God's Decree

BobRyan

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BobRyan said:
God sovereignly decreed free will (no one forced Him to choose to do that)-- and that put the level of indirection needed to disconnect God from having blame for any act of evil that would arise. Thus "He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11 puts none of the blame on God - who is the first-actor the first motivator the one who took the initiative.
How do we understand 'free will'?

1. God sovereignly chose free will as the system that his creation would operate under. So Adam and Eve just like Lucifer - had free will.

2. Mankind became depraved in spirit and inclined toward sin at the fall of Adam. apart from the supernatural work of God - they would remain slaves of sin.

3. God supernaturally "draws all mankind unto Him" John 12:32 which enables the "choice to accept the Gospel" that is disabled by depravity. All are enabled to make that choice - but it is because God sovereignly chooses to supernaturally draw them. Not force them.. draw them.

"I STAND at the door and knock - IF anyone hears My voice AND opens the door... I will come in" Rev 3

The lost sinner is alone without Christ. But Christ is knocking on the door and enabling that sinner to hear and to choose to open the door IF they will.

That’s quite the abuse of scripture.


“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this: ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth. Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked, I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see. Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.

and then you posted

Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

BTW - there is no such thing as "Salvation without Christ" the one who is alone on the inside with Christ on the outside who has not yet opened the door... is not yet saved.

this is the saved experience.

Gal 2: "20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me."

The point remains.
 
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Hammster

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1. God sovereignly chose free will as the system that his creation would operate under. So Adam and Eve just like Lucifer - had free will.

2. Mankind became depraved in spirit and inclined toward sin at the fall of Adam. apart from the supernatural work of God - they would remain slaves of sin.

3. God supernaturally "draws all mankind unto Him" John 12:32 which enables the "choice to accept the Gospel" that is disabled by depravity. All are enabled to make that choice - but it is because God sovereignly chooses to supernaturally draw them. Not force them.. draw them.

"I STAND at the door and knock - IF anyone hears My voice AND opens the door... I will come in" Rev 3

The lost sinner is alone without Christ. But Christ is knocking on the door and enabling that sinner to hear and to choose to open the door IF they will.



and then you posted



BTW - there is no such thing as "Salvation without Christ" the one who is alone on the inside with Christ on the outside who has not yet opened the door... is not yet saved.

this is the saved experience.

Gal 2: "20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me."

The point remains.
Yes, the point remains. Revelation was written to the church.
 
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renniks

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Renniks,

I haven't said anything different than what Isaiah 37:26-27 affirms and maintains, unless you can find a better explanation?
Did God also bring about the rebellion of his people or the evil in the hearts of all? Of course God does as he pleases, that doesn't mean he causes everything. That would make him schizophrenic.
 
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renniks

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God decreed all things whatsoever comes to pass, then we can find comfort that God has control over the affairs of our lives and the world around us. It gives assurance to our fears, doubts and struggles in every trial, temptation and tribulation we may face. God has decreed this for my good, and nothing can thwart his purpose in it for me.
Comfort in knowing God decreed our fears, our doubt, our sin, and everything that opposes him? That he decreed rape and hate and lying, things scripture says he hated?
 
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Hammster

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Did God also bring about the rebellion of his people or the evil in the hearts of all? Of course God does as he pleases, that doesn't mean he causes everything. That would make him schizophrenic.
He could have prevented the rebellion in the Garden.
 
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BobRyan

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Yes, the point remains. Revelation was written to the church.

Revelation deals with both the lost and the saved and not everyone who reads it is saved.

That point remains.

There is no such thing as salvation apart from Christ - separated from Christ.

That point remains.

Gal 2:20 is a description of the saved condition.

That point remains.

===============================
Given these easy steps - upon which almost all denominations agree - the rest is obvious.
 
