GOD'S WORD vs TRADITIONS OF MEN; Sabbath vs Sunday

sparow

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What you're calling "Christians" are nothing more than religious people.

I am not interested in calling Christians anything. Mine was an agreement with what someone else said; remember it is to Christians that Christ will say, "Depart from Me you who practice lawlessness"; religion implies lawfulness but Isaiah prophesied that in the last days there will be many forms of righteousness, that is not complying with God.
 
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sparow

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You're confusing bible facts. The law came by Moses. So, keeping the law WAS given as a way to be righteous until Jesus died for sins.


I may be confusing Dispensational facts which I am ignorant of. The covenant, which the commandments are an abstract of was always intended to Go to the whole world. The White horse Rev 6:2 is the covenant going to the whole world, and is history; Dispensationalists and others say this Satan delivering a false covenant; because both covenants have happened I am prepared to consider Rev 6:2, a dual prophecy.
 
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liberty of conscience

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You're confusing bible facts. The law came by Moses. ...

Exo 24:10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.

Exo 24:11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

Jesus upon the mountain (Sinai), and a meal with the Elders. (OT)

Jesus upon the mountain (Moriah), and a meal with the Apostles. (NT)

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and for ever.

Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

What "law" was given by Moses? not the 10C, as that was spoken by God Himself from Heaven:

Exo 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,

Exodus 20:2-17 (10 Commandments)


Exo_20:22 And the LORD said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.

Exo_32:16 And the tables were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God, graven upon the tables.

The Law of God (10C), the "Truth" beginning with grace, was given by Jesus Christ:

Psa_119:142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.

Psa 119:151 Thou art near, O LORD; and all thy commandments are truth.

Notice, John 1:17, who did "grace" and "truth" come by? Moses or Jesus?

The Ten Commandments begin with Grace:

Exo 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

The 10 Commandments are Truth (Psalms 119:142,151; etc)

The "law" which came by Moses was the hand written laws that Moses was mediator of:

Lev_6:9 Command Aaron and his sons, saying, This is the law of the burnt offering: It is the burnt offering, because of the burning upon the altar all night unto the morning, and the fire of the altar shall be burning in it.

Lev_6:14 And this is the law of the meat offering: the sons of Aaron shall offer it before the LORD, before the altar.

Lev_14:32 This is the law of him in whom is the plague of leprosy, whose hand is not able to get that which pertaineth to his cleansing.

Num_6:21 This is the law of the Nazarite who hath vowed, and of his offering unto the LORD for his separation, beside that that his hand shall get: according to the vow which he vowed, so he must do after the law of his separation.

Jos_23:6 Be ye therefore very courageous to keep and to do all that is written in the book of the law of Moses, that ye turn not aside therefrom to the right hand or to the left;
 
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Cribstyl

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I may be confusing Dispensational facts which I am ignorant of. The covenant, which the commandments are an abstract of was always intended to Go to the whole world.
These scriptures contradict your statement:
Deu 5:3- The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.


Jer 31:31 - Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Jer 31:32 - Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:


The White horse Rev 6:2 is the covenant going to the whole world, and is history; Dispensationalists and others say this Satan delivering a false covenant; because both covenants have happened I am prepared to consider Rev 6:2, a dual prophecy.
Gods covenant are spelled out clearly and witnessed by a prophet.

CLUE: What does the law came by Moses mean? When you go to Exodus ( not Genesis) you can read and understand why John would write; Jhn 1:17 - For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
What part of covenant between me and you means "covenant between the whole world?
 
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Cribstyl

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Exo 24:10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.

Exo 24:11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

Jesus upon the mountain (Sinai), and a meal with the Elders. (OT)

Jesus upon the mountain (Moriah), and a meal with the Apostles. (NT)

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and for ever.

Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

What "law" was given by Moses? not the 10C, as that was spoken by God Himself from Heaven:

Exo 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,

Exodus 20:2-17 (10 Commandments)


Exo_20:22 And the LORD said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.

Exo_32:16 And the tables were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God, graven upon the tables.

The Law of God (10C), the "Truth" beginning with grace, was given by Jesus Christ:

Psa_119:142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.

Psa 119:151 Thou art near, O LORD; and all thy commandments are truth.

Notice, John 1:17, who did "grace" and "truth" come by? Moses or Jesus?

The Ten Commandments begin with Grace:

Exo 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

The 10 Commandments are Truth (Psalms 119:142,151; etc)

The "law" which came by Moses was the hand written laws that Moses was mediator of:

Lev_6:9 Command Aaron and his sons, saying, This is the law of the burnt offering: It is the burnt offering, because of the burning upon the altar all night unto the morning, and the fire of the altar shall be burning in it.

Lev_6:14 And this is the law of the meat offering: the sons of Aaron shall offer it before the LORD, before the altar.

