God's Intervention

[humblehumility]

This kind of piggy-backs on another thread of mine, but I want to narrow this all down to one question.

My question assumes that :

a) God is real
b) God intervenes physically in our world
c) God seeks justice
d) God wants Earth to be "good", as it were to him directly after creation

If you disagree with my assumptions, address those first before the question. If you agree with my assumptions, let's move on to the question.

Rather than having to intervene in an action such as the flood, killing billions of his creation, why would God not intervene and just eliminate Satan from the Garden of Eden?

Instead of killing off billions of life which was his creation, he would only have to kill off one evil entity. There would be no temptation, no original sin, and no need for a bloody human sacrifice. Adam & Eve would remain happily naked and then would multiply and make more happily naked people. We would be abundant on the Earth, God would see that it was good (just like he did), and we'd all live in harmony.

Please only directly respond to the question I bolded.

 

[drich0150]

Rather than having to intervene in an action such as the flood, killing billions of his creation, why would God not intervene and just eliminate Satan from the Garden of Eden?

Life is about choice. How could there be a choice if there was nothing to choose from?

Instead of killing off billions of life which was his creation, he would only have to kill off one evil entity. There would be no temptation, no original sin, and no need for a bloody human sacrifice. Adam & Eve would remain happily naked and then would multiply and make more happily naked people. We would be abundant on the Earth, God would see that it was good (just like he did), and we'd all live in harmony.

Would we? The fallen had all that you described, but did not live in harmony why do you supose that is?

 

[humblehumility]

Life is about choice. How could there be a choice if there was nothing to choose from?

What were God's intentions in creating Adam & Eve to live in the Garden? Did he not intend for them to live in perfect harmony forever?

You're looking at the free will argument with tunnel vision. There are still millions of choices Adam, Eve, and all of us could make. Eggs or bagel for breakfast? White or red shirt? Nike or Addias shoes? It's very easy to have free will without evil.

why do you supose that is?

Because Satan deceived them into committing original sin. That's what this entire thread is about...

As a side note, I see you ignored my response in the 'Satan' thread.

 

[drich0150]

What were God's intentions in creating Adam & Eve to live in the Garden? Did he not intend for them to live in perfect harmony forever?

This was God's intention, but ultimately it was our choice.

You're looking at the free will argument with tunnel vision. There are still millions of choices Adam, Eve, and all of us could make. Eggs or bagel for breakfast? White or red shirt? Nike or Addias shoes? It's very easy to have free will without evil.

Actually no you can not. You are describing freedom of personal choice. Free will as the bible outlines it, is the ability to choose a course of action outside the expressed will of God. in other words "Free will" is the ability to sin.

Because Satan deceived them into committing original sin. That's what this entire thread is about...

You are missing the larger picture. Eve was discontented and accepted what Satan had to say over that over that of her God. The "deception" was only viable if and when she choose to want more than what God offered her.

As a side note, I see you ignored my response in the 'Satan' thread

I respond to alot of threads, and sometimes over look one. Give me a post number and I will go back and address it.

 

[pinkputter]

If you believe in Christianity you have to believe in something bigger than yourself. Yes, here we go with the "p" word: pride.

As Christians we don't mind Satan existing because we know who is Victorious: not him. How can you win a game with no opposing team?

We win in the end, so it makes life's troubles, which Paul describes as NOTHING compared to the glory we will receive, seem pretty petty and manageable.

 

[humblehumility]

This was God's intention, but ultimately it was our choice.

Ok, so God intended us to live without free will then? Because that's what you just said, and it means there's no point in allowing Satan in the Garden.

Actually no you can not. You are describing freedom of personal choice.

Freedom of personal choice is what free will is.

Free will as the bible outlines it, is the ability to choose a course of action outside the expressed will of God. in other words "Free will" is the ability to sin.

You keep saying this in thread after thread, but have never posted any Biblical proof of God saying this. Give me exact vereses in scripture.

You are missing the larger picture. Eve was discontented and accepted what Satan had to say over that over that of her God. The "deception" was only viable if and when she choose to want more than what God offered her.

Eve didn't know that eating from either of the trees would give her the power of God, Satan had to make that aware to her (a la deception). Without Satan making her aware, she wouldn't know this and would live happily ever after in the Garden praising God just like she was before Satan popped in.