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renniks

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He had intentions of their sinning, that's your only answer. He planted that tree with a motive that gave the possibility of a fall, and allowed the consequences to be so severe that generation to come would becomes worse sinners than their first parents, committing worse crimes against humanity!
Knowing is not causation. If choices are truly free, God did this knowing what would be required to win some back to him, his own death. Is that a crime against humanity? If this is the best of all possible worlds, it was allow sin to corrupt his good plan, but save all who would be willing, or not create us at all. Perhaps fellowship with a few was better in his eyes than none, in spite of having to make a great sacrifice for us. God became us to know us intimately. He did not intend sin, but he did intend for us to have the freedom to accept him or reject him. That's the most likely, given what we know from scripture.
 
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renniks

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He could have prevented the rebellion in the Garden.
How do you know? If this is the best of all possible world's, sin was inevitable. Preventing the fall would have prevented real choices. Apparently, God prefers friends to slaves
 
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Hammster

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Revelation deals with both the lost and the saved and not everyone who reads it is saved.

That point remains.

There is no such thing as salvation apart from Christ - separated from Christ.

That point remains.

Gal 2:20 is a description of the saved condition.

That point remains.

===============================
Given these easy steps - upon which almost all denominations agree - the rest is obvious.
My argument is with your abuse that Christ knocks on the door and if unbelievers open it, He comes in. That’s not what the text says.
 
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Hammster

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How do you know? If this is the best of all possible world's, sin was inevitable. Preventing the fall would have prevented real choices. Apparently, God prefers friends to slaves
First off, God is sovereign. He does whatever He pleases. Second, He could have not created Satan. He could have not allowed him into the garden. He could not have made a law. He could have guarded the tree.

Etc
 
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HatGuy

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If he ordained some things, but not all things, then all things were ordained. I wonder if you have thought about that, yet.
Perhaps we are talking at cross-purposes. I assume you're meaning "pre-"ordained (given the OP) but I could be wrong.

Now, if you want to answer the verse I posed to another member, you are free to do so. However, your answer doesn't really address the verse. It does imply all things are predetermined (see first paragraph). Also, "days of old" is a literary device. There isn't any other way to read that, in context. God is immutable, he doesn't determine something on a whim.
I don't see why "days of old" and "long ago" from the verse implies ALL THINGS are predetermined (bolded above). In the direct verse quoted, why could it not mean that this specific thing was planned from "long ago"?

I don't see how that would over-ride God's immutability.

May I ask to quote where I said that "all things are governed by his divine providence," so that I would understand the context? It would help, because I have not equated it with predetermination, but have used it as a consequence of the aforementioned. Thank you.

Here, from what I understand, God rebukes Sennacherib, king of Assyria, for his insolence and comforts king Hezekiah that all things are governed by his divine providence. What say you?
 
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BobRyan

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Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

BTW - there is no such thing as "Salvation without Christ" the one who is alone on the inside with Christ on the outside who has not yet opened the door... is not yet saved.

this is the saved experience.

Gal 2: "20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me."

My argument is with your abuse that Christ knocks on the door and if unbelievers open it, He comes in. That’s not what the text says.

That is exactly what it says - because as we all know -- there is no such thing as salvation apart from Christ. How is this not obvious?

Is it your claim that everyone in church is born-again? I doubt you believe that.

Is it your claim that only lost people attending church in some way qualify for this - and not "lost people" in general??
 
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Hammster

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BTW - there is no such thing as "Salvation without Christ" the one who is alone on the inside with Christ on the outside who has not yet opened the door... is not yet saved.

this is the saved experience.

Gal 2: "20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me."



That is exactly what it says - because as we all know -- there is no such thing as salvation apart from Christ. How is this not obvious?

Is it your claim that everyone in church is born-again? I doubt you believe that.

Is it your claim that only lost people attending church in some way qualify for this - and not "lost people" in general??
My claim is that the verse you are hung up on is not evangelical.
 
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BobRyan

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Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

BTW - there is no such thing as "Salvation without Christ" the one who is alone on the inside with Christ on the outside who has not yet opened the door... is not yet saved.

this is the saved experience.

Gal 2: "20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me."

My argument is with your abuse that Christ knocks on the door and if unbelievers open it, He comes in. That’s not what the text says.

That is exactly what it says - because as we all know -- there is no such thing as salvation apart from Christ. How is this not obvious?