Lev_14:32 This is the law of him in whom is the plague of leprosy, whose hand is not able to get that which pertaineth to his cleansing.

Num_6:21 This is the law of the Nazarite who hath vowed, and of his offering unto the LORD for his separation, beside that that his hand shall get: according to the vow which he vowed, so he must do after the law of his separation.

Jos_23:6 Be ye therefore very courageous to keep and to do all that is written in the book of the law of Moses, that ye turn not aside therefrom to the right hand or to the left;
Really? This does not negate that the law came by Moses. I don't get your arguments. Jesus made it clear that the law of circumcision came through Abraham not Moses. (Jhn 7:22-23) The fact that Jesus said circumcision was of the fathers before Moses, and must be performed if the 6th day falls on the Sabbath. This proves that circumcision was given before Sabbath was given. Sabbath was given through Moses.
 
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ace of hearts

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I am not interested in calling Christians anything. Mine was an agreement with what someone else said; remember it is to Christians that Christ will say, "Depart from Me you who practice lawlessness"; religion implies lawfulness but Isaiah prophesied that in the last days there will be many forms of righteousness, that is not complying with God.
Who are you referring to when using the word "christian" or talking about their practices?
 
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ace of hearts

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Arr brother but you do indeed. If you do not understand what the OLD COVENANT was how can you understand what the OLD COVENANT pointed to in the NEW? None have God's rest while continuing in UNBELIEF and SIN (breaking God's commandments *JAMES 2:10-11; ROMANS 3:20; 1 JOHN 3:4) *HEBREWS 3:7-19; HEBREWS 4:6
I keep asking what I don't understand the Old Covenant is and you provide no information from that covenant I don't understand. You do claim if I don't keep that covenant in part I have no salvation. Righteousness (salvation) doesn't come by keeping any part of the law. If I sin by not keeping the 7th day sabbath, I'd be obligated to that covenant. The word "new" means unprecedented. No one can keep to opposing things as Gal 3-5. Neither does righteousness come by the law as Rom 4 shows us. If we sin by transgressing the law - we're unrighteous and without God. Since we're delivered from the law, there's no condemnation by the law. Rom 7 -8.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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I keep asking what I don't understand the Old Covenant is and you provide no information from that covenant I don't understand. You do claim if I don't keep that covenant in part I have no salvation. Righteousness (salvation) doesn't come by keeping any part of the law. If I sin by not keeping the 7th day sabbath, I'd be obligated to that covenant. The word "new" means unprecedented. No one can keep to opposing things as Gal 3-5. Neither does righteousness come by the law as Rom 4 shows us. If we sin by transgressing the law - we're unrighteous and without God. Since we're delivered from the law, there's no condemnation by the law. Rom 7 -8.

Arr but I do indeed answer your questions with God's WORD, scripture by scripture and you have been shown many times already that your error is that you mix up the shadow laws from the MOSAIC BOOK od the COVENANT *EXODUS 24:7 with God's eternal law that give us the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD AND EVIL; SIN and RIGHTOEUSNESS *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; PSALMS 119:172 and I keep providing the scriptures that answer your questions that you choose to ignore and not respond to.

They are God's WORD not mine brother. Ignoring them do not make them disappear. No one has said to you that rightoeusness comes by the LAW have they? If no one has said to you that we are righteous by keeping the law when all of broken it why pretend that people are saying they are saved by the law to you?

We are only saved by grace through faith it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast. If you have been Born again by faith to LOVE then LOVE fulfills God's law in you from the inside out according to God's NEW COVENANT promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12. God's LAW then is the very expression of what LOVE is and is why JESUS says if you LOVE me keep my commandments *JOHN 14:15.

Those that continue in known unrepentant sin either do not know God or reject the gift of God's dear son *1 JOHN 2:3-4; ROMANS 6:23 and will not enter into the kingdom of Heaven * MATTHEW 7:12-23.

God's LAW (10 Commandments) give us the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD AND EVIL; SIN and RIGHTOEUSNESS *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; PSALMS 119:172. IF we knowingly break ANY one of God's 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of SIN *JAMES 2:10-11.

God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has led many to UNKNOWINGLY break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day. Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

In times of ignorance God winks at but now, <when a KNOWLEDGE of the truth has come> calls all men everywhere to REPENT (FOLLOW) (Acts 17:30-31).
 
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LoveGodsWord

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You didn't connect them for me.

It is God's WORD not mine brother. Your salvation is between you and God. Ignoring God's WORD shared with you in the posts you have ignored does not make it dissappear.
 
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sparow

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Who are you referring to when using the word "christian" or talking about their practices?

I call anyone Christian who call themselves Christian; I do believe the word before translation was first used as a derogative at Antioch.

