God loving evolutionist

[worship4ever]

Please, this is only for the people that believe in God, in turn the people that believe that God created but still think evolution is the means at which God made humans.
I realize that many people believe in God but also believe in Evolution. This is odd to me because i believe the Word of God as His words to His people. It being kinda like an ower's manual for life. I've wondered before why people dont believe in God in the first chapter's in Genesis literally. To me, i read that "God created the heaven's and the earth" and after a couple days made "Man" and "Women" for a purpose. God made everything on earth in days. You can choose for yourself the interperation of "YOM" in Hebrew as a literal 24 hr time period or as meaning, "back in the day i walked my dog", meaning a time refenence. The people that believe in God must also believe that God created Man. Yet still, many believe in evolution as a means in which God created Man. Evolution bases there theology on random mutations, God is not random. Evolutionist say that evolution is not random because of Natural Selection, yet Nature has no plan, no purpose, nature is nature. The laws of nature are the same yesterday, today, and forever (sounds familiar huh). Random forces could not have produced a world of living things, and yet scientist agree on this. Evolution has no purpose, no goal to achieve, yet God always has a purpose and always has a goal. Natural Selection is the way for evolutionist to claim that evolution isnt random, well fine, yet it is still nature controlling the survival of the species, but nature has no purpose, nature is nature, period.

I'd love to know at what point did God decide that a human was a human? At what 'mutation' did God finally say "there, my work is complete." If you believe in evolution and in God you must agree that there was a point in time that God finally made a decision that His work was complete. Think of it this way. You have a mound of sand, take away one grain of sand, is it still a mound, well, of course. Take away sand until theres only one grain of sand yet, is it still a mound, no. Well at what point did that mound of sand stop from being a mound of sand, one grain of sand, two gain of sand, perhaps three, you'll never know.

God created the heavens and the earth. God created humans with a purpose. Would God start that simple cell and let nature control His work til its done? Thats not the charcter of God, He is in full control. Did God spark everything into exsistance and let everything just work itself out to ultimately create humans thur evolution, no. It's like baking a cake. God put all the ingrentents together and in 4.5 billion years, man is out of the oven, no. Did God sit on His hands for 4.5 billion years waiting for humans to finish 'cooking', no. Did God say, "Yes, this is the random mutation that is going to finish my work, no. God created Man on the last day, after the plants were formed, after the atmosphere was in place, after the animals of there kind were created. All these things must be in place FIRST in order for man to exsist on earth.

To God, a thousand years is like a day and a day is like a thousand years, that still never equals to the VAST about of different creatures we have on earth in such a short period of time.

The belief of people that believe in both God and evolution believes that Nature controlled God's will. Nature did all the work, God just gave it some instructions first. Your giving the glory of humans to random mutation, to nature, that sounds more like pagen religions who believed Nature created all, remember those religions long long ago, this is no different. Your not giving God all the glory when you accept that Nature was in control of God's plan. Giving the glory to nature is a dangerous game to play. God created the laws of nature, but to say He let nature do His dirty work is abserb. In no way is evolution the charcter of God, how do we know the charcter of God, the bible, prayer, ect. You say you believe in God but also in evolution, well, if you know the charcter of God, you know that God and evolution will never see eye to eye.

And remember, please, the people that believe in God and in evolution only respond. I only want to hear their side and their opinions, k.

 

[Jet Black]

you should put this in the christians only forum then.

 

[David Gould]

If you only want to hear the opinions of Christians you should post in the Christian-only part of the forums.

Are you willing to accept the answers of former Christians who when they were Christians believed evolution was God's method of creation?

 

[Arikay]

1) I agree with the others, however most of the Evolutionist christians that visit there, visit here too.

2) Do you believe the earth is flat? If you dont, then you dont take the bible "literally" but interpret it.

3) Many believe that the "one day is 1000 years to god and 1000 years is like one day" just means that time is meaningless to god, and the figures were just symbolic. (I could pull up the comentary I found on blueletterbible if you like).

4) Its a good thing that Evolution and the bible can fit together. Otherwise it seems like a Great conversion tool for atheists who want to convert christians.

 

[Meatros]

The problem with your statement is that you are arguing for atheism. It seems you are afraid that if you accepted evolution, then you could no longer have faith in a Christian God. The majority of Christians have already overcome this sticking point and accept evolution, an old earth, etc. Why don't you come and join us?