 

[humblehumility]

If you believe in Christianity you have to believe in something bigger than yourself. Yes, here we go with the "p" word: pride.

As Christians we don't mind Satan existing because we know who is Victorious: not him. How can you win a game with no opposing team?

We win in the end, so it makes life's troubles, which Paul describes as NOTHING compared to the glory we will receive, seem pretty petty and manageable.

Apparently you didn't read my full post.

Please only directly respond to the question I bolded.

You didn't do anything to answer my question. Interestingly enough

How can you win a game with no opposing team?

So God created this all to be one big "game" that we have to "win"? That's your worldview and perception of reality? Eesh.

 

[drich0150]

OK, so God intended us to live without free will then?

No

Because that's what you just said, and it means there's no point in allowing Satan in the Garden.

It seems you are confused. Planting the tree of knowledge in the middle of the Garden was the actual choice. Or the option for man to choose his own will over that of His own. Allowing Satan to temp Adam and Eve facilities said choice.

Freedom of personal choice is what free will is.

Actually no, this is only your understanding of it. (Where is your biblical proof that your understanding of "free will" is what God intended?)

You keep saying this in thread after thread, but have never posted any Biblical proof of God saying this. Give me exact verses in scripture.

See your Satan thread. And since you are now representing a "Free will" From a biblical position I also ask you for "proof."

Eve didn't know that eating from either of the trees would give her the power of God,

That is not what Genesis tells us.

Satan had to make that aware to her (a la deception). Without Satan making her aware, she wouldn't know this and would live happily ever after in the Garden praising God just like she was before Satan popped in

Satan only pointed out the discontent already in her heart. No discontent, no sin. I have "opportunity" presented to me all of the time. In most cases because I am content with what I am being tempted with, I do not sin.

 

[pinkputter]

Apparently you didn't read my full post.



You didn't do anything to answer my question. Interestingly enough



So God created this all to be one big "game" that we have to "win"? That's your worldview and perception of reality? Eesh.

No. I didn't address your OP word-for-word. But my post is still valid and on-topic to the thread.

I'll go back and break everything down if that's what you want. It's not a big deal.

That's absolutely not my worldview, that's an alteration of what I am saying. Why would my worldview be an analogy? Since you obviously didn't get my analogy, let me explain it to you another way.

God took, and ever-presently takes that which is evil, sin, the original sin of Satan turning away from God, and turns it into Goodness and Justice by allowing humans, His children, freedom of will to worship whomever or whatever they please, knowing that Justice will be served and Satan's head will be crushed as we find refuge in Christ. That's my world-view. I guess. I mean my world-view is Christian? I'm just explaining that analogy. k? understand now?

 

[pinkputter]

My question assumes that :

a) God is real
b) God intervenes physically in our world
c) God seeks justice
d) God wants Earth to be "good", as it were to him directly after creation

If you disagree with my assumptions, address those first before the question. If you agree with my assumptions, let's move on to the question.

Rather than having to intervene in an action such as the flood, killing billions of his creation, why would God not intervene and just eliminate Satan from the Garden of Eden?

I agree with all the assumptions but the last. He just wants us to be honest. I fully believe that. Of course He wants goodness. He is the *source* of goodness. He's the biggest most full-fledge advocate of goodness there ever is. But His relationship with us is built on a level of Trust and independence. He trusts us to come to Him as He made us with the ability to come to know Him. He just wants a relationship. Then, from that, good will come (this is all explained in the Bible)

Now, back-tracking a bit, you may not have *liked* the response I gave. But it was very much on topic to your bolded question. You may want to go reread your question then reread my 1st response. It's an answer to your question.

 

[ebia]

This kind of piggy-backs on another thread of mine, but I want to narrow this all down to one question.

My question assumes that :

a) God is real
b) God intervenes physically in our world
c) God seeks justice
d) God wants Earth to be "good", as it were to him directly after creation

If you disagree with my assumptions, address those first before the question. If you agree with my assumptions, let's move on to the question.

Rather than having to intervene in an action such as the flood, killing billions of his creation, why would God not intervene and just eliminate Satan from the Garden of Eden?