Of people calling themselves Christian; some keep the Law of God, some keep other Laws and some are Lawless.
 
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BobRyan

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Jer 31:31 - Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Hint: in both covenants it is a sin to take God's name in vain thus Jeremiah can say "

Both covenants are made with Israel.

31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. 33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people."


It is not a new moral law - but a new place for it to be written... on tablets of the human heart instead of tablets of stone. There is nothing in Jeremiah 31:31-33 about a law that is not the law at sinal -- rather it is a covenant "an agreement" that includes the law written in the heart.
 
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BobRyan

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I keep asking what I don't understand the Old Covenant is and you provide no information from that covenant I don't understand. You do claim if I don't keep that covenant in part I have no salvation. Righteousness (salvation) doesn't come by keeping any part of the law. If I sin by not keeping the 7th day sabbath, I'd be obligated to that covenant. The word "new" means unprecedented.

As it turns out the "LAW" That is the NEW Covenant law of Jeremiah 31 includes "do not take God's name in vain".

And the "NEW" aspect is that as God says in Jeremiah 31 "I will write My LAW on their HEART and mind"

Thus Paul can say in Eph 6:2 that the 5th commandment is the "first commandment with a promise" in that still-valid Unit of TEN for all mankind
 
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LoveGodsWord

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As it turns out the "LAW" That is the NEW Covenant law of Jeremiah 31 includes "do not take God's name in vain".

And the "NEW" aspect is that as God says in Jeremiah 31 "I will write My LAW on their HEART and mind"

Thus Paul can say in Eph 6:2 that the 5th commandment is the "first commandment with a promise" in that still-valid Unit of TEN for all mankind

Good post Bob, where have you been? Nice to see you :wave:
 
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Cribstyl

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Jer 31:31 - Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Hint: in both covenants it is a sin to take God's name in vain thus Jeremiah can say "

Both covenants are made with Israel.

31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. 33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people."


It is not a new moral law - but a new place for it to be written... on tablets of the human heart instead of tablets of stone. There is nothing in Jeremiah 31:31-33 about a law that is not the law at sinal -- rather it is a covenant "an agreement" that includes the law written in the heart.


Gods covenant are spelled out clearly and witnessed by a prophet.
SPARROW SAID: .........The covenant, which the commandments are an abstract of was always intended to Go to the whole world.
I posted God saying that He did not make this covenant with the fathers before Moses but only with the Children of Israel. You confirm that both Old and New covenant was made with the Children of Israel...... Thank you very much.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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You confirm that both Old and New covenant was made with the Children of Israel...... Thank you very much.

Hello brother Cribstyl,

Nice to see you again. You do know brother that God's ISRAEL in the NEW COVENANT is the Church right? If you are not a part of God's ISRAEL then you have no part in the NEW COVENANT *HEBREWS 8:7-12. Gentiles are now grafted in *ROMANS 11:13-27.

Let's take a look at the scriptures that show who God's ISRAEL is and where is comes from in the OLD TESTAMENT that points to the NEW.

ORIGIN OF ISRAEL,THE TWLEVE TRIBES AND GOD'S PEOPLE IN THE NEW COVENANT

The promise of God was given to Abraham that his descendance would be as the sand of the sea or start of heaven *GENESIS 22:15-18. Jacob a descendant of Abraham being 2nd born received the birth right from Esau *GENESIS 25:31. God’s promise to Abraham was to be fulfilled through Abrahams descendant Jacob *GENESIS 32:11-12. Jacon on his way to meet Esau wrestles with God and God blesses him and changes his name to ISRAEL *GENESIS 32:24-28.

The name ISRAEL is only a name given by God himself to represent his people. The origin of the name "Israel" come from Genesis 32:28 where Jacob wrestled with the Angel and prevailed ...for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. Its meaning is his posterity will rule as God. Jacob (now named ISRAEL) had 12 sons representing the 12 sons or tribes of Israel *GENESIS 35:22-26. From here we see that God's NEW COVENANT promise was to ABRAHAMS decendents who GOD calls ISRAEL *JEREMIAH 31:31-34 which is also repeated here as the NEW COVENANT promise *HEBREWS 8:7-12 to ISRAEL (God's people). So the NEW COVENANT promise is to ISRAEL.

Now let's look at the meaning of the name that God gave to his people. The name "ISRAEL" ישׂראל; yiśrâ'êl means; "HE WILL RULE WITH GOD" God gave this name to his people and it means that they shall rule with God. Take a look at the following scriptures from REVELATION speaking of God's people.

REVELATION 1:5-6
[5], And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. To him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, [6], And HAS MADE US KINGS AND PRIESTS TO GOD AND HIS FATHER; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

and again...

