God's TEN Commandments: Keep them? or break them?

[Sophrosyne]

But they quote Bible about it all the time. One of them even quoted the whole verse recently.

yes, and they don't realize that sin goes well beyond the Law itself and that exalting the Law as the method of measuring sin puts it as an idol unto God when Jesus himself equates sin going from actual deed to even thoughts.

 

[MJohn7]

Here is something that legalists cannot fathom... that sin is not dependent upon the Law.

But they quote Bible about it all the time. One of them even quoted the whole verse recently.

sin is not dependent upon the Law.

It can be in the context of Romans 14 and 1 Co 8:12


But setting the law completely aside let me suggest that its the commands of Christ and the apostles that show us our sin.

James 4:13 Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will[g] go to such and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a profit”; 14 whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes away. 15 Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we shall live and do this or that.” 16 But now you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil.

17 Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin.

 

[from scratch]

It can be in the context of Romans 14 and 1 Co 8:12


But setting the law completely aside let me suggest that its the commands of Christ and the apostles that show us our sin.

James 4:13 Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will[g] go to such and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a profit”; 14 whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes away. 15 Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we shall live and do this or that.” 16 But now you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil.

17 Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin.

The commands of Jesus Christ aren't what the Bible calls the law.

 

[MJohn7]

The commands of Jesus Christ aren't what the Bible calls the law.

Didnt i already say that? Ive already stated that multuple times, and my post should not have lead you to think otherwise. You're wearing me out. Do you only wish to argue?

 

[BobRyan]

1Cor 10 "They all drank from a SPIRITUAL Rock ...and that Rock was Christ".



I find your logic illusive.


Jesus is the God of both the NT and the OT. The OT saints were Christians in that sense.

1 Cor 10
1 For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 and all ate the same spiritual food; 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual Rock (Petra) which followed them; and the rock was Christ.

"The Gospel was preached to US just as it was to THEM also" Heb 4:1-2

The only way to remove Christ from the OT is to imagine a "Christless Christ" in 1Cor 10 and a "Christless Gospel" in Heb 4:1-2

"The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3.

I do not imagine such christless models to be supported in the Bible. My guess is that you will agree with this.

That spiritual rock isn't Jesus Christ. You don't understand the word Christ is a title and not a name.So what. God isn't logical either.

As it turns out - I am a Christian so parsing words between Christ and Christians or between Jesus Christ and Christians appears to have no meaning in your post.

Not sure why you would go there.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The commands of Jesus Christ aren't what the Bible calls the law.

In Mark 7:6-13 Christ was very opposed to breaking the Commandment that the Bible calls "the Law" and Christ called it "the WORD of God" as we all noticed.

So also in Eph 6:1-2 Paul does not quote Christ - but rather Moses when HE points to the 5th commandment as binding on all the saints.

I think we all knew that.

in Christ,
Bob

 

[BobRyan]

One side of the argument on this thread would admit to the Bible fact that God's TEN Commandments still apply to the saints today - and included in the LAW of GOD - that is "written on the mind and heart" under the Jer 31:31-33 New Covenant quoted in Hebrews 8.

Many Bible students have also notice that Jesus said in the NT - the Ten Commandments are the "WORD of God" in places like Mark 7:6-13.

==================================

Paul makes that same case in Eph 6:1-4 when he quotes Moses verbatim (actually he is quoting God in
Exodus 20:12) and applies this as NT law for the saint. Paul never argues that the scriptures are dead to NT saint and only what Paul writes should be listened to - and this is evidenced by the points below --

Here is a place to make your case then --

[FONT=&quot]
1. Paul never commands gentiles to "Love God WITH ALL your heart".
2. Paul never commands gentiles "not to take God's name in vain"
3. Paul never commands gentiles to ignore the writings of Moses.
4. Paul DOES tell gentiles that Moses' writings are still authoritative scripture in 1Cor 9:8-9 and 1Tim 5:18 and binding as being "Law" and as being "scripture".
5. Paul quotes Moses TEN Commandments Eph 6:2. Full 5th commandment
6. Paul DOES teach that there remains therefore a "Sabbath rest for the people of God" Hebrews 4.
7. Paul DOES tell gentiles that "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of GOD" 1 Cor 7:19
8. Paul does tell gentiles "it is not the HEARERS of the Law that are just before God but the DOERS of the Law will be justifIED... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge all mankind" Rom 2:13-16
9. Paul DOES ask that gentiles consider the doctrine of LAW "Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law of God" Rom 3:31
10. Paul DOES tell gentiles that it is only the lost who will "not subject themselves to the LAw of God neither indeed CAN they" Rom 8:6-8
11. Paul DOES tell gentiles that "The Law" is in fact "The LAW of Moses" and is to be used for testing doctrine 1Cor 9:8-9
12. Paul DOES tell gentiles that the OT text is to be used for Doctrine 2Tim 3:16​

​

[/FONT]

A number of other sources also affirm the fact that the TEN Commandments apply to the saints today and have applied since Eden - .


