Godfire - a Word Study

[Saint Steven]

The gospel relieves spiritual burdens. Even the Calvinist doesn't totally miss with his 'Jesus paid your fine' routine. ...

That is in reference to the atonement. How does that play (or not play) into the gospel message in your view?

 

[Charlie24]

I'll just never understand how a God who condemns ppl to eternal conscious torment can ever be lovable. It's

I'm amazed that you would defend selfish ambition and vain conceit as if they were a fruit of the Spirit when a difference of opinion over doctrine is present. As if that is somehow license for selfish or conceit. Time for some introspection.

Philippians 2:1-4
Therefore if you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any common sharing in the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2 then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and of one mind. 3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, 4 not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.

This is not just a difference in doctrine!

This is a rebellion against God's judgement. It's judgement against God in not accepting His righteous judgement. Going so far as to change His word from it's original meaning.

 

[Charlie24]

This is not just a difference in doctrine!

This is a rebellion against God's judgement. It's judgement against God in not accepting His righteous judgement. Going so far as to change His word from it's original meaning.

 

[Saint Steven]

The gospel relieves spiritual burdens. Even the Calvinist doesn't totally miss with his 'Jesus paid your fine' routine. So how free are you when those dark clouds of guilt and shame, depression and doubt are removed by the Spirit, when God shows you your failings have not diminished His fatherly love for you. Free indeed, knowing God's amazing grace and mercy. What a relief, He's real and He's not a **#@.

It's a compelling argument, in fact overwhelmingly so. Can the clay resist the potter? No, we confess and believe, cause we've had a change of heart and mind. Not out of compulsion, but in submission to the absolute truth.

So all we contribute at that point is to get knocked down with a divine feather! Then...we rush out keen to prove ourselves and fall into the toxic doctrine trap like our rich friend Charlie and so many others have. But that's a story for another day lol.

There's something to that.

Essentially the gospel is about restoring a relationship that was broken by our original ancestors, A&E. For some reason restitution needs to be paid, but we are incapable of paying it ourselves. That's where Jesus comes in. He has paid the restitution for us in full. And not just paid for those who would receive it, but paid for everyone. The one righteous act that undoes the fall. (original loss of relationship through sin) It's as if everyone has a claim slip for salvation, but you need to redeem the slip to receive the goods. And you can leave your burden there.

Does that aspect fit in your view? How do you see it?

 

[Saint Steven]

This is not just a difference in doctrine!

This is a rebellion against God's judgement. It's judgement against God in not accepting His righteous judgement. Going so far as to change His word from it's original meaning.

That's a deflection, but let's roll with it. (you had better learn how to admit when you are wrong before you get married - that's 40+ years of marriage advising you)

The Damnationists changed the Bible translation from its original meaning. The Latin church had both a doctrinal agenda and poor skills with NT Greek employed in the translation work. We are working to correct this issue, you are working to continue the cover-up. (HellGate)

Back to the original discussion. You have no grounds for shunning us.

Philippians 2:1-4
Therefore if you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any common sharing in the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2 then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and of one mind. 3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, 4 not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.

 

[Charlie24]

That's a deflection, but let's roll with it. (you had better learn how to admit when you are wrong before you get married - that's 40+ years of marriage advising you)

The Damnationists changed the Bible translation from its original meaning. The Latin church had both a doctrinal agenda and poor skills with NT Greek employed in the translation work. We are working to correct this issue, you are working to continue the cover-up. (HellGate)

Back to the original discussion. You have no grounds for shunning us.

Philippians 2:1-4
Therefore if you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any common sharing in the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2 then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and of one mind. 3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, 4 not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.

Oh yes I do! I choose God over rebellion against Him.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

We're having too much fun rubbing salt into the wounds.

But I don't see Jesus as teaching that to 'have peace' in any way limits the degree or intensity of eg constructive criticism represented by the 'salted with fire' metaphor. He's just saying at the end of the day, make your peace. He persists on this theme throughout the Gospels, which is essentially don't leave things to fester and turn into grudges and bad blood.

