God's will

[Seeker of the Truth]

Maybe some of you that say that God's will always happens could defend your view?

Thanks.

 

[eldermike]

Maybe some of you that say that God's will always happens could defend your view?

Thanks.

Job 42:2


2 "I know that you can do all things;
no plan of yours can be thwarted. NIV

 

[mlqurgw]

Maybe some of you that say that God's will always happens could defend your view?

Thanks.

I did in my other post. Did you not read it?
Tell me Joseph meant when he made himself known to his brothers who sold him into slavery in Gen. 45:4-8.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

I did in my other post. Did you not read it?
Tell me Joseph meant when he made himself known to his brothers who sold him into slavery in Gen. 45:4-8.

I do not believe that the God that I know and worship could possibly be so cruel and unjust as to willfully inflict upon an innocent 17 year old boy the immense suffering that Joseph incurred as a consequence of the diabolical hatred of his brothers. Most certainly and incontrovertibly that hatred did not emanate from a holy and loving God, but from the deepest pits of darkness. The lesson to be learned here is not that God is indescribably cruel and unjust, for He is neither of these things, but that even upon suffering the most horrible of injustices the man who is wronged does not have to submit himself to feelings of hatred toward those who wronged him, but can the rather, through the grace of God, take the noble road of love and forgiveness, thanking and praising God for causing good to come out of that which could not be more horrible and unjust.

 

[JM]

I do not believe that the God that I know and worship could possibly be so cruel and unjust as to willfully inflict upon an innocent 17 year old boy the immense suffering that Joseph incurred as a consequence of the diabolical hatred of his brothers. Most certainly and incontrovertibly that hatred did not emanate from a holy and loving God, but from the deepest pits of darkness. The lesson to be learned here is not that God is indescribably cruel and unjust, for He is neither of these things, but that even upon suffering the most horrible of injustices the man who is wronged does not have to submit himself to feelings of hatred toward those who wronged him, but can the rather, through the grace of God, take the noble road of love and forgiveness, thanking and praising God for causing good to come out of that which could not be more horrible and unjust.

I still answer YES.

Death of Firstborn (11:1 - 12:36) מַכַּת בְּכוֹרוֹת

The tenth and final plague of Egypt was the death of all Egyptian first born males - no one escaped, from the lowest servant to Pharaoh's own first-born son, including first-born of livestock. This was the hardest and cruelest blow upon Egypt and the plague that finally convinced Pharaoh to submit, and let the Israelites go.


God told Moses that this plague would cause Pharaoh to send the Israelites away, and ordered him to prepare the people to leave. He also commanded Moses to teach the ritual of Pesah - the sacrifice of a lamb for God, and the eating of Matzot ("Poor-man's Bread" לחם עונ&#1497. God told Moses to order the Israelites to mark their doorpost with the lamb's blood, in order that the plague of death would pass over them.


In the middle of the night, God himself came upon Egypt and directed the Angel of Death to take the life of all the Egyptian first-born sons, including Pharaoh's own son. That night, there was a great cry in Egypt, such as had never been heard before, or ever will be heard again. However, no Israelite first-born was killed, as God "passed over" the Israelite houses.


After this, Pharaoh, furious and saddened, ordered the Israelites to go away, taking whatever they wanted. The Israelites didn't hesitate; and at the end of that night Moses led them out of Egypt, with "arms upraised".

 

[mlqurgw]

I do not believe that the God that I know and worship could possibly be so cruel and unjust as to willfully inflict upon an innocent 17 year old boy the immense suffering that Joseph incurred as a consequence of the diabolical hatred of his brothers. Most certainly and incontrovertibly that hatred did not emanate from a holy and loving God, but from the deepest pits of darkness. The lesson to be learned here is not that God is indescribably cruel and unjust, for He is neither of these things, but that even upon suffering the most horrible of injustices the man who is wronged does not have to submit himself to feelings of hatred toward those who wronged him, but can the rather, through the grace of God, take the noble road of love and forgiveness, thanking and praising God for causing good to come out of that which could not be more horrible and unjust.

And of course you did as usual and avioded my point altogether.


Gen 45:4 And Joseph said unto his brethren, Come near to me, I pray you. And they came near. And he said, I am Joseph your brother, whom ye sold into Egypt.
Gen 45:5 Now therefore be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither: for God did send me before you to preserve life.
Gen 45:6 For these two years hath the famine been in the land: and yet there are five years, in the which there shall neither be earing nor harvest.
Gen 45:7 And God sent me before you to preserve you a posterity in the earth, and to save your lives by a great deliverance.
Gen 45:8 So now it was not you that sent me hither, but God: and he hath made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house, and a ruler throughout all the land of Egypt.
Gen 45:9 Haste ye, and go up to my father, and say unto him, Thus saith thy son Joseph, God hath made me lord of all Egypt: come down unto me, tarry not:
Joseph seems to disagree with you.

