God's Revelation is Real and Proven!

Jord Simcha

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Many many times. I was a christian for many years. It was studying the Bible that lead me to see that Christianity was unreasonable and that my beliefs were based on bad evidence. I did not want to be an atheist, I begged God many times to reveal that he is real to me. Well as you can infer He never showed me any such evidence.
That's odd and on God.
Do you have any evidence that might convince others?
No, just myself.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Apologetics is not useless, since there is plenty of reasons to believe in God, however that is not usually what makes us meet God.
There are reasons to believe in anything. There are reasons to believe in Santa and Big Foot. What we should look for are good reasons based on high standards of evidence, logic and reason since these have demonstrated to be the best methods to find truth.
 
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Jord Simcha

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Ok, do you have any good reasons for others to believe?
I got some very interesting things found in scripture that I find very convincing that God must have written it.

Here's one in a shorter video:

(per forum rules: the video is about the first word of the Bible in Hebrew, Berasheet, in which a prophecy of Jesus Christ is found.)


if you like it I have some more videos like this.
 
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NBB

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There are reasons to believe in anything. There are reasons to believe in Santa and Big Foot. What we should look for are good reasons based on high standards of evidence, logic and reason since these have demonstrated to be the best methods to find truth.

its pretty apparent and logic that this world seems to have been made on purpose, things like evolution etc cloud your judgment. Just meditate on the whole universe.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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I got some very interesting things found in scripture that I find very convincing that God must have written it.

Here's one in a shorter video:

(per forum rules: the video is about the first word of the Bible in Hebrew, Berasheet, in which a prophecy of Jesus Christ is found.)


if you like it I have some more videos like this.
Sorry this is not convincing. Here is why.

bayith Strongs - 1004 - House (court, door, dungeon, family, forth of, great as would contain, hangings)
rosh Strongs 7218 - Head (band, captain, company)
a-luph Strongs 441 - Chief (captain, duke, chief friend, governor, guide, ox.)
Shen Strongs 8127 - Tooth (crag, forefront, ivory, sharp)
Yad Strongs 3027 - Hand (be able, about, armholes, at, axletree, because of, beside, border)
Tav Strongs 8420 - a mark (very froward thing, perverse thing, desire, signature)

How do you get:

The Son of God is destroyed by his own hand on the cross.?
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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its pretty apparent and logic that this world seems to have been made on purpose, things like evolution etc cloud your judgment. Just meditate on the whole universe.
Evolution has not clouded my judgement. There are excellent reasons to believe evolution happened. Like overwhelming evidence.

How will meditation provide truth?
 
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cvanwey

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I don't see the point in that, tbh.

But if you want to pray the same as I did, I encourage you to ask God for the Holy Spirit. :)

For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 1 Corinthians 1:21

Whose testimony is right is for you to find out. God is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.

God does not seem to want to demonstrate His existence, beyond justified reasonable doubt. I can continue furnishing video after video after video of 'God reaching people'. If God merely made an entire row levitate, or, maybe gave the exact same revelation to many at the same time - whom could all corroborate, then we would not still be here, decades later, seeing such videos, while still wondering which ones are authentic 'God encounters', if ANY?

It's likely all of these encounters can just as easily be chalked up to self-manifestation.?.?
 
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cvanwey

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....and this is the moment I've been waiting for, cvanway. Now you're getting it! Now you're getting it!

Funny

You and me both. Although, I don't think we can thank WLC alone.

True. But he is arguably the biggest apologist, and admits revelation is the be-all-end-all.... I just find that he is now dishonest, in not leading with this argument, verses acting like 'contact' is the '6th argument' to use, and not the '1st' and only....

As far as I can tell, where something like 'method' may be involved, there's only hermeneutical PRAXIS to consider, and that belongs mainly on the "Human side" of biblical epistemology. The closest thing you're going to have to method on the "God side" of biblical epistemology is the willingness to pray and to continue praying for some kind of providential arrangement from God, on God's terms.
Needless to say, if what I describe above regarding both the 'human side' and the 'God side' of biblical epistemology doesn't generate any feelings of interest, then that person is..................existentially out of luck.