So it's apply good relationship management practice now or God will need to fix it later in Gehenna - and that will go harder on us.

Oh totally, this seems to be words accountability oriented denominations use, but don't apply to themselves.

It's kind of like a mode of constant shifting responsibility to others so they have no time to remind you of your own responsibility.

This is what the above post reminds me of, especially the last bit there of hell threat and such.

 

[Saint Steven]

I'll just never understand how a God who condemns ppl to eternal conscious torment can ever be lovable. It's beyond twisted dude. It's spiritual terrorism, however you spin it.

I was thinking about this very thing yesterday.

It's as if you had a friend that was the most wonderful loving person imaginable. He would give you the coat off his back if he knew you were cold. He would give until it hurt himself personally, just to help you. And not only for his friends, but for total strangers and even known enemies.

Then suddenly you began to hear rumors. Claims that your friend was actually kidnapping his enemies and torturing them in his basement. So you went to his home to talk to him, hoping to encourage him while these false accusations were being made.

When you arrived at his home there was a yellow Police Line tape barring admission to the house. News reporters were outside covering the story. They stuck a microphone in your face and you defended your friend, saying there was no possible way that these accusations were true.

The TV news reported on the incident. They used your interview to make you look like a fool. The news paper the next day covered the story and continued to support the lies. It was the same old agenda bias. They had been looking for a way to discredit your friend for years.

You finally got a chance to visit your friend at the jail. He confirmed that it was indeed a set-up to cast him in the worst possible light. They had witnesses that had given false testimony against him and this was going to trial. All he asked of you was that truth be told. He could not be both a loving person and the monster they claimed he was. It was one or the other. Choose carefully.

 

[Saint Steven]

Oh yes I do! I choose God over rebellion against Him.

You are claiming to have grounds for shunning us? Unbelievable. Get a grip, man.

There are three common doctrinal views of the final judgment.
How can you claim we are in rebellion against God for our choice of which doctrine?
This is the kind of thinking that divides people and starts wars.
More selfish ambition and vain conceit.

 

[Charlie24]

You are claiming to have grounds for shunning us? Unbelievable. Get a grip, man.

There are three common doctrinal views of the final judgment.
How can you claim we are in rebellion against God for our choice of which doctrine?
This is the kind of thinking that divides people and starts wars.
More selfish ambition and vain conceit.

I call you out for rebellion against God. Call it what you like.

Heb. 3:11
So I declared on oath in my anger, 'They shall never enter my rest.'"

You are rebelling against God's judgement. Not a good place to be!

 

[Shrewd Manager]

There's something to that.

Essentially the gospel is about restoring a relationship that was broken by our original ancestors, A&E. For some reason restitution needs to be paid, but we are incapable of paying it ourselves. That's where Jesus comes in. He has paid the restitution for us in full. And not just paid for those who would receive it, but paid for everyone. The one righteous act that undoes the fall. (original loss of relationship through sin) It's as if everyone has a claim slip for salvation, but you need to redeem the slip to receive the goods. And you can leave your burden there.

Does that aspect fit in your view? How do you see it?

Seems to me that's how God in Christ reconciles the world to Him - by revealing there was never any sin debt. That's why i reject penal substitution and endorse medical representative atonement. Jesus repairs the sins of Israel by doing them over, doing them right. Just look at how he comes out of Egypt and up from the Jordan to overcome the devil in the wilderness and then fulfill the Torah on the mountain. Recognise the pattern?

So God's saying you don't need to carry those failures, Jesus will bear all those past burdens and correct them. Done! Now isn't that a relief to know I was never the harsh magistrate but always the loving father, and my love won't quit.

That I suggest does more justice to the gospel truth than some meaningless accounting formula. It's alive and dynamic, rather than dead and static.

So can the spirit work through the gospel without a living atonement message?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

This is not just a difference in doctrine!

This is a rebellion against God's judgement. It's judgement against God in not accepting His righteous judgement. Going so far as to change His word from it's original meaning.