When you look at the evidence closely, you'll realize that science isn't wrong about an old earth or evolution and that your appeal to fear holds no water.

If, to you, being a Christian means denying science/evolution/an old earth in hopes that one day the evidence will be proven wrong, you are going to be deceiving yourself (IMO).

Being a Christian does not mean dogmatically holding onto improper (and at times impossible) that smack in the face of scientific evidence (aside of course from the ultimate faith aspect ).

 

[notto]

worship4ever,

God's creation shows us an awful lot about how he created. We can study nature and learn about it. Evolution is a theory that came from the study of nature by a man who fully believed it was God's doing. This study of God's nature by Christians has also told us a lot about how old the earth really is, our planets relationship in the universe in reality, etc.

When nature is looked at and we learn about how it operates, we can see that it does not match up with what some people interpret the bible as saying. This does not mean that the bible is wrong, only that the intepretation of the bible is wrong. I think you would agree that the bible can be interpreted incorrectly.

Theistic evolutionists accept that we can study nature and learn the truth about God's creation. We trust that God did not deceive us with the evidence in this creation therefore we must look at our interpretation of the bible and see why it does not match up with what we see in nature.

Your statements in your opening post lay out your beliefs and your intepretations of the bible. Mine differ and I don't agree with your statements about the nature of God and the supposed dangers you see in accepting evolution. Who is to say who is correct in these matters.

I don't see evolution as random because it obviously is not. It is a mechanism that has created the great diversity, the incredible stubornness of life to survive, and the natural beauty we see in nature. To me, this does not conflict with the nature of God. Nature IS God's will, after all, he created it from his will.

These are my beliefs and thoughts on the nature of God. I have no problem reconciling them with evolution as a tool and using the bible as a spiritual guide and theological statement of the nature of God instead of a science book.

 

[JohnR7]

The belief of people that believe in both God and evolution believes that Nature controlled God's will. Nature did all the work, God just gave it some instructions first.

It is as if people want to worship and serve creation, rather than the Creator. It is as if God is not a part of their life. So they just can not see Him as a direct part of creation. Very much like in the book of Romans.

Romans 1:21-23
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. [22] Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, [23] And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

It is as if people want to worship and serve creation, rather than the Creator. It is as if God is not a part of their life. So they just can not see Him as a direct part of creation. Very much like in the book of Romans.

Really. That's quite an accusation to level against fellow Christains don't you think?

Where has any theistic evolutionist on this board said that:

(a) they worship creation, not the creator
(b) God is not part of their life
(c) They do not see Him as a direct part of creation?

The answer is, of course, nowhere.

I do not worship creation. I worship God, and Him alone. I spend a large proportion of my time wrestling with the presence of God in my life. And finally, I see Him as intricately involved with the creation and sustaining of the universe.

The problem with creationism seems to be that wherever God is, it doesn't like to see a scientific explanation as well. This is known as "God of the Gaps" and is a fallacy for very good reasons.

So. Any chance of you taking back your lies about theistic evolutionists, or do you prefer to honour the ninth commandment in the breach rather than in the observance?

 

[notto]

It is as if people want to worship and serve creation, rather than the Creator. It is as if God is not a part of their life. So they just can not see Him as a direct part of creation. Very much like in the book of Romans.

Romans 1:21-23
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. [22] Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, [23] And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

It's rather interesting that you left out Romans 1:20. I think that Romans 1:20 would indicate that if we don't look to creation to see the will, testament, and glory of God, that then we are indeed fools.

Romans 1:20-23
20 Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse; 21 for although they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man or birds or animals or reptiles.

Your claim that theistic evolutionists worship creation is without merit. We examine creation to learn about the creator. We worship the creator.

I guess that by your standards, those that hold to the YEC model of creation worship the Bible instead of God because that is where they find their evidence for how God created, ignoring the creation, they become fools.

Edited to Add:
Theistic evolution clearly contradicts what the verses in Romans discuss. Theistic evolutions do not look at nature and not see God. The look to nature and are awstruck by God's creation.

John, if a theistic evolutionist believes that God created and accepts evolution as the how of that creation, how does Romans 1 apply? They are not exchanging the glory of God for images resembling mortal man or birds, clearly, their beliefs directly conflict with this.

 

[lucaspa]

I've wondered before why people dont believe in God in the first chapter's in Genesis literally.