REVELATION 5:10 And HAVE MADE US TO OUR GOD KINGS AND PRIESTS; AND WE SHALL REIGN ON THE EARTH.

Peter speaking of God's people says it this way...

1 PETER 2:9-10
[9], But you [God's people] are a chosen generation, A ROYAL PRIESTHOOD [KINGS AND PRIESTS], an holy nation, a peculiar people; that you should show forth the praises of him who has called you out of darkness into his marvelous light; [10], Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Sound familar? "ISRAEL" ישׂראל; yiśrâ'êl means; "HE WILL RULE WITH GOD" WHY?

JESUS is our great HIGH PRIEST ministering on our behalf in the HEVENLY SANCTUARY *HEBREWS 4:14. JESUS is the KING of KINGS *REVELATIONS 17:14; 19:16

HE WILL RULE WITH GOD WHICH IS THE MEANING OF "ISRAEL" is the name given to all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD because JESUS will make them to rule with him as PRIESTS and KINGS.

Notice further, also in REVELATION 7:3-8 just before the judgements of God are poured out on the world God's people are sealed with God's Spirit and 144,000 come out of the 12 tribes of ISRAEL

REVELATION 7:3-8 [3], Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads. [4], And I heard the number of them who were sealed: and there were sealed a hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of ISRAEL. [5], Of the tribe of JUDAH were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of REUBEN were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of GAD were sealed twelve thousand. [6], Of the tribe of ASHER were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Naphtali were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of MANESSAH were sealed twelve thousand. [7], Of the tribe of SIMEON were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of LEVI were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. [8], Of the tribe of ZEBULON were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of JOSEPH were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of BENJAMIN were sealed twelve thousand.

...............

CONCLUSION: The ORIGIN of ISRAEL is a name that GOD gave to Jacob and his descendence. The meaning of the name ISRAEL mean that God's people "WILL RULE WITH GOD". JESUS is GOD *JOHN 1:1-4; 14. KING OF KING *REVELATIONS 17:14; 19:16 and our GREAT HIGH PRIEST *HEBREWS 4:14. God's ISRAEL meaning God's people will be KINGS and PRIESTS ruling with God *REVELATION 1:5-6; REVELATION 5:10; 1 PETER 2:9-10. The NEW COVENANT promise is to God's ISRAEL. If you are not a part of God's ISRAEL you have no part in the NEW COVENANT.

.............

WHO ARE GOD'S ISRAEL IN THE NEW COVENANT?

There is no such thing as Jew or Greek anymore. All who believe and follow God's Word are one in Christ. Israel in the OLD COVENANT were those from the seed of Abraham. In the NEW COVENANT, if you are in Christ then you are Abrahams seed and heirs according to the promise *GALATIANS 3:28-29. The children of the FLESH are not ISRAEL those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW the promises of God's WORD are ISREAL *ROMANS 9:6-8. God's ISRAEL are all those in CHRIST that have been given BORN AGAIN to have a NEW HEART according to the NEW COVENANT promise *HEBREWS 8:7-12; ROMANS 2:28-29. Under the NEW COVENANT all those who are in CHRIST are God's ISRAEL *COLOSSIANS 3:11; ROMANS 10:11-13. If you are not a part of God's ISRAEL you have no part in the NEW COVENANT *JEREMIAH 31:33-34; EZEKIEL 36:26-27; HEBREWS 8:7-12. Gentiles are now grafted in *ROMANS 11:13-27.

CONCLUSION: God's ISRAEL (Those who will RULE WITH GOD) are all those in CHRIST who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD (the Church). If you are not a part of God's ISRAEL you have no part in the NEW COVENANT promise. Gentiles are now grafted in *ROMANS 11:13-17. God's ISRAEL in the NEW COVENANT are God's people who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD (the Church).

Hope this helps.
 
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BobRyan

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Jer 31:31 - Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Hint: in both covenants it is a sin to take God's name in vain thus Jeremiah can say "

Both covenants are made with Israel.

31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. 33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people."


It is not a new moral law - but a new place for it to be written... on tablets of the human heart instead of tablets of stone. There is nothing in Jeremiah 31:31-33 about a law that is not the law at sinal -- rather it is a covenant "an agreement" that includes the law written in the heart.


I posted God saying that He did not make this covenant with the fathers before Moses but only with the Children of Israel.

The covenant not made with other nations was God's covenant to make Israel a great nation and to make them his witnesses.

But the idea that all mankind was supposed to take God's name in vain -- and only Israel was not supposed to do it... is flawed. As I am sure you will agree.
 
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BobRyan

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Nov 21, 2008
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Good post Bob, where have you been? Nice to see you :wave:

Thanks -- glad to be posting here.

I started a thread on '1000 years in heaven' on the general theology section about the millennium that has taken off gang-busters.

Monday at 8:09 PM #1
 
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