Is it your claim that everyone in church is born-again? I doubt you believe that.

Is it your claim that only lost people attending church in some way qualify for this - and not "lost people" in general??

My claim is that the verse you are hung up on is not evangelical.

?? you can't be serious.

I gave you the key facts above that dictate that it is in fact a matter of salvation to have "Christ in you" --

If your argument is that you can be saved without it - please give Bible facts showing that such a presumption has the support of scripture.

We can all believe that you are claiming what you say you are claiming.. and we can all claim anything as well... but what about the support of scripture for such claims?
 
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zoidar

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Hammster

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BTW - there is no such thing as "Salvation without Christ" the one who is alone on the inside with Christ on the outside who has not yet opened the door... is not yet saved.

this is the saved experience.

Gal 2: "20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me."



That is exactly what it says - because as we all know -- there is no such thing as salvation apart from Christ. How is this not obvious?

Is it your claim that everyone in church is born-again? I doubt you believe that.

Is it your claim that only lost people attending church in some way qualify for this - and not "lost people" in general??



?? you can't be serious.

I gave you the key facts above that dictate that it is in fact a matter of salvation to have "Christ in you" --

If your argument is that you can be saved without it - please give Bible facts showing that such a presumption has the support of scripture.

We can all believe that you are claiming what you say you are claiming.. and we can all claim anything as well... but what about the support of scripture for such claims?
I said it’s not evangelical. So trying to say that I’m saying that one can be saved without it is a bit misleading.
 
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BobRyan

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I said it’s not evangelical. So trying to say that I’m saying that one can be saved without it is a bit misleading.

I "assume" that when you say "not evangelical" you mean that in Rev 3 the person who is without Christ but then opens the door and it is then "Christ in me the hope of glory" is not describing the lost state going to the saved state -- which would mean you suppose that being without Christ is another form of the "saved state".

If you have some other idea - please feel free to explain what you mean. I am sure we can all benefit.
 
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Hammster

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I "assume" that when you say "not evangelical" you mean that in Rev 3 the person who is without Christ but then opens the door and it is then "Christ in me the hope of glory" is not describing the lost state going to the saved state -- which would mean you suppose that being without Christ is another form of the "saved state".

If you have some other idea - please feel free to explain what you mean. I am sure we can all benefit.
It’s more eschatological. Christ is talking of His eminent return.

And I’m sure you’ll disagree.

And this will take the thread off topic.

So how about this. Let’s assume that your understanding is correct. How does that affect the OP?
 
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BobRyan

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I said it’s not evangelical. So trying to say that I’m saying that one can be saved without it is a bit misleading.

I "assume" that when you say "not evangelical" you mean that in Rev 3 the person who is without Christ but then opens the door and it is then "Christ in me the hope of glory" is not describing the lost state going to the saved state -- which would mean you suppose that being without Christ is another form of the "saved state".

Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

If you have some other idea - please feel free to explain what you mean. I am sure we can all benefit.

It’s more eschatological. Christ is talking of His eminent return.

It looks like it is salvific since in That section the "alternative" to opening the door is having Christ spew out the person who is unsaved and luke-warm. And I know of now other salvation state other than the one described in Gal 2:20

And I’m sure you’ll disagree.

And this will take the thread off topic.

So how about this. Let’s assume that your understanding is correct. How does that affect the OP?

Good question.

It shows that the lost person would need to "choose" to open the door.

"From all eternity God decreed everything that occurs, without reference to anything outside himself. He did this by the perfectly wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably. Yet God did this in such a way that he is neither the author of sin nor has fellowship with any in their sin.​


Rev 3 instead of "barging down the door to make the person do according to some "decree" we have "I STAND" at the door and knock".

Same case as in Romans 10
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

There is no "IF God decrees that you confess..." as if the reason for failure to confess - is that God failed to decree it.

Isaiah 5:4 God asks regarding those failing to accept Him "what MORE Could I have done other than that which I have already done!"

He "stands" at the door and knocks... He does not barge down the door.



 
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