God's Revelation is Real and Proven!

[cvanwey]

Isn't it? I've recently opened a couple of threads:

Is the Whole of Apologetics Merely a Facade?

Which basically ends, thus far, with the realization that [personal revelation] is likely the only thing which matters... And that apologetics is virtually a futile endeavor for both theists and atheists....

And then....

You Know... Maybe The 'Church' is on to Som'n Here?

Which basically demonstrates that the 'church' often times uses the 'appeal to emotion' rationale for truth, rather than data, evidence, and instruction -- like a school might...

This moves us forward further. IF both atheists and theists alike admit that personal revelation is likely the only thing which would truly make them at least accept the existence of a God; then I guess all we have left to figure out is how do we parse out which of these highly publicized and witnessed renditions of the Holy Spirit, working on humans, IS authentic?

 

[cloudyday2]

I suppose we need to look at the people who may have experienced some action of the Holy Spirit for several months after the event.

In the second video it appears that infertile women are hoping to have God's help in becoming fertile, so are their hopes realized?

Another angle is the fruits of the spirit ( Fruit of the Holy Spirit - Wikipedia ) - "love", "joy", "peace", "patience", "kindness", "goodness", "faithfulness", "gentleness", and "self-control". Do these people see improvements in those character traits in the months following the event?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Isn't it? I've recently opened a couple of threads:

Is the Whole of Apologetics Merely a Facade?

Which basically ends, thus far, with the realization that [personal revelation] is likely the only thing which matters... And that apologetics is virtually a futile endeavor for both theists and atheists....

And then....

You Know... Maybe The 'Church' is on to Som'n Here?

Which basically demonstrates that the 'church' often times uses the 'appeal to emotion' rationale for truth, rather than data, evidence, and instruction -- like a school might...

This moves us forward further. IF both atheists and theists alike admit that personal revelation is likely the only thing which would truly make them at least accept the existence of a God; then I guess all we have left to figure out is how do we parse out which of these highly publicized and witnessed renditions of the Holy Spirit, working on humans, IS authentic?

Oh, so ... let me get this straight. What you guys really want to see is me begin to 'police' the assertions of all of my fellow Christians rather than harping on you guys. Would this be far from the Mark?

 

[Jord Simcha]

The proof of God's revelation is often only sensed by the individual. It's not proof that can be shown to others, merely testified of.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

The proof of God's revelation is often only sensed by the individual. It's not proof that can be shown to others, merely testified of.

Why would a God not make it clear to all?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

I suppose we need to look at the people who may have experienced some action of the Holy Spirit for several months after the event.

In the second video it appears that infertile women are hoping to have God's help in becoming fertile, so are their hopes realized?

How would this give good evidence that it was the action of a Holy Spirit?

 

[Jord Simcha]

Why would a God not make it clear to all?

You'd have to ask God.

Why-questions about other persons are hard to respond to.

According to the Bible God made Himself known by what is seen in creation.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

You'd have to ask God.

I would love to. It is not me that is not willing to communicate.

According to the Bible God made Himself known by what is seen in creation.

This is demonstrably false, many people like myself are not convinced by that evidence.

 

[Jord Simcha]

I would love to. It is not me that is not willing to communicate.

Haha yeah, I get that. I ask God questions sometimes myself, and many of them stay unanswered.

But I mean, you could you know, in due time, ask Jesus, I'm convinced.

This is demonstrably false, many people like myself are not convinced by that evidence.

How did you feel about this as a child?

Because I admit, I don't find it the strongest assertion of the Bible, but I was as a child a bit of a believer, despite having atheist parents and upbringing, before I became atheistic afterwards and later agnostic, before becoming a Christian.

I remember lying in bed pondering how amazing my body was etc. leading me to believe there was a God.

 

[cloudyday2]

How would this give good evidence that it was the action of a Holy Spirit?

It would merely be suggestive without being conclusive. It might pique the curiosity of some scientists and motivate them to design a controlled experiment of some kind.