 

[mlqurgw]

I still answer YES.

Just as a side note to the blood on the door posts: I find it very interesting that God said when I see the blood I will pass over you instead of when you see the blood I will pass over you.
Many folks seem to think it is the other way around.

 

[mlqurgw]

I do not believe that the God that I know and worship could possibly be so cruel and unjust as to willfully inflict upon an innocent 17 year old boy the immense suffering that Joseph incurred as a consequence of the diabolical hatred of his brothers. Most certainly and incontrovertibly that hatred did not emanate from a holy and loving God, but from the deepest pits of darkness. The lesson to be learned here is not that God is indescribably cruel and unjust, for He is neither of these things, but that even upon suffering the most horrible of injustices the man who is wronged does not have to submit himself to feelings of hatred toward those who wronged him, but can the rather, through the grace of God, take the noble road of love and forgiveness, thanking and praising God for causing good to come out of that which could not be more horrible and unjust.

You entirely miss the message of Scripture don't you. You see God reacting to what men do and therefore is controlled by men. I see a gracious and wise God working out every detail of history in such a wondrous manner that we are able to see His hand in everything. Joseph was a type of Christ and every detail of his story pictures Him. Also if Joseph had not been sold into Egypt the Hebrews would not have gotten there to be delivered from bondage. More than that we wouldn't have the glorious picture of redemption in Christ typified in the Passover. Moses, another type of Christ, would not have been needed and history would have turned out completely differently. All of history was perfectly planned out and ordained in every detail to both bring the world to that appointed time when the Savior would come and to picture for us what He would do and how He would do it.

You and I do seem to worship different Gods.

 

[DeaconDean]

You entirely miss the message of Scripture don't you. You see God reacting to what men do and therefore is controlled by men. I see a gracious and wise God working out every detail of history in such a wondrous manner that we are able to see His hand in everything. Joseph was a type of Christ and every detail of his story pictures Him. Also if Joseph had not been sold into Egypt the Hebrews would not have gotten there to be delivered from bondage. More than that we wouldn't have the glorious picture of redemption in Christ typified in the Passover. Moses, another type of Christ, would not have been needed and history would have turned out completely differently. All of history was perfectly planned out and ordained in every detail to both bring the world to that appointed time when the Savior would come and to picture for us what He would do and how He would do it.

You and I do seem to worship different Gods.

to that!

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

And of course you did as usual and avioded my point altogether.


Gen 45:4 And Joseph said unto his brethren, Come near to me, I pray you. And they came near. And he said, I am Joseph your brother, whom ye sold into Egypt.
Gen 45:5 Now therefore be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither: for God did send me before you to preserve life.
Gen 45:6 For these two years hath the famine been in the land: and yet there are five years, in the which there shall neither be earing nor harvest.
Gen 45:7 And God sent me before you to preserve you a posterity in the earth, and to save your lives by a great deliverance.
Gen 45:8 So now it was not you that sent me hither, but God: and he hath made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house, and a ruler throughout all the land of Egypt.
Gen 45:9 Haste ye, and go up to my father, and say unto him, Thus saith thy son Joseph, God hath made me lord of all Egypt: come down unto me, tarry not:
Joseph seems to disagree with you.

We find here in Genesis 45 an historical narrative in which Moses describes the conversation of a man with his brothers. This man, Joseph, is simply giving his own personal interpretation of why he had been taken to Egypt, and this narrative does not tell us whether or not he actually believed the interpretation or if he was simply giving it to make his brothers feel less guilty for what they had done to him. And even if we assume, without the any evidence to support the assumption, that Joseph really believed that every part of the evil scheme against him on the part of his brothers was part of God’s plan for him, nowhere in this narrative do we find even the most remote suggestion that Joseph believed that in every case the will of God is carried out.

I find it rather sad that some men take the narrative in the Old Testament that more than any other narrative in the Old Testament gives us a picture of true nobility in unconditional love and forgiveness and twist and distort that picture to make it appear to support a doctrine that makes God indistinguishable from the devil in his diabolical hatred of an innocent 17 year old boy, and the mastermind behind one of the most evil crimes in the history of mankind.