This portion of your response looks to 'go against' Scripture? God revealed to Paul, Thomas, and many from the OT. God even states His presence will also be known to all. Therefore, if God wishes to remain hidden in the shadows at times, it seems it is because He chooses it...?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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True. But he is arguably the biggest apologist, and admits revelation is the be-all-end-all.... I just find that he is now dishonest, in not leading with this argument, verses acting like 'contact' is the '6th argument' to use, and not the '1st' and only....
Ok. But I'm not sure what the size of his book sales has to do with the truth quality of his statements.

This portion of your response looks to 'go against' Scripture? God revealed to Paul, Thomas, and many from the OT. God even states His presence will also be known to all. Therefore, if God wishes to remain hidden in the shadows at times, it seems it is because He chooses it...?

Actually, I feel this portion of my response explains the biblical epistemology which we can all see at work in Scripture, but you can instead say whatever you think it "looks" like to you, if you prefer. Besides, it's not as if I expect you to see what I see in Scripture since you (and a number of skeptics and atheists here) haven't studied what I've studied. ;) No, you apparently have been spending your time reading WLC, I guess.
 
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cvanwey

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Ok. But I'm not sure what the size of his book sales has to do with the truth quality of his statements.

Can I use this response the next time you try to quote an author? :)

My point is he seems to represent a large majority in apologetics, (maybe even more). 'Apologetics' seems virtually meaningless to truly discuss.

Actually, I feel this portion of my response explains the biblical epistemology which we can all see at work in Scripture, but you can instead say whatever you think it "looks" like to you, if you prefer. Besides, it's not as if I expect you to see what I see in Scripture since you (and a number of skeptics and atheists here) haven't studied what I've studied. ;) No, you apparently have been spending your time reading WLC, I guess.

Nice attempt in deflection here :) I mentioned the Bible here, and nothing more.

"God revealed to Paul, Thomas, and many from the OT. God even states His presence will also be known to all. Therefore, if God wishes to remain hidden in the shadows at times, it seems it is because He chooses it...?"

Is my above observations misinformed? Does God not say He will reveal to all? Does God not claim He has revealed to some already? Does God not even insinuate that all know He exists, but may choose rebellion or are blocked by sin? If I am 'out of luck', seems as though it is God whom chooses this fate, not the would-be believer.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Can I use this response the next time you try to quote an author? :)
Sure. Although, I'm not sure how your application of this kind of response to my chosen authors will be analogous to what we're referring to here about the quality of arguments.

My point is he seems to represent a large majority in apologetics, (maybe even more). 'Apologetics' seems virtually meaningless to truly discuss.
Not really. WLC is just popular and fits with the Evangelical (mainly Baptists and Congregationalist type theology), and he thereby gets a big platform since he has headed his own Apologetics Alliance. But again, a large number of subscribers and prevalent popularity don't determine truth.


Nice attempt in deflection here :) I mentioned the Bible here, and nothing more.
What about it?

"God revealed to Paul, Thomas, and many from the OT. God even states His presence will also be known to all. Therefore, if God wishes to remain hidden in the shadows at times, it seems it is because He chooses it...?"
Uh...............are you yourself here? Please don't just lay down quotes without citation or at least some indication of who said it. This is really unacceptable in my book; it's needless, and unhelpful, and kind of confusion, really.


Is my above observations misinformed? Does God not say He will reveal to all? Does God not claim He has revealed to some already? Does God not even insinuate that all know He exists, but may choose rebellion or are blocked by sin? If I am 'out of luck', seems as though it is God whom chooses this fate, not the would-be believer.
I just hate playing 5,000 Question Frenzy .........

...... but apparently you atheists love it.

My answer to you will be essentially the same as that of Paul and Pascal (and Jesus, too, really :D).
 
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cvanwey

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Sure. Although, I'm not sure how your application of this kind of response to my chosen authors will be analogous to what we're referring to here about the quality of arguments.

Not really. WLC is just popular and fits with the Evangelical (mainly Baptists and Congregationalist type theology), and he thereby gets a big platform since he has headed his own Apologetics Alliance. But again, a large number of subscribers and prevalent popularity don't determine truth.


He admits all other arguments are [fake arguments]. The (only) argument which seems to truly matter, for him, (as well as many, most), is instead anecdotal claims of contact from the Holy Spirit.

You appear the rare exception to this rule??? So far? :)


What about it?

Um, I mentioned nothing of WLC here, only the Bible.


Uh...............are you yourself here? Please don't just lay down quotes without citation or at least some indication of who said it. This is really unacceptable in my book; it's needless, and unhelpful, and kind of confusion, really.


