Godfire - a Word Study

[Saint Steven]

Remember when I told you the Pentecostals hi-jacked the name "baptism with the Holy Spirit."

Do you remember that conversation?

That spurious claim rings a bell, yes.
Go on... please continue.

 

[Charlie24]

I didn't know you understood that. Kudos.
Now you should seek it.

If the Lord wants me to have it, if it's still in operation, I will receive without begging for it.

 

[Charlie24]

That spurious claim rings a bell, yes.
Go on... please continue.

Show me "baptism in the Holy Spirit" in scripture.

Theologians referred to our salvation experience as "baptism of the Holy Spirit" centuries before the Pentecostals stole it for there use.

 

[Saint Steven]

If the Lord wants me to have it, if it's still in operation, I will receive without begging for it.

That's not true.
No one gets the baptism with that attitude. You are in essence daring God to pour out his Spirit on you. He most likely won't respond to that. If you actually believed in it, you would seek it. Since you don't believe in it, you leave it up to him. (take it or leave it attitude)

 

[Saint Steven]

Show me "baptism in the Holy Spirit" in scripture.

Theologians referred to our salvation experience as "baptism of the Holy Spirit" centuries before the Pentecostals stole it for there use.

Why do you put theologians above the Apostles?

Are you trying to disprove the Baptism with the Holy Spirit by claiming that the EXACT term is not in the Bible?

Do you believe in the Trinity? (show me)

 

[Charlie24]

Why do you put theologians above the Apostles?

Are you trying to disprove the Baptism with the Holy Spirit by claiming that the EXACT term is not in the Bible?

Do you believe in the Trinity? (show me)

If you don't understand what I'm saying, you never will. I can't explain it any clearer.

 

[Saint Steven]

If you don't understand what I'm saying, you never will. I can't explain it any clearer.

1) You haven't "explained" anything.
2) I understand what you believe perfectly well. I was raised Evangelical.

I left Evangelicalism because it was empty and meaningless, sterile and dead.
Having a form of godliness, but denying its power.

 

[Saint Steven]

If you don't understand what I'm saying, you never will. I can't explain it any clearer.

If you were more interested in understanding where we are coming from instead of working to "correct" us, you might actually learn something.

Philippians 2:3-4
Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, 4 not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.

 

[Charlie24]

If you were more interested in understanding where we are coming from instead of working to "correct" us, you might actually learn something.

Philippians 2:3-4
Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, 4 not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.

Phil. 2:3-4 is correct provided sound doctrine is present, otherwise...

 

[Saint Steven]

Phil. 2:3-4 is correct provided sound doctrine is present, otherwise...

It has NOTHING to do with doctrine. The interests of others could be anything.
You are justifying selfish ambition and vain conceit on the basis of doctrine.
What could be more selfish or conceited?

Philippians 2:3-4
Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, 4 not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.

 

[Saint Steven]

Phil. 2:3-4 is correct provided sound doctrine is present, otherwise...

Who decides what doctrine is "sound" doctrine?

 

[Charlie24]

It has NOTHING to do with doctrine. The interests of others could be anything.
You are justifying selfish ambition and vain conceit on the basis of doctrine.
What could be more selfish or conceited?

Philippians 2:3-4
Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, 4 not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.

The scripture you have presented and for the purpose you have used it is called "cherry picking." I'll tell you why. The full context must be taken to understand any given scripture.

If you back up one verse to vs 2.
Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.

This is the condition on which vs. 3-4 are founded.

Paul is speaking of one mind, one accord in the faith.

If that faith is not one mind, one accord, with another, vs 3-4 are impossible to meet.

 

[Hillsage]

Jesus saves; body, soul and spirit. (that could work)

How about Jesus saves your justified spirit. The Holy Spirit saves your sanctified soul. And God the father gives you a saved glorified body. Three makes one God which saves three makes one human?

 

[Saint Steven]

The scripture you have presented and for the purpose you have used it is called "cherry picking." I'll tell you why. The full context must be taken to understand any given scripture.

If you back up one verse to vs 2.
Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.

This is the condition on which vs. 3-4 are founded.

Paul is speaking of one mind, one accord in the faith.

If that faith is not one mind, one accord, with another, vs 3-4 are impossible to meet.

I hope we are not counting on you for "sound" doctrine.

What you call "cherry picking" is just another lame argument like the "context" argument.

And your claim that this has anything to do with doctrine is ridiculous.
Again, you are justifying selfish ambition and vain conceit in the guise of "sound" doctrine. I hope we are not counting on you for "sound" doctrine.

Philippians 2:1-4
Therefore if you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any common sharing in the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2 then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and of one mind. 3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, 4 not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.