Adolph Hitler believed it was the will of God for him to exterminate the Jews from the earth. The emperor of Japan believed that it was the will of God for Japan to bomb Peal Harbor on Sunday morning, 18 days before Christmas in 1941. Some radical Muslims believed it was the will of God for them to hijack two commercial airliners and fly them into the Twin Towers of World Trade Center on September 11, 2001. If these and all the other atrocities committed by evil men were part of a plan concocted with God at the helm, God is an imposter—He is in reality Satan’s twin brother.

One moment Randy was looking forward to going home from Iraq and being back home in his church, but the very next moment he was feeling his right arm and both of his legs being torn off of his body, and then he realized that he had lost both of his eyes and almost all of his hearing. His face felt warm and wet and he wiped it with his left hand and learned that his skin had been blown right off of his face, even his nose and his lips were gone. After three and a half months of many surgeries and indescribable agony, Randy died.

Was it the will of God for Randy to suffer like that? Absolutely not! Was it the will of God for the 15 year old boy that made the IED (improvised explosive device) that tore apart Randy’s body to make that devise? Absolutely not! Is it the will of God that one man should sin against another? Absolutely not!

God, being God, brings good out of even the worst of atrocities, but He is not the mastermind behind any of them. The mastermind of all atrocities is Satan, and God is at war with Satan and the casualties on both sides are enormous. Those of us who are on God’s side are fighting the battle with God through praying and fasting, loving and forgiving, believing and obeying, witnessing and worshipping.

Eph. 6:10. Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might.
11. Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil.
12. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
13. Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.
14. Stand firm therefore, HAVING GIRDED YOUR LOINS WITH TRUTH, and HAVING PUT ON THE BREASTPLATE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS,
15. and having shod YOUR FEET WITH THE PREPARATION OF THE GOSPEL OF PEACE;
16. in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one.
17. And take THE HELMET OF SALVATION, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
18. With all prayer and petition pray at all times in the Spirit, and with this in view, be on the alert with all perseverance and petition for all the saints,
19. and pray on my behalf, that utterance may be given to me in the opening of my mouth, to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel,
20. for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in proclaiming it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak. (NASB, 1995)

 

[PrincetonGuy]

You entirely miss the message of Scripture don't you. You see God reacting to what men do and therefore is controlled by men.

God does react to what men do. Every one in the Bible who was punished for an evil deed and everyone who was rewarded for a good deed proves that God does react to what men do. When men sin, the will of God is thwarted and He responds to His will being thwarted. It does not, however, logically follow that God is controlled by men. There is a substantial difference between being influenced in ones response and being controlled.

I see a gracious and wise God working out every detail of history in such a wondrous manner that we are able to see His hand in everything. Joseph was a type of Christ and every detail of his story pictures Him. Also if Joseph had not been sold into Egypt the Hebrews would not have gotten there to be delivered from bondage. More than that we wouldn't have the glorious picture of redemption in Christ typified in the Passover. Moses, another type of Christ, would not have been needed and history would have turned out completely differently. All of history was perfectly planned out and ordained in every detail to both bring the world to that appointed time when the Savior would come and to picture for us what He would do and how He would do it.

You and I do seem to worship different Gods.

I see a gracious and wise God bringing good out of even the worst of atrocities, but He is not the mastermind behind any of them. The mastermind of all atrocities is Satan.

Had Adam simply yielded to the will of God in the garden, Joseph and Moses would not have become types of Christ because Christ would not have had to die on the cross to redeem a fallen race. Instead of a grotesque horror story of unimaginable suffering and slaughter, we would have story of love, peace, and total harmony.

Sin is never a good thing and it is never the will of God!

 

[eldermike]

Just as a side note to the blood on the door posts: I find it very interesting that God said when I see the blood I will pass over you instead of when you see the blood I will pass over you.
Many folks seem to think it is the other way around.

Nail, hit smack on the head!

 

[Seeker of the Truth]

I'm going to make a stretch here by saying that if God's will always happens, then we are all predestined to Heaven or Hell, without a choice.

If God's will always happens, all men and women are going to "be saved." However, that is obviously not happening/going to happen. So, God must have already said, "He can stay, he must go."

And, if that is true then God is the author of sin.

And, if God is the author of Sin, we, as sinners, are being punished because God chose for us to sin because His will must alway happen.

Isn't that a little hypocritical for God to punish us for His deeds so that some might be saved and others shall be eternally tormented?

 

[Phileoeklogos]

I'm going to make a stretch here by saying that if God's will always happens, then we are all predestined to Heaven or Hell, without a choice.