Instead of killing off billions of life which was his creation, he would only have to kill off one evil entity. There would be no temptation, no original sin, and no need for a bloody human sacrifice. Adam & Eve would remain happily naked and then would multiply and make more happily naked people. We would be abundant on the Earth, God would see that it was good (just like he did), and we'd all live in harmony.

Please only directly respond to the question I bolded.

The Genesis 2-3 story is about human free choice. The possibility of evil cannot be eliminated without that free choice being eliminated. God wanted beings capable of being his image in and for the world. That necessarily involves the risk that they will choose badly - that evil will appear.

Us having done so, the Noah story (which goes right to the end of chapter 9) is the bible's answer to the question "why does God not simply wipe out evil?". Because the difference between good and evil is not between us and them but runs right down the middle of each and every one of us.

 

[humblehumility]

It seems you are confused. Planting the tree of knowledge in the middle of the Garden was the actual choice. Or the option for man to choose his own will over that of His own. Allowing Satan to temp Adam and Eve facilities said choice.

This has nothing to do with what you previously said. You said God's intentions were for us to live in perfect harmony on Earth. He accomplished that, and then allowed Satan to bait Eve into screwing us all over. Before Satan, God was happy with his creation and saw that it was "good". It was "good" before we had choice/free will. So God intended us to live in his "goodness" without free will. Then he changed the rules for some (wicked) reason.

Actually no, this is only your understanding of it. (Where is your biblical proof that your understanding of "free will" is what God intended?)

The Bible doesn't directly talk about free will at all, that's why you still haven't given me any references from scripture detailing this. What the Bible does say is that God clearly establishes his will (that you follow his commandments and believe in Jesus), and that we have a free will choice to either follow his rules, or break them. That is part of our free will, saying that's all of what free will is like I said is looking at it with tunnel-vision.

Choosing to not follow God's commandments is an expression of our personal choice not to. Personal choice = free will.

See your Satan thread. And since you are now representing a "Free will" From a biblical position I also ask you for "proof."

You posted no verses detailing free will. I'll ask again that you do so.

That is not what Genesis tells us.

What is the point of copying a fragment of my sentence, arguing that, while completely ignoring the rest of the sentence? Before Satan, Eve didn't know she'd have the power of God by eating from the tree.

Satan only pointed out the discontent already in her heart. No discontent, no sin. I have "opportunity" presented to me all of the time. In most cases because I am content with what I am being tempted with, I do not sin.

That's subjective. In no way can you prove that Eve was unhappy with her life in paradise.

 

[drich0150]

This has nothing to do with what you previously said.

Actually it does. Your just not able to make the connection using your current line of thought.

You said God's intentions were for us to live in perfect harmony on Earth.

His intentions was to have us choose to live in perfect harmony with Him. "We" did not do so.

He accomplished that, and then allowed Satan to bait Eve into screwing us all over.

We can not "Choose" if we do not understand the choice being presented.
Enter Satan..

Before Satan, God was happy with his creation and saw that it was "good".

"Good" does not mean complete. Good means acceptable.

It was "good" before we had choice/free will. So God intended us to live in his "goodness" without free will.

We are to live with out "Sin" after this life is over.

Then he changed the rules for some (wicked) reason.

No, He simply allowed the second part of His plan unfold. As I have already said, we know "Free will" was apart of the plan from the beginning because of the timing and placement of the tree of knowledge in the garden. If God wanted us to live without the ability to sin then the only thing that would facilitate sin would not have been planted in the garden.

The Bible doesn't directly talk about free will at all, that's why you still haven't given me any references from scripture detailing this.

Actually it does, in how it is modeled in account of the Fall of man. There are no direct commands speaking to or refuting your understanding of it is because, the causality based philosophy you speak of was something that came along 1000's of years after the biblical understanding of that term was written down.

What the Bible does say is that God clearly establishes his will (that you follow his commandments and believe in Jesus),

This is also known as God's Expressed will

and that we have a free will choice to either follow his rules, or break them.

Which when we break those rules is known as sin.

That is part of our free will, saying that's all of what free will is like I said is looking at it with tunnel-vision.

