God's Decree

renniks

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God may use second causes and other variables to direct free-working agents (humans) to act, freely of their own accord, freely from their own desires, that which he wants to occur without having a hand in the act itself.
Lol, did you really read what you wrote here? If I use others to bring about evil actions, I'm somehow not to blame for that evil? Total nonsense . Besides, it's a contradiction to say some one freely acts if God is directing thier every action. What you would have is only the illusion of freedom, but in reality, robots.
 
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renniks

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Well, it depends on what we mean by "foreknowledge."

Also, an attribute is never alone, it is always overlapping other attributes of God, because he is not made of parts, but is one. I encourage you to study divine simplicity.
That's a non answer. What I mean by stand alone is that it doesn't depend on anything or anyone else.
 
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Neogaia777

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"From all eternity God decreed everything that occurs, without reference to anything outside himself. He did this by the perfectly wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably. Yet God did this in such a way that he is neither the author of sin nor has fellowship with any in their sin. This decree does not violate the will of the creature or take away the free working or contingency of second causes. On the contrary, these are established by God’s decree. In this decree God’s wisdom is displayed in directing all things, and his power and faithfulness are demonstrated in accomplishing his decree."

- Chapter 3, Section 1, Second London Baptist Confession of 1689
Do you agree with this statement? Please provide Scripture to support your answer.
No, I do not, not at all, it's just a bunch or pretty words that are a clear contradiction of how God can be both all-knowing and not all-knowing at the same time, and is a way of deception if you ask me...

And the way I explain it is too heretical for this forum, and also alot of christians, so...? Been told it goes against traditional teachings and some have even accused me of blasphemy because of it, so I'm not going into it here, OK...?

And I don't feel like getting kicked off of here today, K...

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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Lol, did you really read what you wrote here? If I use others to bring about evil actions, I'm somehow not to blame for that evil? Total nonsense . Besides, it's a contradiction to say some one freely acts if God is directing thier every action. What you would have is only the illusion of freedom, but in reality, robots.
Do you see all of this as "evil" if the greatest and most highest and best good comes out of it in the end, and it was maybe the only way to bring it about, etc, is it still evil?

Because to still think so, is to call the one who made it, and made it all, including us, and yes, including the way it all would happen and/or go, "evil", etc...

You really want to do that or say that...?

God Bless!
 
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renniks

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Do you see all of this as "evil" if the greatest and most highest and best good comes out of it in the end, and it was maybe the only way to bring it about, etc, is it still evil?

Because to still think so, is to call the one who made it, and made it all, including us, and yes, including the way it all would happen and/or go, "evil", etc...

You really want to do that or say that...?

God Bless!
I think you missed the point. God's not decreeing evil. Your argument only stands in a world where God predetermined all evil, not just knew it would occur. God says some things people did never entered his mind.
 
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bcbsr

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"From all eternity God decreed everything that occurs, without reference to anything outside himself. He did this by the perfectly wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably. Yet God did this in such a way that he is neither the author of sin nor has fellowship with any in their sin. This decree does not violate the will of the creature or take away the free working or contingency of second causes. On the contrary, these are established by God’s decree. In this decree God’s wisdom is displayed in directing all things, and his power and faithfulness are demonstrated in accomplishing his decree."

- Chapter 3, Section 1, Second London Baptist Confession of 1689
Do you agree with this statement? Please provide Scripture to support your answer.
The statement is inherently contradictory and therefore false. Typically what such statements really mean by "the will of the creature" is that which has been programmed by God, all things being deterministic, essentially puppets of God so that nothing is independent of God's determinism, which logically makes God the author of sin in puppet-like fashion. But sin God is holy, therefore the premise is self-contradictory.
 
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Peter J Barban

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It seems that there are already verses given to support this chapter. Why reinvent the wheel?

"1. From all eternity God decreed everything that occurs, without reference to anything outside himself.1 He did this by the perfectly wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably. Yet God did this in such a way that he is neither the author of sin nor has fellowship with any in their sin.2 This decree does not violate the will of the creature or take away the free working or contingency of second causes. On the contrary, these are established by God’s decree.3 In this decree God’s wisdom is displayed in directing all things, and his power and faithfulness are demonstrated in accomplishing his decree.4

1Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18. 2James 1:13; 1 John 1:5. 3Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11. 4Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3–5.



