God's will

[JM]

How do you determine what is historical narrative and what isn’t?

Peace,

j

I most certainly do believe in the inspiration of Scripture, and that includes the book of Genesis, but that does not mean that Satan was inspired by God when he said to the woman, "You surely will not die! (Gen. 3:2), nor does it mean that Joseph was inspired by God when he said to his brothers,

"Please come closer to me." And they came closer. And he said, "I am your brother Joseph, whom you sold into Egypt. Now do not be grieved or angry with yourselves, because you sold me here, for God sent me before you to preserve life. For the famine has been in the land these two years, and there are still five years in which there will be neither plowing nor harvesting. God sent me before you to preserve for you a remnant in the earth, and to keep you alive by a great deliverance. Now, therefore, it was not you who sent me here, but God; and He has made me a father to Pharaoh and lord of all his household and ruler over all the land of Egypt.” (Gen. 45:4-8, NASB, 1995)

We find here in Genesis 45 an historical narrative in which Moses describes the conversation of a man with his brothers. This man, Joseph, is simply giving his own personal interpretation of why he had been taken to Egypt, and this narrative does not tell us whether or not he actually believed the interpretation or if he was simply giving it to make his brothers feel less guilty for what they had done to him. And even if we assume, without the any evidence to support the assumption, that Joseph really believed that every part of the evil scheme against him on the part of his brothers was part of God’s plan for him, nowhere in this narrative do we find even the most remote suggestion that Joseph believed that in every case the will of God is carried out.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

Atrocities happen because men are evil and God has wisely determined that they will serve His purpose. Could He not keep them from happening if it wasn't according to His purpose?

Adolph Hitler believed it was the will of God for him to exterminate the Jews from the earth. The emperor of Japan believed that it was the will of God for Japan to bomb Peal Harbor on Sunday morning, 18 days before Christmas in 1941. Some radical Muslims believed it was the will of God for them to hijack two commercial airliners and fly them into the Twin Towers of World Trade Center on September 11, 2001. Were all of these plans and acts according to the purpose of God? No, absolutely not!

 

[PrincetonGuy]

All of history was perfectly planned out and ordained in every detail to both bring the world to that appointed time when the Savior would come and to picture for us what He would do and how He would do it.

I do not believe that God inspired Adam to eat the forbidden fruit so that He could send His only begotten and sinless Son into the world to suffer the incomparable agony of the cross to undo some of the damage caused by Adam eating the forbidden fruit. I believe that God told Adam not to eat of the forbidden fruit, knowing the damage the eating of it would cause, but that Adam disobeyed God, resisting His will, and ultimately brought about all of the sin and misery of the world.

Gen. 2:15. Then the LORD God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it.
16. The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely;
17. but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."

Gen. 3:1. Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, "Indeed, has God said, 'You shall not eat from any tree of the garden'?"
2. The woman said to the serpent, "From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat;
3. but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.' "
4. The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die!
5. "For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
6. When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate.

Matt. 27:27. Then the soldiers of the governor took Jesus into the Praetorium and gathered the whole Roman cohort around Him.
28. They stripped Him and put a scarlet robe on Him.
29. And after twisting together a crown of thorns, they put it on His head, and a reed in His right hand; and they knelt down before Him and mocked Him, saying, "Hail, King of the Jews!"
30. They spat on Him, and took the reed and began to beat Him on the head.
31. After they had mocked Him, they took the scarlet robe off Him and put His own garments back on Him, and led Him away to crucify Him.
32. As they were coming out, they found a man of Cyrene named Simon, whom they pressed into service to bear His cross.
The Crucifixion
33. And when they came to a place called Golgotha, which means Place of a Skull,
34. they gave Him wine to drink mixed with gall; and after tasting it, He was unwilling to drink.
35. And when they had crucified Him, they divided up His garments among themselves by casting lots.
36. And sitting down, they began to keep watch over Him there.
37. And above His head they put up the charge against Him which read, "THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS."
38. At that time two robbers *were crucified with Him, one on the right and one on the left.
39. And those passing by were hurling abuse at Him, wagging their heads
40. and saying, "You who are going to destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, save Yourself! If You are the Son of God, come down from the cross."
41. In the same way the chief priests also, along with the scribes and elders, were mocking Him and saying,
42. "He saved others; He cannot save Himself. He is the King of Israel; let Him now come down from the cross, and we will believe in Him.
43. "HE TRUSTS IN GOD; LET GOD RESCUE Him now, IF HE DELIGHTS IN HIM; for He said, 'I am the Son of God.' "
44. The robbers who had been crucified with Him were also insulting Him with the same words.
45. Now from the sixth hour darkness fell upon all the land until the ninth hour.
46. About the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "ELI, ELI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?" that is, "MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?"
47. And some of those who were standing there, when they heard it, began saying, "This man is calling for Elijah."
48. Immediately one of them ran, and taking a sponge, he filled it with sour wine and put it on a reed, and gave Him a drink.
49. But the rest of them said, "Let us see whether Elijah will come to save Him."
50. And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. (NASB, 1995)

 

[mlqurgw]

How do you determine what is historical narrative and what isn’t?