I thought we were past the 'proof' that we both have read the Bible. No? Okay:

- God revealed to Paul
"As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?" ... "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied. "Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do."

- God revealed to Thomas "A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.

- God states His presence is known to all "The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools"

- God states all will have no doubt "For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God."

So when you assert some are 'out of luck', I beg to differ. God states all know He exists. Furthermore, God states that all will have no excuse.

I state if some currently still has doubt, it is BECAUSE God chooses, not the human.

So if an atheist is an atheist, is it because God chose not to reveal to that person. And furthermore, according to the Bible, the atheist is not really an atheist anyways, but is instead merely either being stubborn or are clouded by sin.



I just hate playing 5,000 Question Frenzy .........

...... but apparently you atheists love it.

My turn... I don't know about others, but I know you seem to like avoiding direct questions :)
 
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2PhiloVoid

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He admits all other arguments are [fake arguments]. The (only) argument which seems to truly matter, for him, (as well as many, most), is instead anecdotal claims of contact from the Holy Spirit.

You appear the rare exception to this rule??? So far? :)
Oh, I don't know that I'm all that exceptional. You have read Pascal, too, right? In some ways, they have some similarity with WLC (and Paul) in relying on the 'witness' of the Holy Spirit. And let's just say, in that way, I'm not exactly like them since I never really assume that the thoughts in my little head are from the Holy Spirit (other than maybe those that come via what I read in the bible?) ....................... :)

Um, I mentioned nothing of WLC here, only the Bible.
Oh, ok. Sometimes it's not clear what you're referencing as you go along.


I thought we were past the 'proof' that we both have read the Bible. No? Okay:

- God revealed to Paul
"As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?" ... "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied. "Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do."

- God revealed to Thomas "A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.

- God states His presence is known to all "The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools"

- God states all will have no doubt "For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God."
To my mind, quoting a few verses from the Bible doesn't prove that you've read it or that you've understood it.

So when you assert some are 'out of luck', I beg to differ. God states all know He exists. Furthermore, God states that all will have no excuse.
Does God state this? Where? Isn't it really Paul who states this and (unfortunately for us) doesn't really fully explicate what the whole process of "God filling in the whole of humanity with knowledge of Himself" as actually is? So, to my mind, not only to you beg to differ, you beg the question ...


Moreover, and if we begin with Pascal, it's not hard to understand that what you're attempting to point out in a grade school fashion isn't the whole story and is much more the exception than the rule; not only that, but Paul's case was constituted of him seeing Jesus---Paul didn't see "God In His Essential, Physical Fullness."

I state if some currently still has doubt, it is BECAUSE God chooses, not the human.
Baloney! Save me from your trumped up spin on Reformed Theology. Thank you!


So if an atheist is an atheist, is it because God chose not to reveal to that person. And furthermore, according to the Bible, the atheist is not really an atheist anyways, but is instead merely either being stubborn or are clouded by sin.
Again, this is baloney. While you might not have the choice to ignore an involuntary reaction to what looks like a paltry evidence, you can CHOOSE to question your own assumptions and methods (i.e. you can question your overall PRAXIS, if you will). So, the question is: Will you?



My turn... I don't know about others, but I know you seem to like avoiding direct questions :)
No, I'll fully engage questions. But y'know, questions are speech acts and some speech acts are like fish: some have teeth! And personally, I don't like getting bitten. And y'know what they say, "Once bitten, twice shy ......."

I also just don't like being asked to catch every damn snowflake that falls from the sky or else be considered a 'debate loser.' Frankly, I'm not going to get avalanched by a SNOW-JOB AND just fold up, keep my composer and bow out.... like WLC might.
 
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cvanwey

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Oh, I don't know that I'm all that exceptional. You have read Pascal, too, right? In some ways, they have some similarity with WLC (and Paul) in relying on the 'witness' of the Holy Spirit. And let's just say, in that way, I'm not exactly like them since I never really assume that the thoughts in my little head are from the Holy Spirit (other than maybe those that come via what I read in the bible?) ....................... :)


Okay. I already stated this... You are the exception, so far...?

So I have to ask... What singular argument or topic WOULD make you doubt Christianity the most? I'll start... If I received confirmed revelation, I would have no choice but to acknowledge theism as 'true'.


To my mind, quoting a few verses from the Bible doesn't prove that you've read it or that you've understood it.

