God's Order of Salvation

[Dan1988]

Most Christians don't believe that faith is a gift. They believe that faith is something they attained by their decision to believe the promises of God.

Ephesians 2:8-10
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

The above verses confirm that salvation is by grace through faith. Most Christians accept that grace is a gift from God, but they don't accept that faith is also a gift that God gives to those He saves.
So if we are saved by grace through faith, and if both of these are gifts then we have nothing to boast about. But if faith is something the individual attains as a result of making a decision to put his trust in Jesus, then salvation is the result of a joint effort between God and man.

Romans 8:7-8 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

The above verse is obviously referring to unbelievers, it confirms that those who have not been converted do not submit to God's law and neither can they. This confirms that they are unable to have faith, unless God first gives it to them.

Paul speaks of those foreknown by God as being predestined. Some have erroneously taken this to mean that God looks down the corridors of time and then chooses to save those whom he knows in advance will believe the gospel when it is preached to them.

This is not the case, because Paul has already told us that calling of certain people to salvation is not based upon foreseen faith, but upon the purposes of God, Romans 8:28 Those who are called according to Hi purpose.
Foreknowledge does not merely mean that God knows what we will do in advance, but rather that God knows us as individuals in the full sense depicted in Psalm 139–where God is said to know our thoughts before we even think them because it is he who has formed us in our mother’s womb.

All those whom God foreknows, He also predestines. Those foreknown are predestined, and those predestined are called, and justified, are at last glorified. That is, we are fully restored from the effects of sin on the day when the dead in Christ are raised. Paul’s point is that God begins our salvation and ensures that it is completed..

Most Christians don't like to deal with this doctrine, because it gives all the glory in salvation to God, and it leaves them nothing to boast about. Some would label this doctrine as "Calvinism", but it has nothing to do with any man made doctrine.

 

[d taylor]

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Faith is a gift that God give ever person at birth, unless a person is born with some type of birth defect that inhibits them to be able to exercise the act of belief in their life.

Faith is used in daily life by all people all over the earth.

What makes the belief/ faith special used in receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation. Is not they have been given a special type of belief/faith, but it is the object of their belief Jesus and God's promised that all who believe in Jesus receives God's free gift of Eternal Life.

As this believe requires not other action besides simply believing God at His promise/word. The belief does not require repentance, baptism, a life time of obedience, saying a prayer, a commitment to follow Jesus, confessing Jesus as Lord, etc..........

 

[David Lamb]

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Faith is a gift that God give ever person at birth, unless a person is born with some type of birth defect that inhibits them to be able to exercise the act of belief in their life.

Faith is used in daily life by all people all over the earth.

What makes the belief/ faith special used in receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation. Is not they have been given a special type of belief/faith, but it is the object of their belief Jesus and God's promised that all who believe in Jesus receives God's free gift of Eternal Life.

As this believe requires not other action besides simply believing God at His promise/word. The belief does not require repentance, baptism, a life time of obedience, saying a prayer, a commitment to follow Jesus, confessing Jesus as Lord, etc..........

Where are we taught in the bible that "Faith is a gift that God give ever person at birth, unless a person is born with some type of birth defect that inhibits them to be able to exercise the act of belief in their life."?

 

[d taylor]

Where are we taught in the bible that "Faith is a gift that God give ever person at birth, unless a person is born with some type of birth defect that inhibits them to be able to exercise the act of belief in their life."?

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Please do not reply and ask questions, to my post unless you understand what i write

 

[David Lamb]

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Please do not reply and ask questions, to my post unless you understand what i write

Sorry, what a strange request! Surely one reason for asking a poster questions is that the questioner does not understand what the poster wrote. In the current case, I don't understand where you got the idea that faith is given to everybody by God at birth. That is why I asked. It certainly wasn't my intention to cause any upset, and if you would rather not answer my post, then that is entirely your decision.

 

[d taylor]

Sorry, what a strange request! Surely one reason for asking a poster questions is that the questioner does not understand what the poster wrote. In the current case, I don't understand where you got the idea that faith is given to everybody by God at birth. That is why I asked. It certainly wasn't my intention to cause any upset, and if you would rather not answer my post, then that is entirely your decision.

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So do you not believe God has given people when they are born into the world the ability of exercise belief.

 

[David Lamb]

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So do you not believe God has given people when they are born into the world the ability of exercise belief.

