI).
• Gathering of the good and bad into wedding hall following destruction of city (Matthew 22)

So Jesus' disciples, that lived through and witnessed the events listed in the olivet discourse, then claimed, based on the parable of the fig tree, that the coming of the Lord was near.

• The coming of the Lord has drawn near, the judge is standing at the door (james 5:8-9)
• The coming is soon and without delay (Hebrews 10:37)
• The end of the all things has drawn near (1 Peter 4:7)
• It is the last hour (1 John 2:18-19).

IF the apocalyptic segment of matthew 24:29-31 is not meant to be taken literally, but is meant to be allusions to OT testament passages such as Isaiah 13, Zechariah 12, and Daniel 7, that are figurative of God's diving intervention in human history for judgmental purposes on Jerusalem, then I see no problem with Jesus' contemporaneous generation living through it and witnessing it.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

God is very detailed in describing the deceptions that will be used, (The False Prophet) calls fire down from heaven before (The Beast) sorta like Elijah to "Deceive The World" before your eyes, no guess work

Matthew 24:24KJV
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Revelation 13:13-14KJV
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

The collective churches have been calling down fire fire from God on everyone who doesn't believe "like them" for quite some time now.

How much more evidence do we need?

Look, the false prophet gets his own comeuppance at the finale, and the false prophet along with the beast and the dragon are the spirits of devils, Rev. 16:13-14. NOT people.

Anyone thinking devils are people fell off the eschatology cliff, and in effect may, emphasis MAY even bear the "mark" of the beast" in themselves, promoting our unsaved neighbors to burn alive forever for example. I'm not saying such are "unsaved" as I believe God in Christ will let them off the hook in any case, except the devils are not getting off the hook

 

[Douggg]

I can see the religious jews being decieved by this false Elijah and false messiah , but i'm confused as to how other people could be decieved.

The main basis for the deception will be the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood. Some, we don't know how many, will believe his claim,

God then has the person killed for his act, in Ezekiel 28:1-10.

Then in disdain for the person, brings him back to life in Isaiah 14:18-20, to become the beast (king) of Revelation 13.

In 2Thessalonians2:8-12, in verse 11, it says God sends "strong delusion" to them who believe the Antichrist's lie of having achieved God-hood. The strong delusion is the bringing the person back to life.

So to the unsaved world, which rejects God's Truth, it will appear that the Antichrist's claim of having achieved God-hood was true, backed up being able to overcome death.

There is going to be a lot of deception going on during those days. Such as the miracle of the false prophet bringing the statue image of the beast king to life and speaking in Revelation 13:15 - will really be because Satan will indwell the image making it appear so. Which everyone worshiping the statue image will unknowingly be worshiping Satan.

When Jesus returns, the statue image will be burst into flames, as Jesus focuses the intensity of his eyes appearing as flaming fire (Revelation 1:14) upon it - a lazer like beam - turning it to ashes - exposing Satan there on the temple mount visible to the armies surrounding Jerusalem and their kings of the earth.

Ezekiel 28:
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.


Everyone who will have been worshiping the statue image of the beast-king will be astonished, shocked, to find out that they had been worshiping Satan all along.

 

[Truth7t7]

The collective churches have been calling down fire fire from God on everyone who doesn't believe "like them" for quite some time now.

How much more evidence do we need?

Look, the false prophet gets his own comeuppance at the finale, and the false prophet along with the beast and the dragon are the spirits of devils, Rev. 16:13-14. NOT people.

Anyone thinking devils are people fell off the eschatology cliff, and in effect may, emphasis MAY even bear the "mark" of the beast" in themselves, promoting our unsaved neighbors to burn alive forever for example. I'm not saying such are "unsaved" as I believe God in Christ will let them off the hook in any case, except the devils are not getting off the hook

I Disagree With Your Interpretation

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

I Disagree With Your Interpretation

Maybe you are misreading?

Love our neighbors is always valid, forever

I wouldn't take the opposite side of that bet

 

[Truth7t7]

Maybe you are misreading?

Love our neighbors is always valid, forever

I wouldn't take the opposite side of that bet

Revelation 3:5KJV
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels

Revelation 20:11-15KJV
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Revelation 20:11-15KJV
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

I have no issues with eternal hell for the devil and his messengers