If God's will always happens, all men and women are going to "be saved." However, that is obviously not happening/going to happen. So, God must have already said, "He can stay, he must go."

And, if that is true then God is the author of sin.

And, if God is the author of Sin, we, as sinners, are being punished because God chose for us to sin because His will must alway happen.

Isn't that a little hypocritical for God to punish us for His deeds so that some might be saved and others shall be eternally tormented?

I think what is happening here is that young christian is starting to ponder the BIG questions and is finding that the answers aren't quite so simple, which is a good thing because it should lead us into worship and study, so open up that Bible and search out the matter.

 

[Seeker of the Truth]

I think what is happening here is that young christian is starting to ponder the BIG questions and is finding that the answers aren't quite so simple, which is a good thing because it should lead us into worship and study, so open up that Bible and search out the matter.

Oh, I have brother.

However, Scripture keeps telling me something completely different from what some of the Baptist here are saying, that's why I'm asking.

 

[IronWill]

I'm just want to pose a question to you all:

Does God's will always happen?

A simple "yes" or "no" will be sufficient, but I'd like to have some logical posts too (which include Scripture).

Thank yah,

CJ

Yes.

 

[mlqurgw]

We find here in Genesis 45 an historical narrative in which Moses describes the conversation of a man with his brothers. This man, Joseph, is simply giving his own personal interpretation of why he had been taken to Egypt, and this narrative does not tell us whether or not he actually believed the interpretation or if he was simply giving it to make his brothers feel less guilty for what they had done to him. And even if we assume, without the any evidence to support the assumption, that Joseph really believed that every part of the evil scheme against him on the part of his brothers was part of God’s plan for him, nowhere in this narrative do we find even the most remote suggestion that Joseph believed that in every case the will of God is carried out.

I find it rather sad that some men take the narrative in the Old Testament that more than any other narrative in the Old Testament gives us a picture of true nobility in unconditional love and forgiveness and twist and distort that picture to make it appear to support a doctrine that makes God indistinguishable from the devil in his diabolical hatred of an innocent 17 year old boy, and the mastermind behind one of the most evil crimes in the history of mankind.

Adolph Hitler believed it was the will of God for him to exterminate the Jews from the earth. The emperor of Japan believed that it was the will of God for Japan to bomb Peal Harbor on Sunday morning, 18 days before Christmas in 1941. Some radical Muslims believed it was the will of God for them to hijack two commercial airliners and fly them into the Twin Towers of World Trade Center on September 11, 2001. If these and all the other atrocities committed by evil men were part of a plan concocted with God at the helm, God is an imposter—He is in reality Satan’s twin brother.

One moment Randy was looking forward to going home from Iraq and being back home in his church, but the very next moment he was feeling his right arm and both of his legs being torn off of his body, and then he realized that he had lost both of his eyes and almost all of his hearing. His face felt warm and wet and he wiped it with his left hand and learned that his skin had been blown right off of his face, even his nose and his lips were gone. After three and a half months of many surgeries and indescribable agony, Randy died.

Was it the will of God for Randy to suffer like that? Absolutely not! Was it the will of God for the 15 year old boy that made the IED (improvised explosive device) that tore apart Randy’s body to make that devise? Absolutely not! Is it the will of God that one man should sin against another? Absolutely not!

God, being God, brings good out of even the worst of atrocities, but He is not the mastermind behind any of them. The mastermind of all atrocities is Satan, and God is at war with Satan and the casualties on both sides are enormous. Those of us who are on God’s side are fighting the battle with God through praying and fasting, loving and forgiving, believing and obeying, witnessing and worshipping.

Eph. 6:10. Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might.
11. Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil.
12. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
13. Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.
14. Stand firm therefore, HAVING GIRDED YOUR LOINS WITH TRUTH, and HAVING PUT ON THE BREASTPLATE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS,
15. and having shod YOUR FEET WITH THE PREPARATION OF THE GOSPEL OF PEACE;
16. in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one.
17. And take THE HELMET OF SALVATION, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
18. With all prayer and petition pray at all times in the Spirit, and with this in view, be on the alert with all perseverance and petition for all the saints,
19. and pray on my behalf, that utterance may be given to me in the opening of my mouth, to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel,
20. for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in proclaiming it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak. (NASB, 1995)

So then Genesis is just a history book? I see. We may get some information from it but it really isn't part of the inspired revelation. Or at least that part isn't.