No I don't. As a newborn baby, I didn't have the ability to believe or disbelieve anything, let alone my need of a Saviour, and the only Saviour being the Lord Jesus Christ. I believe that God gives the ability to believe at our second birth, not at our first:

“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; [it is] the gift of God,” (Eph 2:8 NKJV)

 

[d taylor]

No I don't. As a newborn baby, I didn't have the ability to believe or disbelieve anything, let alone my need of a Saviour, and the only Saviour being the Lord Jesus Christ. I believe that God gives the ability to believe at our second birth, not at our first:

“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; [it is] the gift of God,” (Eph 2:8 NKJV)

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So when you were a child, you did not have the ability to believe there was a Santa Claus (even though that is a lie). Or that men went to the moon (even thought that is a lie).

So when did you get the ability to believe in things were you 20, 30, 40, 50

The gift in Ephesians 2;8 is salvation not faith.

 

[David Lamb]

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So when you were a child, you did not have the ability to believe there was a Santa Claus (even though that is a lie). Or that men went to the moon (even thought that is a lie).

So when did you get the ability to believe in things were you 20, 30, 40, 50

The gift in Ephesians 2;8 is salvation not faith.

Yes I believed in Father Christmas as we tended to call him here in the UK, and I still believe that men went to the moon. But I wasn't born with the ability. I don't know what age I was when I could look back and say, "Yes, that's when I started being able to believe things!" I do know how old I was when I was given the ability to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (and of course this will be different for each Christian). I was 19. Before that, I had no awareness of the need to believe on Him.

As for Ephesians 2:8, I believe that salvation and the faith necessary are given us by God. I am not alone in believing that. As I look through various commentaries on that verse, I find the following:

"Salvation is through faith, not as a cause or condition of salvation, or as what adds anything to the blessing itself; but it is the way, or means, or instrument, which God has appointed, for the receiving and enjoying it, that so it might appear to be all of grace; and this faith is not the produce of man’s free will and power, but it is the free gift of God; and therefore salvation through it is consistent with salvation by grace;" (John Gill)

"Both that faith and that salvation on which it has so great an influence are the gift of God." (John Calvin)

 

[d taylor]

Yes I believed in Father Christmas as we tended to call him here in the UK, and I still believe that men went to the moon. But I wasn't born with the ability. I don't know what age I was when I could look back and say, "Yes, that's when I started being able to believe things!" I do know how old I was when I was given the ability to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (and of course this will be different for each Christian). I was 19. Before that, I had no awareness of the need to believe on Him.

As for Ephesians 2:8, I believe that salvation and the faith necessary are given us by God. I am not alone in believing that. As I look through various commentaries on that verse, I find the following:

"Salvation is through faith, not as a cause or condition of salvation, or as what adds anything to the blessing itself; but it is the way, or means, or instrument, which God has appointed, for the receiving and enjoying it, that so it might appear to be all of grace; and this faith is not the produce of man’s free will and power, but it is the free gift of God; and therefore salvation through it is consistent with salvation by grace;" (John Gill)

"Both that faith and that salvation on which it has so great an influence are the gift of God." (John Calvin)

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Kind of odd that there is only one verse and that verse is not plainly stated that faith is a gift. But people have built a theology around this verse.

Where as in Romans the free gift of eternal life is plainly stated.

But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

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For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[d taylor]

Yes I believed in Father Christmas as we tended to call him here in the UK, and I still believe that men went to the moon. But I wasn't born with the ability. I don't know what age I was when I could look back and say, "Yes, that's when I started being able to believe things!" I do know how old I was when I was given the ability to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (and of course this will be different for each Christian). I was 19. Before that, I had no awareness of the need to believe on Him.

As for Ephesians 2:8, I believe that salvation and the faith necessary are given us by God. I am not alone in believing that. As I look through various commentaries on that verse, I find the following:

"Salvation is through faith, not as a cause or condition of salvation, or as what adds anything to the blessing itself; but it is the way, or means, or instrument, which God has appointed, for the receiving and enjoying it, that so it might appear to be all of grace; and this faith is not the produce of man’s free will and power, but it is the free gift of God; and therefore salvation through it is consistent with salvation by grace;" (John Gill)

"Both that faith and that salvation on which it has so great an influence are the gift of God." (John Calvin)

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If faith is a gift given by God and God has not given a person faith. Then the person who does not believe in Jesus would not be responsible for their lack of faith.

But people are held accountable for their lack of belief in Jesus.

 

[Clare73]

Most Christians don't believe that faith is a gift. They believe that faith is something they attained by their decision to believe the promises of God.
Ephesians 2:8-10
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

The above verses confirm that salvation is by grace through faith. Most Christians accept that grace is a gift from God, but they don't accept that faith is also a gift that God gives to those He saves.
So if we are saved by grace through faith, and if both of these are gifts then we have nothing to boast about. But if faith is something the individual attains as a result of making a decision to put his trust in Jesus, then salvation is the result of a joint effort between God and man.