You're painting yourself into a corner Charlie. Infinite punishment for finite crimes is infinitely unrighteous judgment.

Jesus distinguishes between righteous and unrighteous judgment. The former is corrective, restorative, constructive - he is our carpenter king after all. That's the good one, rather than the condemnatory retributive callous variety. Go read the book of Judges, that’s what judges were in the Hebrew tradition. You've gotten conditioned by the Roman pagan law tradition unfortunately.

 

[Saint Steven]

I call you out for rebellion against God. Call it what you like.

Heb. 3:11
So I declared on oath in my anger, 'They shall never enter my rest.'"

You are rebelling against God's judgement. Not a good place to be!

Wow. And you claim WE are pulling scripture "out of context"? !!!!

Who is the "they" in your quoted verse? And what is meant by "my rest"?
But how are you misusing it?

Clue: This is about the Israelites and the promised land.
And YOU claim this is grounds for shunning us? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What were saying earlier about "sound" doctrine?

 

[Charlie24]

You're painting yourself into a corner Charlie. Infinite punishment for finite crimes is infinitely unrighteous judgment.

Jesus distinguishes between righteous and unrighteous judgment. The former is corrective, restorative, constructive - he is our carpenter king after all. That's the good one, rather than the condemnatory retributive callous variety. Go read the book of Judges, that’s what judges were in the Hebrew tradition. You've gotten conditioned by the Roman pagan law tradition unfortunately.

If I'm painting myself into a corner, it is God's corner.

Not the corner of rebellion!

 

[Saint Steven]

So can the spirit work through the gospel without a living atonement message?

Are you familiar with the origins of the term "scapegoat"?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I was thinking about this very thing yesterday.

It's as if you had a friend that was the most wonderful loving person imaginable. He would give you the coat off his back if he knew you were cold. He would give until it hurt himself personally, just to help you. And not only for his friends, but for total strangers and even known enemies.

Then suddenly you began to hear rumors. Claims that your friend was actually kidnapping his enemies and torturing them in his basement. So you went to his home to talk to him, hoping to encourage him while these false accusations were being made.

When you arrived at his home there was a yellow Police Line tape barring admission to the house. News reporters were outside covering the story. They stuck a microphone in your face and you defended your friend, saying there was no possible way that these accusations were true.

The TV news reported on the incident. They used your interview to make you look like a fool. The news paper the next day covered the story and continued to support the lies. It was the same old agenda bias. They had been looking for a way to discredit your friend for years.

You finally got a chance to visit your friend at the jail. He confirmed that it was indeed a set-up to cast him in the worst possible light. They had witnesses that had given false testimony against him and this was going to trial. All he asked of you was that truth be told. He could not be both a loving person and the monster they claimed he was. It was one or the other. Choose carefully.

That would make a fine basis for a short film imho Steve.

 

[Charlie24]

Wow. And you claim WE are pulling scripture "out of context"? !!!!

Who is the "they" in your quoted verse? And what is meant by "my rest"?
But how are you misusing it?

Clue: This is about the Israelites and the promised land.
And YOU claim this is grounds for shunning us? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What were saying earlier about "sound" doctrine?

I grow weary of explaining things you should already know!

The promised land God speaks of in not only literal, it is the spiritual promised land also.

Those who reject God and His ways will not find it.

Again, if you do not understand "His rest" I can only pray for you.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Are you familiar with the origins of the term "scapegoat"?

Sure, that's a very pale shadow or type of Christ. The Calvinists like that one, no? Or you think there's more to it?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

If I'm painting myself into a corner, it is God's corner.

Not the corner of rebellion!

Well then explain how infinite punishment for finite crime is condign or just, pahlease?

 

[Saint Steven]

That would make a fine basis for a short film imho Steve.

Yes. I could see that.

The bigger point is that the Damnationists are like neighbors that claim God is torturing his enemies in his basement. But defend it as just being part of his nature. And will claim that anyone who doesn't believe these false accusations is in rebellion against him. Because he has the right to do whatever he wants. Just crazy.