2. God knows everything that could happen under any given conditions.5 However, his decree of anything is not based on foreseeing it in the future or foreseeing that it would occur under such conditions.6

5Acts 15:18. 6Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18.



3. By God’s decree, and for the demonstration of his glory, some human beings and angels are predestined (or foreordained) to eternal life through Jesus Christ,7 to the praise of his glorious grace.8 Others are left to live in their sin, leading to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.9

71 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34. 8Ephesians 1:5, 6. 9Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4.



4. These predestined and foreordained angels and people are individually and unchangeably designated, and their number is so certain and definite that it cannot be either increased or decreased.10

102 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18.



5. Those people who are predestined to life were chosen by God before the foundation of the world, according to his eternal and unchangeable purpose and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will. He chose them in Christ for eternal glory, purely as a result of his free grace and love,11 without anything else about them serving as a condition or cause moving him to do so.12

11Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9. 12Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12.



6. Just as God has appointed the elect to glory, so he has by the eternal and completely free purpose of his will foreordained all the means.13 Therefore, those who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ14 and effectually called to faith in Christ by his Spirit working at the appropriate time. They are justified, adopted, sanctified,15 and kept by his power through faith to salvation.16 No one but the elect are redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved.17

131 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13. 141 Thessalonians 5:9, 10. 15Romans 8:30; 2 Thessalonians 2:13. 161 Peter 1:5. 17John 10:26; 17:9; 6:64.



7. The doctrine of the high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care so that those heeding the will of God revealed in his Word and obeying him may be assured of their eternal election by the certainty of their effectual calling.18 In this way this doctrine will give reasons for praise,19 reverence, and admiration of God, as well as humility,20 diligence and rich comfort to all who sincerely obey the gospel.21

181 Thessalonians 1:4, 5; 2 Peter 1:10. 19Ephesians 1:6; Romans 11:33. 20Romans 11:5, 6, 20. 21Luke 10:20."
 
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Neogaia777

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I think you missed the point. God's not decreeing evil. Your argument only stands in a world where God predetermined all evil, not just knew it would occur. God says some things people did never entered his mind.
If they never even entered His mind, then did He know, or not know, that they would do or commit them (ahead of time) or not...?

Cause if He did not, then He was not (always) all-knowing, cause He did not know, etc...

And beyond that, did not make them "that way" from the beginning, etc...?

Yes or No...? For there is no middle ground here, etc...

Either He knew and made them that way, or He didn't, and if He didn't, He didn't know, etc, and beyond that, may not be the One who made them that way, etc, with full knowledge of them, or it all, and/or making it and/or them all "that way", etc, which would mean there were some things He did not know, etc...

Created them possibly, yes, but with full knowledge or fully knowing how they or it all and/or would go and be, no... And all by Himself and Himself only, no, or probably no, or not very likely, more than likely, etc...

I would tell you how I (though not just "I") (anyway), I would tell you how "this" was "figured out", (reconciled, etc), if I would not get kicked off here for it, so I can't, etc, but it's not beyond your not knowing it or figuring it out or comprehending (it) (out), etc, you just might have to take your blinders off though, and think nuetrally and logically and objectively with those blinders off, etc, and approach things and examine the facts from a totally logical and neutral and completely objective point of view, but that's really all I can say for now...

Anyway,

God Bless!

Oh and, taking another hearing or listening to the words of Jesus might help as well, etc.

Without your blinders on though.

Or your earplugs in, etc.

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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I think you missed the point. God's not decreeing evil. Your argument only stands in a world where God predetermined all evil, not just knew it would occur. God says some things people did never entered his mind.
And what exactly do you mean by "decreeing" anyway...?

And is it equivalent with words like "created" or "creating", or "authoring" or "purposing", etc, again, enough of this play on words Babylonian garbage, OK, what exactly do you mean by "decreeing", etc...?

God Bless!
 