The "Baptist Confession of Faith"
The "Westminster Confession of Faith"
The Catholic Catechism
D.L. Moody
R.C Sproul
Andy Stanley
Thomas Watson


Here is how one of those sunday keeping sources present full support of the TEN Commandments.

==========================================

[FONT=&quot]CH Spurgeon[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
“The Perpetuity of the Law of God”
[/FONT]
Very great mistakes have been made about the law. Not long ago there were those about us who affirmed that the law is utterly abrogated and abolished, and they openly taught that believers were not bound to make the moral law the rule of their lives. What would have been sin in other men they counted to be no sin in themselves. From such Antinomianism as that may God deliver us. We are not under the law as the method of salvation, but we delight to see the law in the hand of Christ, and desire to obey the Lord in all things. Others have been met with who have taught that Jesus mitigated and softened down the law, and they have in effect said that the perfect law of God was too hard for imperfect beings, and therefore God has given us a milder and easier rule. These tread dangerously upon the verge of terrible error, although we believe that they are little aware of it.

Section 19 of the Baptist Confession of Faith .

Section 19
. The Law of God

• God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.

• The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the TEN COMMANDMENTS, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.

• Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.

• To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.

• The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it.

• Although true believers are not under the law as a covenant of works, to be justified or condemned by it, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, because as a rule of life it informs them of the will of God and their duty and directs and binds them to walk accordingly. It also reveals and exposes the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts and lives, and using it for self-examination they may come to greater conviction of sin, greater humility and greater hatred of their sin. They will also gain a clearer sight of their need of Christ and the perfection of His own obedience. It is of further use to regenerate people to restrain their corruptions, because of the way in which it forbids sin. The threatenings of the law serve to show what their sins actually deserve, and what troubles may be expected in this life because of these sins even by regenerate people who are freed from the curse and undiminished rigours of the law. The promises connected with the law also show believers God's approval of obedience, and what blessings they may expect when the law is kept and obeyed, though blessing will not come to them because they have satisfied the law as a covenant of works. If a man does good and refrains from evil simply because the law encourages to the good and deters him from the evil, that is no evidence that he is under the law rather than under grace.

• The aforementioned uses of the law are not contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but they sweetly comply with it, as the Spirit of Christ subdues and enables the will of man to do freely and cheerfully those things which the will of God, which is revealed in the law, requires to be done.

=================== end quote



​

And of course non-Sunday keeping sources would make a similar argument about the TEN Commandments still applying to the saints today. - those groups would include the Seventh-day Baptists, and the Seventh-day Adventists.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[from scratch]

Didnt i already say that? Ive already stated that multuple times, and my post should not have lead you to think otherwise. You're wearing me out. Do you only wish to argue?

That's not what shows us our sin. The law shows us our sin. Neither Jesus nor Paul's purpose was to show us our sin.

 

[from scratch]

As it turns out - I am a Christian so parsing words between Christ and Christians or between Jesus Christ and Christians appears to have no meaning in your post.

Not sure why you would go there.

in Christ,

Bob

The way in which you use 1 Cor 10 indicates you mean Jesus is the one Israel followed in the desert. That simply isn't true. Read the Bible and read only what's there and not your opinion or that of others.

 

[from scratch]

In Mark 7:6-13 Christ was very opposed to breaking the Commandment that the Bible calls "the Law" and Christ called it "the WORD of God" as we all noticed.

So also in Eph 6:1-2 Paul does not quote Christ - but rather Moses when HE points to the 5th commandment as binding on all the saints.

I think we all knew that.

in Christ,
Bob

I wonder how you come to that conclusion about Jesus from MK 7.

But then you'll stop at nothing to prove your point in the face of many passages indicating other wise.

Both Jesus and Paul opposed sin. Neither supported the law. Hey even the Gospel of Jon says that in 1:17. Jesus didn't say that and neither di Paul. Is it the truth or not? Moses and Jesus are contrasted in the verse.

 

[from scratch]

One side of the argument on this thread would admit to the Bible fact that God's TEN Commandments still apply to the saints today - and included in the LAW of GOD - that is "written on the mind and heart" under the Jer 31:31-33 New Covenant quoted in Hebrews 8.

Yes and no matter how many times the phrase "Not according to.." mentioned
in both passages are brought to your attention you refuse to acknowledge them. Why? I think it is because it doesn't fit you paradigm and agenda much like other fine passages even including statement by Moses and Jesus.