Everything else you have tacked on to these biblical backed principles you have admitted to, is from a personal philosophical POV. IF you do not believe this to be true, then by all means answer your own challenge and please provide us with Book Chapter and verse.

Choosing to not follow God's commandments is an expression of our personal choice not to. Personal choice = free will.

Again you are representing all personal choice as free will, so one more time. show me in scripture where this is modeled as you are teaching it.

You posted no verses detailing free will. I'll ask again that you do so.

You have at this point apparently not followed up on the Satan thread you asked that I respond to. I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

What is the point of copying a fragment of my sentence, arguing that, while completely ignoring the rest of the sentence? Before Satan, Eve didn't know she'd have the power of God by eating from the tree.

Because I thought it obvious that what she did know, (what God told her: not to eat of the tree, or she would die) was enough for you to understand the point I was driving at.

That's subjective. In no way can you prove that Eve was unhappy with her life in paradise.

After a big and satisfying meal, do you or would you be tempted to eat another? After quenching your thirst with a big glass of water do you or would you be tempted to drink another? After you have bought the house of your dreams would you look to buy another? Eve wanted more. She wanted what God had. Does this sound like someone who was content or does this sound like someone who was hungery for something?

The truth of the matter is we do not know how long Adam and Eve were in the garden before the fall of Man. It could have been a week month or year.. Or 100 years or 1000 years or 1,000,000 years or all of the time between how old our best scientists say the earth is, and about 6000 or 7000 years ago when "we" can trace back the genealogies.

If the scientists are correct and Adam and Eve were in the garden for 400 million or so years, do you think that is enough time to find discontentment in what God gave them? Is 400 million years enough time for someone to "become hungery" for something different in you opinion?

 

[Emmy]

Dear humblehumility. You had some good replies, may I just answer two more? Jesus vanquished Satan on Golgotha, Satan has no power over us, unless we let him, and fall for his evil temptations. Satan knows that he is allowed to go so far, and no farther, and when Satan`s time comes to be of no use to our Almighty God, Satan will be no more. As for the earthquakes and other natural disasters, God has put Nature in command, and time often does much damage. God put Man in charge of the World, and Mankind is learning to overcome and alleviate many disasters and deadly consequences. God only intervenes when we ask and pray for it, God gave us free will to choose our own way of life. God is always ready to help and lead us away from wrong or undeserved happenings, But we musk Ask in sincere prayer. I say this with love, humblehumility. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ. P.S. As long as Satan is not interferring with Christ`s followers, God will allow him some more time. But God is in charge. and Christians know that Satan is the vanquished adversary.

 

[humblehumility]

His intentions was to have us choose to live in perfect harmony with Him. "We" did not do so.

I guess I didn't interpret your response accurately, I understand what you are saying here though. I still don't think it makes sense given the timeline of Genesis 1-3. God created everything perfectly, saw it was good, ??? period of ??? years, and then we're given the option to choose to love him or not.

I'd also contend that it's Adam & Eve who did not do so, not "we". I haven't been given a chance to see what a perfect Earth is like.

We can not "Choose" if we do not understand the choice being presented.
Enter Satan..

While I've never experienced a world without evil, I can imagine what one might be like and I will tell you I'd choose that over this in a heartbeat. If I had a choice between living on the current Earth, or living on a perfect planet with no disease, natural disaster, or mental disparity...it's a no-brainer. I have no problem not following Satan if I'm granted a perfect world to live in.

"Good" does not mean complete. Good means acceptable.

Ok, so God saw that what he made was acceptable. Then he lets Satan into the picture, knowing that Satan would corrupt the entire world. I don't see the point.

We are to live with out "Sin" after this life is over.

Maybe.

No, He simply allowed the second part of His plan unfold. As I have already said, we know "Free will" was apart of the plan from the beginning because of the timing and placement of the tree of knowledge in the garden. If God wanted us to live without the ability to sin then the only thing that would facilitate sin would not have been planted in the garden.

Some plan. God knew that Plan B would fail miserably, yet he pressed on with it.

Actually it does, in how it is modeled in account of the Fall of man. There are no direct commands speaking to or refuting your understanding of it is because, the causality based philosophy you speak of was something that came along 1000's of years after the biblical understanding of that term was written down.