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GingerBeer

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"From all eternity God decreed everything that occurs, without reference to anything outside himself. He did this by the perfectly wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably. Yet God did this in such a way that he is neither the author of sin nor has fellowship with any in their sin. This decree does not violate the will of the creature or take away the free working or contingency of second causes. On the contrary, these are established by God’s decree. In this decree God’s wisdom is displayed in directing all things, and his power and faithfulness are demonstrated in accomplishing his decree."

- Chapter 3, Section 1, Second London Baptist Confession of 1689
Do you agree with this statement? Please provide Scripture to support your answer.
No, I do not agree and I think it is bordering on absurd to ask for scripture to disprove an absurd theory about predestination simply because a Baptist confession contains it.
 
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Aussie Pete

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"From all eternity God decreed everything that occurs, without reference to anything outside himself. He did this by the perfectly wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably. Yet God did this in such a way that he is neither the author of sin nor has fellowship with any in their sin. This decree does not violate the will of the creature or take away the free working or contingency of second causes. On the contrary, these are established by God’s decree. In this decree God’s wisdom is displayed in directing all things, and his power and faithfulness are demonstrated in accomplishing his decree."

- Chapter 3, Section 1, Second London Baptist Confession of 1689
Do you agree with this statement? Please provide Scripture to support your answer.
Agree. God is entirely sovereign and man is entirely responsible. No, I don't know how to reconcile the two.
Job 42:2
1Then Job replied to the LORD: 2“I know that You can do all things and that no plan of Yours can be thwarted.

John 1:13 ....children born not of blood, nor of the desire or will of man, but born of God.
 
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Aussie Pete

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No, and I would have to quote about half the Bible. But it's enough that Jesus told us to pray God's will be done here as it is in heaven. God's will is therefore not always done on this Earth.
This is the tension that exists. God's will shall be done. It requires men to cooperate with God. The first man to do so was Abraham. Others like Moses, Job, David, Elijah - men who walked with God, even though they were flawed. All through history there have been such men. The Apostles, Luther, the Wesley brothers, Watchman Nee and many others. Some are hidden gems so to speak. Few have heard of them yet they are mighty in prayer and in spirit. God works through men and women who are completely consecrated. His will shall indeed be done, albeit with a hiccup or two on the journey.
 
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Neogaia777

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Agree. God is entirely sovereign and man is entirely responsible. No, I don't know how to reconcile the two.
Job 42:2
1Then Job replied to the LORD: 2“I know that You can do all things and that no plan of Yours can be thwarted.

John 1:13 ....children born not of blood, nor of the desire or will of man, but born of God.
If you found out that man is not responsible for himself, or his own choices or will(s) or actions, etc, never has been, etc, or that his true free will was, and is, and has never been ever truly free, etc, how would you respond or react to that information, or what would you choose afterward, to either be, act, say, or do, or become, afterwards, etc, anyway, in light of that information, who would you be or become, or how/what would you choose (to be or become) afterwards, etc...?

Cause it is that specific choice that matters most, and separates the rebellious children of the Devil, from the true children of, or the true sons of the truly True God, etc, that are truly the true sons of the truly True God, etc...?

So, what would you do, be, become, etc, if you found that out, etc...?

Cause, if "anything at all matters most", etc, it is that "choice" that matters "the most", and the utmost, etc...

But, your not really responsible for that choice until you have a real true revelation of it, etc, and of Them (The True Trinity, etc) if that's any consolation to you, etc...

In fact it has been hidden from most of your guys eyes for that very fact or reason, so that it both does not, and cannot happen before it's appointed time, etc, and you should rejoice in that, etc, while you still can, etc...

But, if you'd like a clue, then that clue is in knowing the True Trinity, and the True Truly Triune God, etc, or some might says "God's", etc, except They are One, etc...

God Bless!
 
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Aussie Pete

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If you found out that man is not responsible for himself, or his own choices or will(s) or actions, etc, never has been, etc, or that his true free will was, and is, and has never been ever truly free, etc, how would you respond or react to that information, or what would you choose afterward, to either be, act, say, or do, or become, afterwards, etc, anyway, in light of that information, who would you be or become, or how/what would you choose (to be or become) afterwards, etc...?