Romans 8:7-8 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

The above verse is obviously referring to unbelievers, it confirms that those who have not been converted do not submit to God's law and neither can they. This confirms that they are unable to have faith, unless God first gives it to them.

Paul speaks of those foreknown by God as being predestined. Some have erroneously taken this to mean that God looks down the corridors of time and then chooses to save those whom he knows in advance will believe the gospel when it is preached to them.

This is not the case, because Paul has already told us that calling of certain people to salvation is not based upon foreseen faith, but upon the purposes of God, Romans 8:28 Those who are called according to Hi purpose.
Foreknowledge does not merely mean that God knows what we will do in advance, but rather that God knows us as individuals in the full sense

Let me add that God's foreknowledge (prognosis), as distinct from other foreknowledge (proginosko), is used only of divine foreknowledge: Ac 15:8, 2:23, 1 Pe 1:2,
which is God knowing in advance what he is going to do, rather than what man is going to do.

depicted in Psalm 139–where God is said to know our thoughts before we even think them because it is he who has formed us in our mother’s womb.

All those whom God foreknows, He also predestines. Those foreknown are predestined, and those predestined are called, and justified, are at last glorified. That is, we are fully restored from the effects of sin on the day when the dead in Christ are raised. Paul’s point is that God begins our salvation and ensures that it is completed..

Most Christians don't like to deal with this doctrine, because it gives all the glory in salvation to God, and it leaves them nothing to boast about. Some would label this doctrine as "Calvinism", but it has nothing to do with any man made doctrine.

 

[KevinT]

Or that men went to the moon (even though that is a lie).​

Can you explain more why you think it is a lie that people went to the moon?

KT

 

[d taylor]

Can you explain more why you think it is a lie that people went to the moon?

KT

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Go here Did Men Really Walk On The Moon?
and here
why do people think the moon landing was fake?
and here
Another look at the moon landing.

 

[Richard T]

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. the word there is rhema, so "spoken word" to your heart. Is it a gift, or an attempt by man to know God? A combination of both. I would say too that some do not want to find God but intercession will work. Get their heart to open up so they can't shut out God. This is the problem with Calvinism and election. God wants all to be saved but it is up to the church. God assists but we are the vessels. An easy point is from the old testament where God said if a prophet did not speak, the blood is on his hands. If God did everyone's salvation with no assistance why would their blood be on their hands?

I did a paper on the top three evangelists according to salvations in recent times. TL Osborn, Rheinhard Bonnke, Billy Graham. All in the millions getting decisions for Christ. All have statements rejecting reform theology and saying that their efforts in God make a difference because they believed all (everyone) could be saved. That God does not predetermine election. George Whitfield by the way was a great reform evangelist in the 18th century.

Hypothetically, if all Christians prayed and fasted specifically for a particular city. You could probably increase salvations there many fold. It would just shift the salvations perhaps from one area to the area of focus. God leaves more up to us. Pray without ceasing, The effectual fervent prayer of a rightoues man availeth much, Ask and it shall be given... Calvinists do some great works, Yes, I am sure they are saved, Yes, some are fervent. In the end though I think they will be surprised. If i am wrong and it motivates me to try harder, what is the harm?
I admit that I am a slacker to a point. However if I were Calvinist I would probably slack even more. Seems silly to try to change someone like myself especially as there are scriptures that will support either view.

 

[Dan1988]

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​

Faith is a gift that God give ever person at birth, unless a person is born with some type of birth defect that inhibits them to be able to exercise the act of belief in their life.

Faith is used in daily life by all people all over the earth.

What makes the belief/ faith special used in receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation. Is not they have been given a special type of belief/faith, but it is the object of their belief Jesus and God's promised that all who believe in Jesus receives God's free gift of Eternal Life.

As this believe requires not other action besides simply believing God at His promise/word. The belief does not require repentance, baptism, a life time of obedience, saying a prayer, a commitment to follow Jesus, confessing Jesus as Lord, etc..........

It's not true to say that God gives faith to every person at birth, because every person is born with a sin nature. As such nobody has any faith in God. We cannot believe in Gods promise, because the things of God are foolishness to the natural man.

The only people who receive the gift of faith are those who God choses to give it to. Nobody choses to become a believer, that's impossible. If God doesn't quicken you to life, then you will remain dead in your sin forever. a dead person can do nothing, let alone make a decision to make himself alive.

God elected to save a number of people, before He created the world. He wrote their names in His book and only they will be saved, nobody can do anything to make God add their names to His book.
None of what you wrote is biblically correct, you just made it all up. So it's nothing more than wishful thinking.

 

[d taylor]

It's not true to say that God gives faith to every person at birth, because every person is born with a sin nature. As such nobody has any faith in God. We cannot believe in Gods promise, because the things of God are foolishness to the natural man.