 

[Saint Steven]

How about Jesus saves your justified spirit. The Holy Spirit saves your sanctified soul. And God the father gives you a saved glorified body. Three makes one God which saves three makes one human?

I guess wordsmith isn't a spiritual gift. - lol

Jesus saves; body, soul and spirit.
Which means: a new body when we get to heaven, a renewed mind in the here and now, and the indwelling Spirit as a guarantee.

 

[Charlie24]

I hope we are not counting on you for "sound" doctrine.

What you call "cherry picking" is just another lame argument like the "context" argument.

And your claim that this has anything to do with doctrine is ridiculous.
Again, you are justifying selfish ambition and vain conceit in the guise of "sound" doctrine. I hope we are not counting on you for "sound" doctrine.

Philippians 2:1-4
Therefore if you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any common sharing in the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2 then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and of one mind. 3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, 4 not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.

What causes one to empty himself of "self" and care for his neighbor in oneness.

It's faith in Christ, this is Paul's point. Sound doctrine in Christ is the only way.

 

[Hillsage]

I guess wordsmith isn't a spiritual gift. - lol

Nope, it’s just an intellectual soulish talent.

Jesus saves; body, soul and spirit.
Which means: a new body when we get to heaven, a renewed mind in the here and now, and the indwelling Spirit as a guarantee.

I am content to press on as I believe. Because it just works better ‘for me’.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

These are some points worth discussing. I'm still trying to sort through this myself.

The Calvinists claim that a free will decision to follow Christ is salvation by works. As if receiving the gift of salvation is somehow a work that "earns" salvation. Which seems to align with what you are saying here. Just to be clear, I absolutely deplore Calvinism. Not a huge fan of Arminianism either.

What is the "good" news of the gospel if there is no personal benefit in receiving it. It seems that if you remove the "self-interest", it becomes only news, not "good" news.

As if to say, "Jesus paid the price of your sin debt, just wanted you to know that." --- "Okay, thanks. Should we go to the store?"

It seems that in order to receive the benefit (self-interest) of the gospel message, one needs to do more than just hear about it. We need to act upon it. However, that act is one of receiving, not a work done to earn it. If someone hands us a wrapped gift, we must do the "work" of unwrapping it in order to receive it. But that "work" did not earn the gift, nor does it change the nature of the gift.

It seems that in receiving the gift of salvation, there is something to gain and something we avoid. Namely, the consequence of not receiving the gift. The traditional creed calls it hell, and claims it is everlasting separation from God. Are we in the greater hope doing anything more than repackaging the consequences, or merely redefining them?

I don't see how we can steer around this. I'll open this up to the whole group, even Charlie. @FineLinen @Hillsage @Lazarus Short and @Charlie24

The gospel relieves spiritual burdens. Even the Calvinist doesn't totally miss with his 'Jesus paid your fine' routine. So how free are you when those dark clouds of guilt and shame, depression and doubt are removed by the Spirit, when God shows you your failings have not diminished His fatherly love for you. Free indeed, knowing God's amazing grace and mercy. What a relief, He's real and He's not a **#@.

It's a compelling argument, in fact overwhelmingly so. Can the clay resist the potter? No, we confess and believe, cause we've had a change of heart and mind. Not out of compulsion, but in submission to the absolute truth.

So all we contribute at that point is to get knocked down with a divine feather! Then...we rush out keen to prove ourselves and fall into the toxic doctrine trap like our rich friend Charlie and so many others have. But that's a story for another day lol.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

SM, I am afraid you are much confused about our Father's salvation.

The apostle Paul tells us that salvation is a matter of the heart.

Rom. 10:9-10
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

The apostle John tells us love casts out fear.

1John 4:18
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

When our heart believes unto righteousness, as Paul says, fear is cast out in love, as John says.

At salvation the heart is so filled with the love for God, there is no fear, there can be no fear. The fear only exists without God, or when we have lost sight of God.

I'll just never understand how a God who condemns ppl to eternal conscious torment can ever be lovable. It's beyond twisted dude. It's spiritual terrorism, however you spin it.

 

[Saint Steven]

What causes one to empty himself of "self" and care for his neighbor in oneness.

It's faith in Christ, this is Paul's point. Sound doctrine in Christ is the only way.

I'm amazed that you would defend selfish ambition and vain conceit as if they were a fruit of the Spirit when a difference of opinion over doctrine is present. As if that is somehow license for selfishness or conceit. Time for some introspection.

Philippians 2:1-4
Therefore if you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any common sharing in the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2 then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and of one mind. 3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, 4 not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.