The placebo effect would need to be controlled, because an infertile woman might become fertile simply by being more hopeful and relaxed. Similarly a person might grow the "fruits of the Spirit" simply by expecting to grow those fruits and trying a little harder to be virtuous.

I don't know how a controlled experiment would be designed, because the Holy Spirit is invisible. We could get phony faith healers who are actually atheists to lay hands on people to give them a phony "sugar pill" experience of the Holy Spirit, but how would we be certain that the Holy Spirit didn't show-up in spite of our phony faith healers?

 

[cvanwey]

I suppose we need to look at the people who may have experienced some action of the Holy Spirit for several months after the event.

In the second video it appears that infertile women are hoping to have God's help in becoming fertile, so are their hopes realized?

Another angle is the fruits of the spirit ( Fruit of the Holy Spirit - Wikipedia ) - "love", "joy", "peace", "patience", "kindness", "goodness", "faithfulness", "gentleness", and "self-control". Do these people see improvements in those character traits in the months following the event?

I'm not sure? Do these women ever come back to report of being pregnant? If so, were they truly infertile prior?

But this just raises so many more questions, than to possibly provide answers...

- Why does God need to work His grace through a 'faith healer'?
- Does God wait to be asked?
- What is God's criteria for granting or rejecting requests?
- Does this mean God sometimes changes His mind about your fate?
- Does God ever perform any on-the-spot miracles, which cannot be attributed to mundane events?
- Does the 'faith healer' ever help amputees?
- What about someone with Downs Syndrome?

Why not just cause the entire front row to levitate? I mean really, if it's all miracles from God, what's the difference?

 

[cvanwey]

Oh, so ... let me get this straight. What you guys really want to see is me begin to 'police' the assertions of all of my fellow Christians rather than harping on you guys. Would this be far from the Mark?

As the thread suggests, seems as though felt contact from the Holy Spirit is what drives belief. Maybe not for EVERYONE, but I'd venture to say, most. Myself included.

This thread was created, as I am starting to come more to the conclusion that this whole apologetics gig really gets no one nowhere. We can bring up topics until the cows come home. You could crush all of my arguments. And likewise, I could do so for yours. We would both walk away not changing our current position about 'God' one lick.

Did I already kind of know this was going to happen? Yes. However, I had not realized, until recently, that revelation seems to be virtually the only aspect which really differentiates between belief and non-belief in a God. Thank you WLC!

The ultimate topic of discussion here seems to be revelation. All these folks claim to receive it. And I'm willing to bet they all believe they are receiving it. But it's also fair to suggest that at least SOME, if not more, or maybe even more still, are NOT?

Thus, I feel it is an important question to ask.... Is there a way to decipher true contact, from sheer self manifestation? I see you already answered another. I honestly do not know of THE method. Hell, maybe there exists no METHOD? But I would sure like to explore and see where this goes

But if apologetics is to have any value at all, maybe all of you theists, whom claim to have had felt the Holy spirit, can elaborate as to how to differentiate true contact from false ones?????

 

[cvanwey]

The proof of God's revelation is often only sensed by the individual. It's not proof that can be shown to others, merely testified of.

Okay. If God reveals, then why not reveal the exact same revelation to a group of people simultaneously? The group can all pray to receive God's Words, and ask that God provides the exact same message to all of them. If these individuals all report the same response from God, then we might have something?

Example:

You and I pray to ask God for the same message. We both claim God responded with the message. We don't tell each other what that message is, but instead write the message down on a piece of paper. Afterwards, we then reveal this piece of paper to one another.

*************

If God expects humans to believe 'individual' testimonials alone, then is it no wonder we are here, thousands of years later, still asking the same redundant questions?

 

[Jord Simcha]

Okay. If God reveals, then why not reveal the exact same revelation to a group of people simultaneously? The group can all pray to receive God's Words, and ask that God provides the exact same message to all of them. If these individuals all report the same response from God, then we might have something?