Cause it is that specific choice that matters most, and separates the rebellious children of the Devil, from the true children of, or the true sons of the truly True God, etc, that are truly the true sons of the truly True God, etc...?

So, what would you do, be, become, etc, if you found that out, etc...?

Cause, if "anything at all matters most", etc, it is that "choice" that matters "the most", and the utmost, etc...

But, your not really responsible for that choice until you have a real true revelation of it, etc, and of Them (The True Trinity, etc) if that's any consolation to you, etc...

In fact it has been hidden from most of your guys eyes for that very fact or reason, so that it both does not, and cannot happen before it's appointed time, etc, and you should rejoice in that, etc, while you still can, etc...

But, if you'd like a clue, then that clue is in knowing the True Trinity, and the True Truly Triune God, etc, or some might says "God's", etc, except They are One, etc...

God Bless!
A rhetorical question that has no answer. Not that makes sense to me, anyway.
 
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renniks

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If they never even entered His mind, then did He know, or not know, that they would do or commit them (ahead of time) or not...?

Cause if He did not, then He was not (always) all-knowing, cause He did not know, etc...

And beyond that, did not make them "that way" from the beginning, etc...?

Yes or No...? For there is no middle ground here, etc...

Either He knew and made them that way, or He didn't, and if He didn't, He didn't know, etc, and beyond that, may not be the One who made them that way, etc, with full knowledge of them, or it all, and/or making it and/or them all "that way", etc, which would mean there were some things He did not know, etc...

Created them possibly, yes, but with full knowledge or fully knowing how they or it all and/or would go and be, no... And all by Himself and Himself only, no, or probably no, or not very likely, more than likely, etc...

I would tell you how I (though not just "I") (anyway), I would tell you how "this" was "figured out", (reconciled, etc), if I would not get kicked off here for it, so I can't, etc, but it's not beyond your not knowing it or figuring it out or comprehending (it) (out), etc, you just might have to take your blinders off though, and think nuetrally and logically and objectively with those blinders off, etc, and approach things and examine the facts from a totally logical and neutral and completely objective point of view, but that's really all I can say for now...

Anyway,

God Bless!

Oh and, taking another hearing or listening to the words of Jesus might help as well, etc.

Without your blinders on though.

Or your earplugs in, etc.

God Bless!
Never entered his mind doesn't mean to me that he didn't know it would happen but that it didn't come from him in any way, sense or form.
 
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renniks

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This is the tension that exists. God's will shall be done. It requires men to cooperate with God. The first man to do so was Abraham. Others like Moses, Job, David, Elijah - men who walked with God, even though they were flawed. All through history there have been such men. The Apostles, Luther, the Wesley brothers, Watchman Nee and many others. Some are hidden gems so to speak. Few have heard of them yet they are mighty in prayer and in spirit. God works through men and women who are completely consecrated. His will shall indeed be done, albeit with a hiccup or two on the journey.
If there is one "hiccup" there are billions upon billions, like ripples that never stop spreading. Sovereignty and control are two very different things, but people tend to think they are the same for some strange reason. God blows that out of the water when he claims to hold out his hands to a disobedient people who would not respond.
 
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Aussie Pete

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If there is one "hiccup" there are billions upon billions, like ripples that never stop spreading. Sovereignty and control are two very different things, but people tend to think they are the same for some strange reason. God blows that out of the water when he claims to hold out his hands to a disobedient people who would not respond.
In God's economy, there are no hiccups. He will have his way, whatever that is. There are a lot of mysteries still to be revealed. The church will be cleansed totally and there will be no history of sin. My own life before I was born again is a series of wonders. Even the fact that I lived to 20 years old is amazing. I did not know God. He sure knew me.
 
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renniks

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In God's economy, there are no hiccups. He will have his way, whatever that is. There are a lot of mysteries still to be revealed. The church will be cleansed totally and there will be no history of sin. My own life before I was born again is a series of wonders. Even the fact that I lived to 20 years old is amazing. I did not know God. He sure knew me.
Yes, God does miracles. Yes, he turns bad into good. But yes, men go against his will daily. This is a battleground. His will isn't done here as it is in heaven, yet.
 
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