Many Bible students have also notice that Jesus said in the NT - the Ten Commandments are the "WORD of God" in places like Mark 7:6-13.

==================================

Paul makes that same case in Eph 6:1-4 when he quotes Moses verbatim (actually he is quoting God in
Exodus 20:12) and applies this as NT law for the saint. Paul never argues that the scriptures are dead to NT saint and only what Paul writes should be listened to - and this is evidenced by the points below --






A number of other sources also affirm the fact that the TEN Commandments apply to the saints today and have applied since Eden - .


The "Baptist Confession of Faith"
The "Westminster Confession of Faith"
The Catholic Catechism
D.L. Moody
R.C Sproul
Andy Stanley
Thomas Watson


Here is how one of those sunday keeping sources present full support of the TEN Commandments.

==========================================

[FONT=&quot]CH Spurgeon[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
“The Perpetuity of the Law of God”
[/FONT]
Very great mistakes have been made about the law. Not long ago there were those about us who affirmed that the law is utterly abrogated and abolished, and they openly taught that believers were not bound to make the moral law the rule of their lives. What would have been sin in other men they counted to be no sin in themselves. From such Antinomianism as that may God deliver us. We are not under the law as the method of salvation, but we delight to see the law in the hand of Christ, and desire to obey the Lord in all things. Others have been met with who have taught that Jesus mitigated and softened down the law, and they have in effect said that the perfect law of God was too hard for imperfect beings, and therefore God has given us a milder and easier rule. These tread dangerously upon the verge of terrible error, although we believe that they are little aware of it.

Section 19 of the Baptist Confession of Faith .

Section 19
. The Law of God

• God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.

• The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the TEN COMMANDMENTS, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.

• Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.

• To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.

• The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it.

• Although true believers are not under the law as a covenant of works, to be justified or condemned by it, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, because as a rule of life it informs them of the will of God and their duty and directs and binds them to walk accordingly. It also reveals and exposes the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts and lives, and using it for self-examination they may come to greater conviction of sin, greater humility and greater hatred of their sin. They will also gain a clearer sight of their need of Christ and the perfection of His own obedience. It is of further use to regenerate people to restrain their corruptions, because of the way in which it forbids sin. The threatenings of the law serve to show what their sins actually deserve, and what troubles may be expected in this life because of these sins even by regenerate people who are freed from the curse and undiminished rigours of the law. The promises connected with the law also show believers God's approval of obedience, and what blessings they may expect when the law is kept and obeyed, though blessing will not come to them because they have satisfied the law as a covenant of works. If a man does good and refrains from evil simply because the law encourages to the good and deters him from the evil, that is no evidence that he is under the law rather than under grace.

• The aforementioned uses of the law are not contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but they sweetly comply with it, as the Spirit of Christ subdues and enables the will of man to do freely and cheerfully those things which the will of God, which is revealed in the law, requires to be done.

=================== end quote



​

And of course non-Sunday keeping sources would make a similar argument about the TEN Commandments still applying to the saints today. - those groups would include the Seventh-day Baptists, and the Seventh-day Adventists.

in Christ,

Bob

Look I don't care about your out of context prof texts. Bugkiller showed you from the same sources what you intend to show (prove) isn't the intent of your sources. For instance I think its Stanley who says the Christian Sabbath is Sunday. Do I need to fetch the quote again?

If I want spam I'll go to the grocery store. I also throw out broken records and those that keep skipping.

 

[dcalling]

This is a hard question, I tend to agree with BobRyan, that the 10 COMMANDMENTS is still in effect. The reason is all of them (except observe the Sabbath) clearly needs to be observed, i.e. Love God, don't kill.

The Sabbath one is really hard, I try my best not to do any company work on Sunday, not to buy anything on Sunday, but I do cook, drive, use internet. And I do it on Sunday instead of Saturday, because I believe as long as we just pick a day, the exact date doesn't matter, I am "observing the Sabbath" once a week None of church members I know do this, but I think that is fine too, because the thief who died with Jesus and went to heaven most likely didn't observe one day of Sabbath.

 

[BobRyan]

This is a hard question, I tend to agree with BobRyan, that the 10 COMMANDMENTS is still in effect. The reason is all of them (except observe the Sabbath) clearly needs to be observed, i.e. Love God, don't kill.

The Sabbath one is really hard, I try my best not to do any company work on Sunday, not to buy anything on Sunday, but I do cook, drive, use internet. And I do it on Sunday instead of Saturday, because I believe as long as we just pick a day, the exact date doesn't matter, I am "observing the Sabbath" once a week None of church members I know do this, but I think that is fine too, because the thief who died with Jesus and went to heaven most likely didn't observe one day of Sabbath.