Example:

You and I pray to ask God for the same message. We both claim God responded with the message. We don't tell each other what that message is, but instead write the message down on a piece of paper. Afterwards, we then reveal this piece of paper to one another.

I don't see the point in that, tbh.

But if you want to pray the same as I did, I encourage you to ask God for the Holy Spirit.

*************

If God expects humans to believe 'individual' testimonials alone, then is it no wonder we are here, thousands of years later, still asking the same redundant questions?

For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 1 Corinthians 1:21

Whose testimony is right is for you to find out. God is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.

 

[cloudyday2]

I'm not sure? Do these women ever come back to report of being pregnant? If so, were they truly infertile prior?

Yes, we need to know their history both before and after the claimed Holy Spirit experience. Here is an interesting article about Jewish magic with an anecdote of somebody miraculously cured of infertility through magic. Even this doesn't prove that magic worked, but it is better than some unknown person in a youtube video with no biography.

A few weeks ago, I had lunch with my childhood friend Rachel and her new baby daughter. Rachel spent close to 15 years attempting to get pregnant. She tried every known fertility drug and in vitro fertilization treatment multiple times, to no avail. She prayed daily to become pregnant. Finally, early last September, she paid an Orthodox rabbi in Israel to perform a segulah (charm) that he claimed would cure her infertility. Following his advice, on each day of Sukkot, hoping that she was already pregnant, Rachel bit off and chewed the pitom or stem of an etrog in order to ensure a safe delivery. In late October she learned that she was pregnant, and this June, at age 49, she gave birth to a healthy baby.

The Weird and Wondrous World of Jews and Magic

But this just raises so many more questions, than to possibly provide answers...

- Why does God need to work His grace through a 'faith healer'?
- Does God wait to be asked?
- What is God's criteria for granting or rejecting requests?
- Does this mean God sometimes changes His mind about your fate?
- Does God ever perform any on-the-spot miracles, which cannot be attributed to mundane events?
- Does the 'faith healer' ever help amputees?
- What about someone with Downs Syndrome?

Why not just cause the entire front row to levitate? I mean really, if it's all miracles from God, what's the difference?

My thought on the purpose of miracles if they exist is to teach. Rather than giving people what they desire, God educates people in the ways they need. For example, if a person is impatient then maybe God makes them pray for years before granting their request. If a person is dismissive of some other tradition of Christianity then maybe God grants their request through a person of that tradition. Etc.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

As the thread suggests, seems as though felt contact from the Holy Spirit is what drives belief. Maybe not for EVERYONE, but I'd venture to say, most. Myself included.

This thread was created, as I am starting to come more to the conclusion that this whole apologetics gig really gets no one nowhere. We can bring up topics until the cows come home. You could crush all of my arguments. And likewise, I could do so for yours. We would both walk away not changing our current position about 'God' one lick.

....and this is the moment I've been waiting for, cvanway. Now you're getting it! Now you're getting it!

Did I already kind of know this was going to happen? Yes. However, I had not realized, until recently, that revelation seems to be virtually the only aspect which really differentiates between belief and non-belief in a God. Thank you WLC!

You and me both. Although, I don't think we can thank WLC alone.

The ultimate topic of discussion here seems to be revelation. All these folks claim to receive it. And I'm willing to bet they all believe they are receiving it. But it's also fair to suggest that at least SOME, if not more, or maybe even more still, are NOT?

Sort of, yes. However, I'd put the issues of discussion regarding both General and Specific Revelation on the "God side" of biblical epistemology (as I conceptualize it all). And this then leaves issues of discussion pertaining to Human Hermeneutics (and other scientific type investigations) on the "Human side" of biblical epistemology.

Thus, I feel it is an important question to ask.... Is there a way to decipher true contact, from sheer self manifestation? I see you already answered another. I honestly do not know of THE method. Hell, maybe there exists no METHOD? But I would sure like to explore and see where this goes

As far as I can tell, where something like 'method' may be involved, there's only hermeneutical PRAXIS to consider, and that belongs mainly on the "Human side" of biblical epistemology. The closest thing you're going to have to method on the "God side" of biblical epistemology is the willingness to pray and to continue praying for some kind of providential arrangement from God, on God's terms.