Um, you stated "Please don't just lay down quotes without citation or at least some indication of who said it. This is really unacceptable in my book; it's needless, and unhelpful, and kind of confusion, really."

I then backed up my assertions with Verse. Many Verses. Now you are switching the argument completely, that I do not know how to read.

You stated prior, that some are 'out of luck'. I then responded - God looks to decide if you are contacted by Him, not the other way around. And furthermore, God seems to suggest that all whom genuinely do not already know He exists, are either clouded by sin, or are in denial.

And your rebuttal is "nuh-uh"? Sweet! I guess I cannot argue what that 'logic' :)


Does God state this? Where?


We know 'Pascal' didn't state any of this ---> seemingly your most favorite person of reference ;)

In all seriousness though, Paul states all the Bible's Words are given by God (i.e.):

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness"

But nice try in another deflection tactic ;)

Isn't it really Paul who states this and (unfortunately for us) doesn't really fully explicate what the whole process of "God filling in the whole of humanity with knowledge of Himself" as actually is? So, to my mind, not only to you beg to differ, you beg the question ...
Moreover, and if we begin with Pascal, it's not hard to understand that what you're attempting to point out in a grade school fashion isn't the whole story and is much more the exception than the rule; not only that, but Paul's case was constituted of him seeing Jesus---Paul didn't see "God In His Essential, Physical Fullness."


Ad hominem detected.... Awesome!

So the Bible quotes are false? (i.e.)

- Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess
- Paul received direct revelation
- Thomas received direct revelation
- Everyone plainly sees the true God; and the ones that don't are merely clouded by sin.

All above demonstrate my point - it is NOT that some are 'out of luck'...

Instead...

- God chooses when we receive true revelation.

- Or, we already have revelation and are in denial.

- Or, are blocked by sin.

Baloney! Save me from your trumped up spin on Reformed Theology. Thank you!


Another 'Nuh-uh' response. Kool. I'm afraid so however. God decides your revelation. Or, sin is blocking your revelation. Or, some humans flat out lie about His existence.

Again, this is baloney. While you might not have the choice to ignore an involuntary reaction to what looks like a paltry evidence, you can CHOOSE to question your own assumptions and methods (i.e. you can question your overall PRAXIS, if you will). So, the question is: Will you?


I do not know how much more clear I can be here... I prayed for revelation for 30 years. Nothing. So either - (according to Verse):

(A) I'm lying and I really have received contact
(B) I'm too much of a sinner and cannot receive His attempts


No, I'll fully engage questions. But y'know, questions are speech acts and some speech acts are like fish: some have teeth! And personally, I don't like getting bitten. And y'know what they say, "Once bitten, twice shy ......."

I also just don't like being asked to catch every damn snowflake that falls from the sky or else be considered a 'debate loser.' Frankly, I'm not going to get avalanched by a SNOW-JOB AND just fold up, keep my composer and bow out.... like WLC might.

Your argument is that some are 'out of luck'. I told you why, according to the Bible, this cannot be so...

If you choose not to actually provide a rebuttal, then all readers will see that you might not really have a rebuttal; but instead just wish to 'huff and puff'.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Okay. I already stated this... You are the exception, so far...?
Am I an exception? If I'm like Pascal and Kierkegaard and I say something like, "I believe because the heart has its reasons....," then I might be at least a little like WLC. And being in company with WLC is something I can bear, really, even if I might not agree with every nuance of every argument he sets forth.

So I have to ask... What singular argument or topic WOULD make you doubt Christianity the most? I'll start... If I received confirmed revelation, I would have no choice but to acknowledge theism as 'true'.
Oh, let's see. ...... maybe if atheists could turn out to be the most helpful, most altruistic, most intelligent, and most loving people on the planet and actually make the world a better place than Christians ever could, then I'd start to see Christianity loosen its grip in my mind. How about those items for starters?


Um, you stated "Please don't just lay down quotes without citation or at least some indication of who said it. This is really unacceptable in my book; it's needless, and unhelpful, and kind of confusion, really."
Right, because you've quoted some things above without a clear references, and I just don't accept this as an academically 'meet' thing to do. You seem to have developed a very common habit of slapping down whatever fanciful quote or idea you happen to think of that you've taken from some source, and you usually do so without citing your source. This seems to have a mainstay point in your debate procedure, I think.