The only people who receive the gift of faith are those who God choses to give it to. Nobody choses to become a believer, that's impossible. If God doesn't quicken you to life, then you will remain dead in your sin forever. a dead person can do nothing, let alone make a decision to make himself alive.

God elected to save a number of people, before He created the world. He wrote their names in His book and only they will be saved, nobody can do anything to make God add their names to His book.
None of what you wrote is biblically correct, you just made it all up. So it's nothing more than wishful thinking.

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It is a simple fact that people have the ability to exercise faith in their lives. You can say i am making that up all you want, but i see this everyday. especially in children.

 

[Dan1988]

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. the word there is rhema, so "spoken word" to your heart. Is it a gift, or an attempt by man to know God? A combination of both. I would say too that some do not want to find God but intercession will work. Get their heart to open up so they can't shut out God. This is the problem with Calvinism and election. God wants all to be saved but it is up to the church. God assists but we are the vessels. An easy point is from the old testament where God said if a prophet did not speak, the blood is on his hands. If God did everyone's salvation with no assistance why would their blood be on their hands?

I did a paper on the top three evangelists according to salvations in recent times. TL Osborn, Rheinhard Bonnke, Billy Graham. All in the millions getting decisions for Christ. All have statements rejecting reform theology and saying that their efforts in God make a difference because they believed all (everyone) could be saved. That God does not predetermine election. George Whitfield by the way was a great reform evangelist in the 18th century.

Hypothetically, if all Christians prayed and fasted specifically for a particular city. You could probably increase salvations there many fold. It would just shift the salvations perhaps from one area to the area of focus. God leaves more up to us. Pray without ceasing, The effectual fervent prayer of a rightoues man availeth much, Ask and it shall be given... Calvinists do some great works, Yes, I am sure they are saved, Yes, some are fervent. In the end though I think they will be surprised. If i am wrong and it motivates me to try harder, what is the harm?
I admit that I am a slacker to a point. However if I were Calvinist I would probably slack even more. Seems silly to try to change someone like myself especially as there are scriptures that will support either view.

I wasn't able to agree with any of the points you made. It's true faith does come by hearing and hearing by the word of God, but only those who God gives the gift of faith will believe.
As you know two people can hear the same word of God, and one rejects it, because he has not been given the gift of faith, while the other receives it because God chose to give him the gift of faith.

Your Arminian theology, doesn't have any answers as to why some reject the gospel while other embrace it.

Those three "evangelists" you wrote about were all false prophets who sold the gospel like a consumer product. This resulted in a 99.9% fail rate, where the vast majority of those who were coaxed into making a profession of faith, were victims of hi pressure snake oil salesmen.

You can't sell salvation like a consumer product, God doesn't come to the party when you use those deceptive tactics.

In my Church, we never have alter calls, and if somebody wants to join our Church, they have to go through a long procedure before they are accepted into our Church. This procedure takes many months and the Church can still reject their application, if they don't pass every single test that we put them through. We have hi standards, while Arminian Churches accept anyone, even drug addicts and prostitutes.

You can pray and preach as much as you like, but if God hasn't chosen to save that person then they will never become believers.

 

[Dan1988]

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It is a simple fact that people have the ability to exercise faith in their lives. You can say i am making that up all you want, but i see this everyday. especially in children.

I think we're talking about two different things here. The type of faith your talking about is the type a child has for his father while he's learning to walk. The child has faith that his father won't let go of his hand and cause him to fall, that's a temporal carnal faith which animals have as well. It's the faith everyone has in what they can see.

I'm talking about a faith in the things which are not seen, to put your faith in the promises of God is to believe in things that are not seen as they are in the spiritual realm. God is a Spirit, ,and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit. That's very different to the faith you described.

 

[d taylor]

I think we're talking about two different things here. The type of faith your talking about is the type a child has for his father while he's learning to walk. The child has faith that his father won't let go of his hand and cause him to fall, that's a temporal carnal faith which animals have as well. It's the faith everyone has in what they can see.

I'm talking about a faith in the things which are not seen, to put your faith in the promises of God is to believe in things that are not seen as they are in the spiritual realm. God is a Spirit, ,and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit. That's very different to the faith you described.

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Nope there is only one type of faith. A person boards an airplane they have faith that they will arrive at their destination safely. Because that is an exercise of faith. As many people have not arrived safely and have actually died, but they boarded the air plane, believing just like others that they would arrive safety.

A person either believes in a person, a promised, a stated information, etc.. or they do not. When person is convinced information is true they will exercise faith and believe it.

A child is taught in school at an early age the earth is a globe, they exercise faith and either believe what their teacher says or they do not. But there is no way for the child to go out and see for themselves if this is true or not.