Peace,

j

It is determined by what fits his paradigm. You know, this doesn't really mean what it says so let me explain it away for you. Rather inconsistent for a strict literalist.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

I wrote,

"Sin is never a good thing and it is never the will of God!"

Mlqurgw replied,

"Unless, of course, God intends it for a good purpose."

So sin is a good thing and the will of God if God intends it for a good purpose? Such reasoning as this demonstrates the utter absurdity of the notion that God’s will always happens. Every time a man sins we have absolute and incontrovertible proof that God’s will does NOT always happen.

 

[eldermike]

I wonder what a god that can't get his way might say when in the throws of failure. It could be something like: "curses, foiled again"

 

[Seeker of the Truth]

Haha...this is great!

I love to hear people telling people that they're worshiping another "god" when both persons are getting their information straight from the Bible!

It's all in interpretation, brothers.

 

[Salamon]

So sin is a good thing and the will of God if God intends it for a good purpose? Such reasoning as this demonstrates the utter absurdity of the notion that God’s will always happens. Every time a man sins we have absolute and incontrovertible proof that God’s will does NOT always happen.

If Gods will does not always happen then is God all powerful?? Can something happen without His wanting it to?? Can God be defeated by circumstance?? If so then I must let you know that the god you believe in is not the God of the Bible!!
Here lets look at scripture!
Job 42:2-"I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee."
Daniel 4:35-"And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of earth: and none can stay His hand, or say to unto Him, What doest thou?"
Romans 11:36-"For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen"
Ephesians 1:4, 11-12-"According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love." 11-"In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will: That we should be to the praise of His glory, who first trusted in Christ."
Revelation 4:11-"You are worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power, for You created all things, and by Your will they exist and were created"
Well here are some scripture that I think show clearly that Gods will does always happen. If you believe that the Bible is inerrant then you should see that this is true! Please feel free to find an instance where Gods will does not happen, in scripture! If you think you have please share it so we can talk about it! God bless, Chris
PS- I know you have already posted some but I dont see any of those to be outside the will of God so please bring up anything you have already posted if you would like to talk about it.

 

[mlqurgw]

Haha...this is great!

I love to hear people telling people that they're worshiping another "god" when both persons are getting their information straight from the Bible!

It's all in interpretation, brothers.

No, it is in the plain, clear and indisputable statements of the Scripture. The only way a person can get from the Scriptures that God's will can be thwarted or Him be fettered is to explain away what it clearly says. The only ones who do that are the ones who refuse to bow to Him as He is. They must have a god that is like them or they will not worship Him. Either God is God setting on the Throne ruling or He isn't God. All the efforts in the world to tear Him down from His Throne are futile and will be judged for what they are.
There may be disagreements on many things that are matters of interpretation but who God is isn't one of them. You simply can't worship a false god and be a child of God.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

If Gods will does not always happen then is God all powerful??

No, of course not! He gave to man the freedom to obey Him or disobey Him.

Can something happen without His wanting it to??

Yes, of course! Men can and do sin. Every time a man sins we have absolute and incontrovertible proof that God’s will does NOT always happen.

If so then I must let you know that the god you believe in is not the God of the Bible!!

The God that I believe in is the God of the Bible, but He is not the god of your mistaken understanding of the Bible.

I do not believe that God inspired Adam to eat the forbidden fruit so that He could send His only begotten and sinless Son into the world to suffer the incomparable agony of the cross to undo some of the damage caused by Adam eating the forbidden fruit. I believe that God told Adam not to eat of the forbidden fruit, knowing the damage the eating of it would cause, but that Adam disobeyed God, resisting His will, and ultimately brought about all of the sin and misery of the world.

Gen. 2:15. Then the LORD God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it.
16. The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely;
17. but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."

Gen. 3:1. Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, "Indeed, has God said, 'You shall not eat from any tree of the garden'?"
2. The woman said to the serpent, "From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat;
3. but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.' "
4. The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die!
5. "For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
6. When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate.

Matt. 27:27. Then the soldiers of the governor took Jesus into the Praetorium and gathered the whole Roman cohort around Him.
28. They stripped Him and put a scarlet robe on Him.
29. And after twisting together a crown of thorns, they put it on His head, and a reed in His right hand; and they knelt down before Him and mocked Him, saying, "Hail, King of the Jews!"
30. They spat on Him, and took the reed and began to beat Him on the head.
31. After they had mocked Him, they took the scarlet robe off Him and put His own garments back on Him, and led Him away to crucify Him.
32. As they were coming out, they found a man of Cyrene named Simon, whom they pressed into service to bear His cross.
33. And when they came to a place called Golgotha, which means Place of a Skull,
34. they gave Him wine to drink mixed with gall; and after tasting it, He was unwilling to drink.
35. And when they had crucified Him, they divided up His garments among themselves by casting lots.
36. And sitting down, they began to keep watch over Him there.
37. And above His head they put up the charge against Him which read, "THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS."
38. At that time two robbers *were crucified with Him, one on the right and one on the left.
39. And those passing by were hurling abuse at Him, wagging their heads
40. and saying, "You who are going to destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, save Yourself! If You are the Son of God, come down from the cross."
41. In the same way the chief priests also, along with the scribes and elders, were mocking Him and saying,
42. "He saved others; He cannot save Himself. He is the King of Israel; let Him now come down from the cross, and we will believe in Him.
43. "HE TRUSTS IN GOD; LET GOD RESCUE Him now, IF HE DELIGHTS IN HIM; for He said, 'I am the Son of God.' "
44. The robbers who had been crucified with Him were also insulting Him with the same words.
45. Now from the sixth hour darkness fell upon all the land until the ninth hour.
46. About the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "ELI, ELI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?" that is, "MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?"
47. And some of those who were standing there, when they heard it, began saying, "This man is calling for Elijah."
48. Immediately one of them ran, and taking a sponge, he filled it with sour wine and put it on a reed, and gave Him a drink.
49. But the rest of them said, "Let us see whether Elijah will come to save Him."
50. And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. (NASB, 1995)