I then backed up my assertions with Verse. Many Verses. Now you are switching the argument completely, that I do not know how to read.
You have which aren't cited and which don't necessarily explain themselves. BUT, if you think they do, AND you think just slapping verses down takes care of backing up your points, then I guess you won't mind if I do the same thing, right?


You stated prior, that some are 'out of luck'.
Right. And what was the condition upon which I said this situation arises? I'm asking because as is your usually mode of redress, you often skip over what I've said and/or respond as if you don't quite get what I'm saying. In this instance, I'll sum up: If a person don't sense God revealing anything to him, AND that same person refuses to do responsible hermeneutical work when studying the bible and refuses to do other types of critical thinking....THEN that person is ............."OUT OF LUCK."


I then responded - God looks to decide if you are contacted by Him, not the other way around.
You're having simply stated this as some kind of truth isn't established simply by you just stating this as some kind of truth. Nor is your flat out denial a disestablishment of anything I've said or have yet to explain.


And furthermore, God seems to suggest that all whom genuinely do not already know He exists, are either clouded by sin, or are in denial.
Ok. And I asked one simple question, and I'll repeat it, where does God say this in the Bible (outside of the book of Romans)? In other words, Paul says it, BUT for him to say it means he's drawing upon some source by which he thinks he's been made aware about some God-given truth that everyone should know. So, again, where does Paul get this idea? You've read the Bible..........................................so surely you know, cvanwey.


And your rebuttal is "nuh-uh"? Sweet! I guess I cannot argue what that 'logic' :)
Yep. it's going to continue to be "hun-uh!," and I challenge just about anyone to take me down over it.


We know 'Pascal' didn't state any of this ---> seemingly your most favorite person of reference ;)
... oh? And what did Pascal say that counters what Paul says in Romans 1? Surely you know?


In all seriousness though, Paul states all the Bible's Words are given by God (i.e.):

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness"
Besides the fact that a citation is needed for this bit from 2 Timothy 3:16-17, what are you going to do if someone pulls your hermeneutical arm behind your back and says you can't just quote this without defending this letter from Paul as being thoroughly authentic first. I'm mean, skeptic that you are, surely you don't think Paul wrote this letter, do you?


But nice try in another deflection tactic ;)
Actually, if I didn't know better, I'd say that I'm not deflecting what you're saying. Rather, I'm cutting into your leather armor, fairly incisively actually.


Ad hominem detected.... Awesome!
Yep, and there is a time a place for everything, especially noting truths about another person's arguments when the shoe fits. And in your case, the shoe definitely fits!


So the Bible quotes are false? (i.e.)

- Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess
I don't know. They could be false or they could be true, but regardless, I think we have to pay attention to the meaning that verbs tenses playing in verbal assertions like 'will bow' and 'will confess,' don't you think? Does this mean everyone will bow and confess now..........................................or is it some time in the undisclosed future?


- Paul received direct revelation
- Thomas received direct revelation
Yeah. So? I haven't. And so what either way?

- Everyone plainly sees the true God; and the ones that don't are merely clouded by sin.
Oh really! And what exactly is it that everyone sees so very plainly? Is it Special Revelation? Or is it General Revalation? Is it some kind of special code or something? What? I'm asking because.............well heck.......I don't really know! Surely you know since you pump this verse so much in order to bolster your faulty arguments here (the same ones you started with 2 and a half years ago I might add).


All above demonstrate my point - it is NOT that some are 'out of luck'...
Nope! With what I've said above, I think I've begun to deflate your already flattened tire. There's not much air left in that inner tube---You better start blowing hard to inflate it again.



- God chooses when we receive true revelation.

- Or, we already have revelation and are in denial.

- Or, are blocked by sin.
Man............you just LOVE jumping to conclusions without doing the hard work of either hermeneutics or epistemological justification! I'm guessing Leap Frog was your favorite game as a child.

Another 'Nuh-uh' response. Kool.
Yep, and I have more where those came from for you and any other skeptical interlocutors who may come along (but then I'm thinking: is interlocution what you're really doing here, anyway, cvanwey?)

I'm afraid so however. God decides your revelation. Or, sin is blocking your revelation. Or, some humans flat out lie about His existence.
Your problem here is that you're interpreting this all by yourself and offering up half truths. It's just enough clarity to seem true, but it's clouded over by your avoidance in taking steps to do 'better' interpretation. Let's try again. First, are we talking General Revelation or Special Revelation in all of this? Secondly, what is your hermeneutical praxis for finding out (if possible)?