So you don't have any definition of free will in the Bible, okay. Again, the fall of man demonstrates one thing that can result from our free will, not everything. Free will is not only the ability to commit sin, it's the ability to make any choice you want to make. Sinning is a personal choice, so you could say "Free will is the ability to commit a personal choice", and it would still be accurate. Therefore, freedom of personal choice is free will, and God could create that without needing evil.

Everything else you have tacked on to these biblical backed principles you have admitted to, is from a personal philosophical POV. IF you do not believe this to be true, then by all means answer your own challenge and please provide us with Book Chapter and verse.

I've already said that the Bible doesn't directly talk about free will. It does mention the choice we have to either follow God or not follow him, but that does not represent the entirety of free will. The only way you can come to that conclusion is by showing me where the Bible says that.

I am saying free will is not just the ability to sin. I can't prove a negative.

After a big and satisfying meal, do you or would you be tempted to eat another?

No, as I would be full and have no physical need or mental desire for more food.

After quenching your thirst with a big glass of water do you or would you be tempted to drink another?

No, as my thirst would be quenched.

After you have bought the house of your dreams would you look to buy another?

No, if it is the house of my dreams then I have no reason to want to live outside of my dream house.

Eve wanted more. She wanted what God had. Does this sound like someone who was content or does this sound like someone who was hungery for something?

Eve was the first woman to ever exist, and she was tricked by the devil via deception. That's like telling a child "Don't eat candy, it will make you sick" and then having an uncle say "It's okay kid, the candy tastes great and will make you super strong! Trust me, you're fine eating it." Obviously the child will go for the candy, not because they "desire more", but because they are a child. It's very easy to deceive children and take advantage of their undeveloped psyche.

If the scientists are correct and Adam and Eve were in the garden for 400 million or so years, do you think that is enough time to find discontentment in what God gave them? Is 400 million years enough time for someone to "become hungery" for something different in you opinion?

What scientists do you follow? Homo sapiens (man) have only been around for 200,000 years max.

If Adam and Eve were living on Earth for millions of years, my God how stupid are they? They couldn't develop round Earth theory or ANY form of science? Look what we've done in the past 100 years.

That's all irrelevant anyways. As literally as we're taking Genesis, the Earth is only a few thousand years old OR God severely distorted our laws of physics and then gave us tons of false evidence that the Universe is in fact billions of years old.

 

[razeontherock]

Rather than having to intervene in an action such as the flood, killing billions of his creation, why would God not intervene and just eliminate Satan from the Garden of Eden?

You're still operating under an assumption: that He hasn't.

It is WE who are stuck in time, and from our limited POV many things don't make sense. This is the thrust of the first story in the Bible, and we dimly see the hope that this condition will be relieved in the last story of the Bible.

So the only question is HOW He will do this thing. And the answer, like most answers, is Jesus Christ! The only variable is, who's side are you and I on?

 

[humblehumility]

So the only question is HOW He will do this thing. And the answer, like most answers, is Jesus Christ! The only variable is, who's side are you and I on?

As stated in another thread, I am not on the side of the ideology that 1 human sacrifice can save every human in existence from eternal damnation.

For instance, say I beat a random child but I truly repent and ask Jesus to forgive me of my sin. Jesus has paid for that sin and I am relieved of it's burden. But what of the child that was beaten? What of the child's parents who had to deal with the psychological stress of having their child hurt? Is their pain taken away? Do they forget what happened? Is the child not traumatized for life? The sacrifice of Jesus doesn't save anybody from anything, we are all individually responsible for our actions, and we cannot transfer this responsibility. It's not moral, it's not just, and it's certainly not loving.

Instead of saying "These things don't make sense to me, but God is the greater reality and understands it", I say "These things don't make sense to me, this means I have no reason to believe they're true".

 

[razeontherock]

False dilemma. Posing logical fallacies in place of Gospel Truth is not sound reasoning.

 

[humblehumility]

False dilemma. Posing logical fallacies in place of Gospel Truth is not sound reasoning.

Care to elaborate? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding something.

 

[razeontherock]

Nowhere does the Bible say "go ahead and randomly beat some child and ... all is well."

In fact we have quite a bit to the opposite of that. Try this for starters:

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
(Romans 6:2) God forbid."