 

[Phileoeklogos]

Luk 14:28 For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it?


Did God not consider all things before He created? Could He have created so that all history would be different than we know it? Does He lack the power to create exactly what He desires? Did some outside force restrain Him from creating in the way that He so pleased?


Job 42:2 "I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

Luk 14:28For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it?


Did God not consider all things before He created? Could He have created so that all history would be different than we know it? Does He lack the power to create exactly what He desires? Did some outside force restrain Him from creating in the way that He so pleased?


Job 42:2 "I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.

In chapters 41-42 of Job, God is speaking; in chapter 42, vv. 1-6, Job is speaking. In Job 42:10 the author of the Book of Job writes,

The LORD restored the fortunes of Job when he prayed for his friends, and the LORD increased all that Job had twofold. (NASB, 1995)

Notice the word “when” (Hebrew = ב&#1468. When Job prayed for his friends, the LORD restored the fortunes of Job. Was the restoration of Job conditional upon his first praying for his friends? This verse suggests that it was.

Job was certainly not a Christian and apparently not a Jew because he was a sheikh who lived to the east of the land of Israel. In other words, Job was a heathen and thus his theology was probably somewhere off center of reality. Indeed, his theology in Job 45:2 directly contradicts Christian theology as given to us by Mark in his gospel,

6:1. Jesus went out from there and *came into His hometown; and His disciples *followed Him.
2. When the Sabbath came, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, "Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands?
3. "Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?" And they took offense at Him.
4. Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and among his own relatives and in his own household."
5. And He could do no miracle there except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them.
6. And He wondered at their unbelief. And He was going around the villages teaching. (NASB, 1995)

Mark here writes that Jesus could not perform many miracles in His hometown because the people there did not believe in him and were offended by him. Therefore, we have two choices:

1. Jesus is not God

or

2. God’s ability to perform miracles is at least sometimes conditional upon the belief of men.

I vote for choice #2.

 

[Iosias]

Yes...see Psalm 115:3

 

[Seeker of the Truth]

Yes...see Psalm 115:3

This verse doesn't aid the debate for either side.

 

[Iosias]

Psa 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

 

[Seeker of the Truth]

Psa 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

Yeah, I read it. What's your point?

This part of the sentence doesn't mean anything significant to this debate.

Maybe you should read the whole chapter?

 

[PETE_]

Yeah, I read it. What's your point?

This part of the sentence doesn't mean anything significant to this debate.

Maybe you should read the whole chapter?

a couple more

135:6

The Lord does whatever pleases him,
in the heavens and on the earth,
in the seas and all their depths.​

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=32834440#_ftn1

Job 23

13 “But he stands alone, and who can oppose him?
He does whatever he pleases.
14 He carries out his decree against me,
and many such plans he still has in store.​

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=32834440#_ftn1http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=32834440#_ftnref1http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=32834440#_ftnref1

 

[Iosias]

Yeah, I read it. What's your point?

That God is all powerful his will is not thwarted by anything or any one.

 

[holyrokker]

[bible]2 Peter 3:9[/bible]

Is it God's will for everyone to experience salvation?

Will this happen?

[bible]Ezekiel 18:23[/bible]
[bible]Ezekiel 33:11[/bible]

What is God's will here?

 

[mlqurgw]

[bible]2 Peter 3:9[/bible]

Is it God's will for everyone to experience salvation?

This is one of the most misused and ripped out of its context passages quoted against the truth of God's free grace. The "any" is referring to the "us Peter is writing to and in its context doesn't apply to all men without exception.

Will this happen?

[bible]Ezekiel 18:23[/bible]
[bible]Ezekiel 33:11[/bible]

What is God's will here?

These 2 passages in their context show the insanity of unbelief. God does not get some sadistic pleasure from the death of the wicked. The word pleasure can be translated satisfaction. Neither, when understood properly in their context, teach anything that dispute the truth that God's will is always done.

This is called prooftexting and it is not an accepted method of hermeneutics. It is making the Bible say what you want it to say without regard to either context or the teaching of the whole of Scripture.
There is a saying, " Any text taken out of its context becomes a pretext."