I do not know how much more clear I can be here... I prayed for revelation for 30 years. Nothing. So either - (according to Verse):

(A) I'm lying and I really have received contact
(B) I'm too much of a sinner and cannot receive His attempts
Are you sure you're not confusing General Revelation with Special Revelation. Just for the record though, on my part, I'm with you. I haven't received ANY DIRECT revelation that I know of outside of whatever we just happen to have in the Bible. If I have been given some kind of extra insight by God, it's not clear to me that He has thus so done for me or as to what subject matter that extra insight would specifically be. Of course, I imagine some of my Christian brethren with say, "2PhiloVoid...you dummy! God has given us indications of Intelligent Design, don't you know?" Of course, I'd just say, "No, I don't just clearly know. .....although I wish I did."


Your argument is that some are 'out of luck'. I told you why, according to the Bible, this cannot be so...
And I told you above what I meant by "being out of luck."

If you choose not to actually provide a rebuttal, then all readers will see that you might not really have a rebuttal; but instead just wish to 'huff and puff'.
I think everyone can see that I've begun to offer a rebuttal ... not that it's necessarily finished, of course! ;)

Oh, and by the way, change your avatar picture since your not really African-American! Your use of that avatar is disingenuous!

And me? Well, I'll use whatever avatars I see fit since they do represent me in metaphorical ways ...
 
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cvanwey

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Am I an exception? If I'm like Pascal and Kierkegaard and I say something like, "I believe because the heart has its reasons....," then I might be at least a little like WLC. And being in company with WLC is something I can bear, really, even if I might not agree with every nuance of every argument he sets forth.

I'm going to put a nickel in the jar every time you mention Pascal and/or Kierkegaard :) I'll be able to buy that new boat in no time.

Oh, let's see. ...... maybe if atheists could turn out to be the most helpful, most altruistic, most intelligent, and most loving people on the planet and actually make the world a better place than Christians ever could, then I'd start to see Christianity loosen its grip in my mind. How about those items for starters?

You believe in the Christian God as being real and true because you see Christians as being more helpful in society?

Right, because you've quoted some things above without a clear references, and I just don't accept this as an academically 'meet' thing to do. You seem to have developed a very common habit of slapping down whatever fanciful quote or idea you happen to think of that you've taken from some source, and you usually do so without citing your source. This seems to have a mainstay point in your debate procedure, I think.

You again offer no rebuttal, just blank accusations. Again with the 'nuh-uh' defense.

You need to demonstrate why the provided Verses do not support the claims. You again have failed to even attempt in doing this...



You have which aren't cited and which don't necessarily explain themselves. BUT, if you think they do, AND you think just slapping verses down takes care of backing up your points, then I guess you won't mind if I do the same thing, right?


Blank assertions and 'nuh-uh', aren't the 'same thing'.




Right. And what was the condition upon which I said this situation arises? I'm asking because as is your usually mode of redress, you often skip over what I've said and/or respond as if you don't quite get what I'm saying. In this instance, I'll sum up: If a person don't sense God revealing anything to him, AND that same person refuses to do responsible hermeneutical work when studying the bible and refuses to do other types of critical thinking....THEN that person is ............."OUT OF LUCK."

Then you have missed my clear answer here...

The Bible tells us why this would be the case. In this specific case, sin is blocking my revelation.


You're having simply stated this as some kind of truth isn't established simply by you just stating this as some kind of truth. Nor is your flat out denial a disestablishment of anything I've said or have yet to explain.

God states He has the ability to reveal to anyone, without doubt. I have doubt. This means God has chosen to remain hidden from me. Hence, looks as though God chooses, not us.

Ok. And I asked one simple question, and I'll repeat it, where does God say this in the Bible (outside of the book of Romans)? In other words, Paul says it, BUT for him to say it means he's drawing upon some source by which he thinks he's been made aware about some God-given truth that everyone should know. So, again, where does Paul get this idea? You've read the Bible..........................................so surely you know, cvanwey.

Oh, it needs to say it in more than one spot now? How many times does it need to say it to be valid @2PhiloVoid ? What is the magic number? You have now clearly moved the goal posts.

Can I discard Romans 1:18-22 then?