Though some will remain at war with God's TEN Commandments - many will agree with you that the Ten Commandments are still binding on the saints today just as they always have been -- such as those listed above -


The "Baptist Confession of Faith"
The "Westminster Confession of Faith"
The Catholic Catechism
D.L. Moody
R.C Sproul
Andy Stanley
Thomas Watson

 

[BobRyan]

duplicate post

 

[BobRyan]

I wonder how you come to that conclusion about Jesus from MK 7.

I wonder how you come to that conclusion about Jesus from MK 7.
.

i think the explanation has been posted around a dozen times so far - has to do with the words actually in the text -- will quote the text here for those not familiar with it

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Here when Christ quotes from the TEN Commandments he refers to them as the "Commandment of God" and also the "Word of God". At no point does Christ say "feel free to break all of them - except for this one".

i think we all knew that.

In Christ,

Bob
in Christ,

Bob

 

[Sophrosyne]

This is a hard question, I tend to agree with BobRyan, that the 10 COMMANDMENTS is still in effect. The reason is all of them (except observe the Sabbath) clearly needs to be observed, i.e. Love God, don't kill.

The Sabbath one is really hard, I try my best not to do any company work on Sunday, not to buy anything on Sunday, but I do cook, drive, use internet. And I do it on Sunday instead of Saturday, because I believe as long as we just pick a day, the exact date doesn't matter, I am "observing the Sabbath" once a week None of church members I know do this, but I think that is fine too, because the thief who died with Jesus and went to heaven most likely didn't observe one day of Sabbath.

You aren't agreeing with anyone as the Sabbath command is about keeping Saturday not Sunday so that makes you breaking the 10 commandments. The 10 are part of the Mosaic Law inseparable from the rest of the Law contrary to what people want to teach of them so by demanding or trying to "keep" the 10 you must also keep the dietary laws, fabric/clothing laws, cleanliness laws, and other laws listed in Leviticus plus you must be circumsized and attend a Jewish Temple too. If you aren't doing all of this properly God sees you as a sinner for even attempting it.
Making your "Sabbath" Sunday is obliging yourself to sin. Christians are not required to keep Mosaic Law including the Sabbath.

 

[MJohn7]

That's not what shows us our sin. The law shows us our sin. Neither Jesus nor Paul's purpose was to show us our sin.

What did paul teach the Gentiles to repent from then? Did he say they were sinners for not observing Sabbath? No.



Eph 5:15 Be very careful, then, how you live—not as unwise but as wise, 16 making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. 17 Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord’s will is.

James 4:17 Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin.

 

[Cribstyl]

In Mark 7:6-13 Christ was very opposed to breaking the Commandment that the Bible calls "the Law" and Christ called it "the WORD of God" as we all noticed.

So also in Eph 6:1-2 Paul does not quote Christ - but rather Moses when HE points to the 5th commandment as binding on all the saints.

I think we all knew that.

in Christ,
Bob

In case you wasn't listening, Scratch said, the commandments of Jesus are not the ten commandments. A direct response would be appropriate. Somehow you're running away from reasonable dialog by raising endless false arguments.

You're getting direct responses to your statements..........but you cant handle the truth.
When Jesus said; "...making the word of God of none effect.", was He qouting from the ten commandments? NO, He was quoting from the other places in the 5books of Moses which is also called the law.

Anyone who reads Eph5 before chapter 6 can see the list of commandments that Paul was giving was not exclussively from Moses but rather from Christ. You have an agenda to cherry pick what Paul said about honoring father and mother.

 

[from scratch]

This is a hard question, I tend to agree with BobRyan, that the 10 COMMANDMENTS is still in effect. The reason is all of them (except observe the Sabbath) clearly needs to be observed, i.e. Love God, don't kill.

The Sabbath one is really hard, I try my best not to do any company work on Sunday, not to buy anything on Sunday, but I do cook, drive, use internet. And I do it on Sunday instead of Saturday, because I believe as long as we just pick a day, the exact date doesn't matter, I am "observing the Sabbath" once a week None of church members I know do this, but I think that is fine too, because the thief who died with Jesus and went to heaven most likely didn't observe one day of Sabbath.

So I'd like to ask you if you're supporting the Ten Commandments or really not supporting a lifestyle of sin?

 

[from scratch]

Though some will remain at war with God's TEN Commandments - many will agree with you that the Ten Commandments are still binding on the saints today just as they always have been -- such as those listed above -


The "Baptist Confession of Faith"
The "Westminster Confession of Faith"
The Catholic Catechism
D.L. Moody
R.C Sproul
Andy Stanley
Thomas Watson

Who is at war with the Ten Commandments? I think you try your bestest to show everyone who doesn't keep the 7th day Sabbath is. Paul even says we're delivered from them in Romans 7.