You also seem to believe that God doesn't control Satan. I guess Job is just another history book.
Nebuchadnezzer sure found out who God is, Dan. 4:34,35. But I guess that is just another example of a narrative huh? I suppose God was just speaking rhetorically in Isa. 40:13-26; 43:4 and far too many other passages to list here.
Making emotional arguments against truth may convince those who, like yourself, have no understanding. Paint my God as ugly as you like, it changes nothing. God is still God and all your efforts to make Him not much different than a man is foolishness.
God makes no apologies for being God and neither will I.

God's terms of peace with the rebellious sinner who is at war with Him is not will you pretty please let me have my way so I can do for you what I want. It is surrender or die.

 

[mlqurgw]

God does react to what men do. Every one in the Bible who was punished for an evil deed and everyone who was rewarded for a good deed proves that God does react to what men do. When men sin, the will of God is thwarted and He responds to His will being thwarted. It does not, however, logically follow that God is controlled by men. There is a substantial difference between being influenced in ones response and being controlled.

If what you posit here is true then God is constantly having to change. He is running around putting out fires, " Oops, man did something I didn't want. Gotta go fix this." That is the description of a man not of God. Whatever God doesn't control must control Him. Whatever controls Him is God. All men naturally desire a god they can control and have made one for themselves from the forest of their depraved imaginations. But he isn't God. The god you describe wouldn't hurt a fly and couldn't save a knat.

I see a gracious and wise God bringing good out of even the worst of atrocities, but He is not the mastermind behind any of them. The mastermind of all atrocities is Satan.

The old " the devil made me do it" argument. Evil exists because men are evil. It flows from the heart of men, Jer.17:9; Matt. 15:19,20. Don't try to put the blame on Satan or God.
Atrocities happen because men are evil and God has wisely determined that they will serve His purpose. Could He not keep them from happening if it wasn't according to His purpose? Prov. 16:1,4,9,33; Psa. 76:10

Had Adam simply yielded to the will of God in the garden, Joseph and Moses would not have become types of Christ because Christ would not have had to die on the cross to redeem a fallen race. Instead of a grotesque horror story of unimaginable suffering and slaughter, we would have story of love, peace, and total harmony.

Then we would be like the angels, having no understanding of the mercy of God. The second Person of the Trinity would have not been who He is and the gracious and merciful God would be unknown.

Sin is never a good thing and it is never the will of God!

Unless, of course, God intends it for a good purpose.

I will no longer answer any of your nonsense concerning my God. It is evident that you don't know Him and don't want to.

 

[mlqurgw]

For those who read my responses here: Because of the necessity, given the negative accusations against God, of having to respond in a negative manner it would be easy to think I am focused on the negative. That just isn't the case at all. I would much rather talk about the goodness and mercy of God. I love nothing more than telling people about Christ and His work. God is a God of love. He is gracious and merciful beyond our highest imaginations. The whole of Scripture is a revelation of God's redemptive purpose in Christ. I delight to show people Christ in the Scriptures. Please take my responses as they are intended. They are only answers of a polemical nature to a polemical argument.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

So then Genesis is just a history book? I see. We may get some information from it but it really isn't part of the inspired revelation. Or at least that part isn't.

I most certainly do believe in the inspiration of Scripture, and that includes the book of Genesis, but that does not mean that Satan was inspired by God when he said to the woman, "You surely will not die! (Gen. 3:2), nor does it mean that Joseph was inspired by God when he said to his brothers,

"Please come closer to me." And they came closer. And he said, "I am your brother Joseph, whom you sold into Egypt. Now do not be grieved or angry with yourselves, because you sold me here, for God sent me before you to preserve life. For the famine has been in the land these two years, and there are still five years in which there will be neither plowing nor harvesting. God sent me before you to preserve for you a remnant in the earth, and to keep you alive by a great deliverance. Now, therefore, it was not you who sent me here, but God; and He has made me a father to Pharaoh and lord of all his household and ruler over all the land of Egypt.” (Gen. 45:4-8, NASB, 1995)

We find here in Genesis 45 an historical narrative in which Moses describes the conversation of a man with his brothers. This man, Joseph, is simply giving his own personal interpretation of why he had been taken to Egypt, and this narrative does not tell us whether or not he actually believed the interpretation or if he was simply giving it to make his brothers feel less guilty for what they had done to him. And even if we assume, without the any evidence to support the assumption, that Joseph really believed that every part of the evil scheme against him on the part of his brothers was part of God’s plan for him, nowhere in this narrative do we find even the most remote suggestion that Joseph believed that in every case the will of God is carried out.