Furthermore, Paul states all of Scripture is God given. According to Paul, all authors are merely 'ghost writers' for God's Word.

Yep. it's going to continue to be "hun-uh!," and I challenge just about anyone to take me down over it.

I pretty much rest my case :)

Besides the fact that a citation is needed for this bit from 2 Timothy 3:16-17, what are you going to do if someone pulls your hermeneutical arm behind your back and says you can't just quote this without defending this letter from Paul as being thoroughly authentic first. I'm mean, skeptic that you are, surely you don't think Paul wrote this letter, do you?

I think Paul existed. I also think Paul wrote stuff. I would even venture to state he truly believed what He believed. I also believe he wrote the Verses "All scripture is God given."

Okay, now that we are both caught up, care to address the actual response now?

You asked, does God state this, where? I just told you. Paul states that all Scripture is from God. Do you disagree with him. I do. I say none of it came from anything other than the people whom wrote it, or the ones telling them to write such Verses, which was other humans. On some fundamental level, your synopsis probably differs.?.?



Actually, if I didn't know better, I'd say that I'm not deflecting what you're saying. Rather, I'm cutting into your leather armor, fairly incisively actually.


Whatever helps you sleep at night, I guess :)

Yep, and there is a time a place for everything, especially noting truths about another person's arguments when the shoe fits. And in your case, the shoe definitely fits!

Yep, ad hominems, 'supported' by blank assertions "definitely fits" :)

I don't know. They could be false or they could be true, but regardless, I think we have to pay attention to the meaning that verbs tenses playing in verbal assertions like 'will bow' and 'will confess,' don't you think? Does this mean everyone will bow and confess now..........................................or is it some time in the undisclosed future?

It means that God has the ability to reveal His presence in a way, where even I could not have doubt. Meaning He does not, thus far. Hence, God chooses my time in appointed revelation, not me ;) Until then, I'm 'out of luck'.

Yeah. So?

How quickly you forget. You stated: "Please don't just lay down quotes without citation or at least some indication of who said it. This is really unacceptable in my book; it's needless, and unhelpful, and kind of confusion, really." I provided Verse to back it up ;)


Oh really! And what exactly is it that everyone sees so very plainly? Is it Special Revelation? Or is it General Revalation? Is it some kind of special code or something? What? I'm asking because.............well heck.......I don't really know! Surely you know since you pump this verse so much in order to bolster your faulty arguments here (the same ones you started with 2 and a half years ago I might add).


You are moving the goal posts again. You asked for citations. I gave them. Why don't YOU ask God why He asserts what He asserted, in Romans 1:18-22 ;)

Again, according to the provided assertion, I either know He exists, and am a perpetual liar in this forum, or, sin is blocking me from knowing.

And once you get this little nugget sorted out, we can then deal with your follow-up question about 'special revelation.' But I already touched on this... [God decides] when to reveal 'specially'. Thus far, I guess I remain 'out of luck'.




Man............you just LOVE jumping to conclusions without doing the hard work of either hermeneutics or epistemological justification! I'm guessing Leap Frog was your favorite game as a child.


You offer no rebuttal. You merely attempt to insult my intelligence and provide a red herring.



Your problem here is that you're interpreting this all by yourself and offering up half truths. It's just enough clarity to seem true, but it's clouded over by your avoidance in taking steps to do 'better' interpretation. Let's try again. First, are we talking General Revelation or Special Revelation in all of this? Secondly, what is your hermeneutical praxis for finding out (if possible)?

I addressed this above, regarding 'special revelation'. You have also again avoided the plausible outcomes:

- God decides when to reveal, not us - (this is why many remain skeptical, atheists, agnostics, other)
- I already know but am lying or in perpetual denial
- I don't know because I am currently blocked by sin

If you wish to offer an actual rebuttal, by all means...


Are you sure you're not confusing General Revelation with Special Revelation. Just for the record though, on my part, I'm with you. I haven't received ANY DIRECT revelation that I know of outside of whatever we just happen to have in the Bible. If I have been given some kind of extra insight by God, it's not clear to me that He has thus so done for me or as to what subject matter that extra insight would specifically be. Of course, I imagine some of my Christian brethren with say, "2PhiloVoid...you dummy! God has given us indications of Intelligent Design, don't you know?" Of course, I'd just say, "No, I don't just clearly know. .....although I wish I did."


Noted. And I already acknowledge this...