Needless to say, if what I describe above regarding both the 'human side' and the 'God side' of biblical epistemology doesn't generate any feelings of interest, then that person is..................existentially out of luck.

But if apologetics is to have any value at all, maybe all of you theists, whom claim to have had felt the Holy spirit, can elaborate as to how to differentiate true contact from false ones?????

I've never claimed to have "felt" the Holy Spirit, but I have claimed to have read and mulled over what the New Testament writers (and maybe a few later Christian writers) have said about their own "felt experiences."

 

[Rachel20]

We can bring up topics until the cows come home. You could crush all of my arguments. And likewise, I could do so for yours. We would both walk away not changing our current position about 'God' one lick.

Sure, because we're biased and believe what we want to believe. Apologetics provides reason for those who want, and arguments against for those who don't. But in the end, it comes down to faith just as God chose 1 Corinthians 1:21-25. imo this seperates the groups effectively based on their hearts, something the Christian God was always primarily concerned with.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Heb 11:1

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Haha yeah, I get that. I ask God questions sometimes myself, and many of them stay unanswered.

Why? If God really wants me to believe he could provide me the evidence would need to believe he exists.

But I mean, you could you know, in due time, ask Jesus, I'm convinced.

Why are you convinced this is true?

How did you feel about this as a child?

Because I admit, I don't find it the strongest assertion of the Bible, but I was as a child a bit of a believer, despite having atheist parents and upbringing, before I became atheistic afterwards and later agnostic, before becoming a Christian.

I have always been fascinated by the vastness of this universe and what is out there beyond the limits of it. [/quote]I believed a lot of things as a child like Santa was real. It all made sense to me. However, I had good evidence for that belief. My parents told me Santa was real, I received the gifts I asked Santa for, Santa ate the cookies I left for him and all my friends believed. I have none of this kind of evidence for God. Why would I rely on a belief I had as a child as evidence for Gods existence?

I remember lying in bed pondering how amazing my body was etc. leading me to believe there was a God.

Do you now realize that is not good evidence for belief?

 

[Jord Simcha]

Why? If God really wants me to believe he could provide me the evidence would need to believe he exists.

Yeah, he could. Have you asked God for this evidence?

Why are you convinced this is true?

Because I asked God for Holy Spirit in Jesus' name and received upon asking, that's what convinced me He is real and alive.

I have none of this kind of evidence for God. Why would I rely on a belief I had as a child as evidence for Gods existence?

I just asked you how did you feel about God as a child because then to you the evidence for God's existence as it is recognized in the things created was still fresh.

Do you now realize that is not good evidence for belief?

It is not my argument really, but God's. I already admitted I find it not the strongest evidence but according to God His power and invisible attributes can be clearly seen by the things He created:

"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"
Romans 1:20

As a child, I was susceptible to this, is all I am saying.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Yeah, he could. Have you asked God for this evidence?

Many many times. I was a christian for many years. It was studying the Bible that lead me to see that Christianity was unreasonable and that my beliefs were based on bad evidence. I did not want to be an atheist, I begged God many times to reveal that he is real to me. Well as you can infer He never showed me any such evidence.

Because I asked God for Holy Spirit in Jesus' name and received upon asking, that's what convinced me He is real and alive.

Do you have any evidence that might convince others?

I just asked you how did you feel about God as a child because then to you the evidence for God's existence as it is recognized in the things created was still fresh.

Just because I may have felt awe at the universe as a child is not evidence that God exists.

It is not my argument really, but God's. I already admitted I find it not the strongest evidence but according to God His power and invisible attributes can be clearly seen by the things He created:

"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"
Romans 1:20

As a child, I was susceptible to this, is all I am saying.

OK, I understand. But I also know that this verse is not true because I do not believe God exists.