And I told you above what I meant by "being out of luck."


According to the Bible, this could mean sin is likely blocking you.

I think everyone can see that I've begun to offer a rebuttal ... not that it's necessarily finished, of course! ;)

Oh, and by the way, change your avatar picture since your not really African-American! Your use of that avatar is disingenuous!

And me? Well, I'll use whatever avatars I see fit since they do represent me in metaphorical ways ...

I chose the avatar because of what it says, not who's in the picture. Nice attempt at another cheap shot, to try and deflect against the points ;)
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I'm going to put a nickel in the jar every time you mention Pascal and/or Kierkegaard :) I'll be able to buy that new boat in no time.



You believe in the Christian God as being real and true because you see Christians as being more helpful in society?



You again offer no rebuttal, just blank accusations. Again with the 'nuh-uh' defense.

You need to demonstrate why the provided Verses do not support the claims. You again have failed to even attempt in doing this...





Blank assertions and 'nuh-uh', aren't the 'same thing'.






Then you have missed my clear answer here...

The Bible tells us why this would be the case. In this specific case, sin is blocking my revelation.




God states He has the ability to reveal to anyone, without doubt. I have doubt. This means God has chosen to remain hidden from me. Hence, looks as though God chooses, not us.



Oh, it needs to say it in more than one spot now? How many times does it need to say it to be valid @2PhiloVoid ? What is the magic number? You have now clearly moved the goal posts.

Can I discard Romans 1:18-22 then?

Furthermore, Paul states all of Scripture is God given. According to Paul, all authors are merely 'ghost writers' for God's Word.



I pretty much rest my case :)



I think Paul existed. I also think Paul wrote stuff. I would even venture to state he truly believed what He believed. I also believe he wrote the Verses "All scripture is God given."

Okay, now that we are both caught up, care to address the actual response now?

You asked, does God state this, where? I just told you. Paul states that all Scripture is from God. Do you disagree with him. I do. I say none of it came from anything other than the people whom wrote it, or the ones telling them to write such Verses, which was other humans. On some fundamental level, your synopsis probably differs.?.?





Whatever helps you sleep at night, I guess :)



Yep, ad hominems, 'supported' by blank assertions "definitely fits" :)



It means that God has the ability to reveal His presence in a way, where even I could not have doubt. Meaning He does not, thus far. Hence, God chooses my time in appointed revelation, not me ;) Until then, I'm 'out of luck'.



How quickly you forget. You stated: "Please don't just lay down quotes without citation or at least some indication of who said it. This is really unacceptable in my book; it's needless, and unhelpful, and kind of confusion, really." I provided Verse to back it up ;)




You are moving the goal posts again. You asked for citations. I gave them. Why don't YOU ask God why He asserts what He asserted, in Romans 1:18-22 ;)

Again, according to the provided assertion, I either know He exists, and am a perpetual liar in this forum, or, sin is blocking me from knowing.

And once you get this little nugget sorted out, we can then deal with your follow-up question about 'special revelation.' But I already touched on this... [God decides] when to reveal 'specially'. Thus far, I guess I remain 'out of luck'.






You offer no rebuttal. You merely attempt to insult my intelligence and provide a red herring.





I addressed this above, regarding 'special revelation'. You have also again avoided the plausible outcomes:

- God decides when to reveal, not us - (this is why many remain skeptical, atheists, agnostics, other)
- I already know but am lying or in perpetual denial
- I don't know because I am currently blocked by sin

If you wish to offer an actual rebuttal, by all means...




Noted. And I already acknowledge this...




According to the Bible, this could mean sin is likely blocking you.



I chose the avatar because of what it says, not who's in the picture. Nice attempt at another cheap shot, to try and deflect against the points ;)

Oh, I'm sure you're right about everything. And I'm sure that 100% of everything I've ever said to you ever since you began here on CF 2 1/2 years ago, and every source, academic or otherwise, is completely and utterly erroneous, conjectural and it all amounts to absolutely nothing.

So, Congratulations! You've won the great Bible and God debate, cvanwey! :dontcare:Enjoy your existence!
 
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FireDragon76

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I don't find Pentecostalism/Charismaticism to be evidence of Christian truth claims. The exact same phenomena exist in Hinduism, in the form of Shaktism. Except in Hinduism, it is understood as the awakening of latent spiritual power within humanity, and not the actions of a completely transcendent god.
 
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