1. Because it contradicts a literal reading of Genesis 2 where God created the heavens and the earth in ONE day, not 6.

2. Because in Genesis 1 God creates men and women together. "made "Man" and "Women" for a purpose" Genesis 2 has one man first and then one woman.

There are other reasons in the text not to take Genesis 1 literally. Once you stop doing that, your problems are solved.

The people that believe in God must also believe that God created Man. Yet still, many believe in evolution as a means in which God created Man. Evolution bases there theology on random mutations, God is not random.

And God can't create a species to converse with Him by evolution? Why not?

What you are saying is that God meant to have a creature with OUR EXACT PHYSICAL FORM! But why? What does God care about a specific physical form? After all, God doesn't have a specific physical form, does He?

Also, remember that natural selection has TWO parts. Mutations are random WITH RESPECT TO THE NEEDS OF THE INDIVIDUAL OR THE POPULATION. But that doesn't mean "random" in the way you are using it. But selection -- the second part -- is not random at all. So your objection is based on a misunderstanding of natural selection.

yet Nature has no plan, no purpose, nature is nature.

Ah, the atheist argument! Why do you think nature excludeds God? That is what you are saying here. Nature is nature and therefore is not connected to God. You believe God has a plan and purpose, and since nature is created by God, then doesn't it follow that nature also has a plan? Or are you saying God didn't really create?

Random forces could not have produced a world of living things, and yet scientist agree on this.

You've just told us in the sentence before this one that the laws of physics and chemistry are not random.

Evolution has no purpose, no goal to achieve, yet God always has a purpose and always has a goal.

Worship4ever, this is the third time I've told you that this is NOT an accurate statement about evolution. Science does not know whether evolution is without a purpose or goal. Theistic evolutionists -- those who believe in God and accept evolution -- reject that evolution has no goal. As you say, God has a purpose. That purpose can be achieved thru evolution just as well as thru direct manufacture of organisms.

I'd love to know at what point did God decide that a human was a human?

So did Darwin and a lot of people since. At what point in evolution did God decide to infuse a soul into a hominid? Of course, at what point in embryonic development does God decide to infuse a soul into an embryo? No one knows. But that doesn't bother anyone.

At what 'mutation' did God finally say "there, my work is complete." If you believe in evolution and in God you must agree that there was a point in time that God finally made a decision that His work was complete.

We don't have to agree on this. Instead of a "complete creation" we have creatio continua or continuous creation where God never stopped His creative process. Of course, that is what Christians believe about God and human history: God never has stopped His creative activity in human history. He didn't resurrect Jesus and then just head for the bar and forget about humans, did He?

God created the heavens and the earth. God created humans with a purpose.

These are the theological statements. Nothing in them to contradict evolution. The processes discovered by science are HOW God created the heavens and the earth and humans.

Would God start that simple cell and let nature control His work til its done?

Here you are back to atheism again. Why do you say you are Christian when you keep promoting atheism? Since when is nature separate from God and since when is God absent from nature?

Thats not the charcter of God, He is in full control. Did God spark everything into exsistance and let everything just work itself out to ultimately create humans thur evolution, no.

Again you are being atheistic. And a bit of deistic. But the point is that you think "nature" happens without God. That is the basic statement of faith of atheism. Why do you believe it? Why do you deny everything the Bible tells you about God and His immanence in the world and think God is absent from nature?

The belief of people that believe in both God and evolution believes that Nature controlled God's will. Nature did all the work, God just gave it some instructions first.

That's YOUR belief ABOUT theistic evolutionists. It's not what theistic evolutionists believe.

Your giving the glory of humans to random mutation, to nature,

That's what you think is happening, but that's because you are atheist. You think nature happens without God.

I can't help that you are an atheist at heart. Hopefully you can really understand about God and get rid of your atheism.

What you are doing is giving all the glory to a man-made interpretation of Genesis. Not glory to God, but to a false idol of Biblical literalism.

I hope you can come thru this crisis of faith, turn aside from worship of false idols and atheism, but since you won't listen to anyone trying to help you, I have my doubts. I hate to see a lost sheep, but some sheep stay lost because of their own pride so that they won't come back. I'm afraid that this is where you might be. All I can do is keep you from leading others astray. Good luck to you.

 

[sfs]

Again you are being atheistic. And a bit of deistic. But the point is that you think "nature" happens without God. That is the basic statement of faith of atheism. Why do you believe it? Why do you deny everything the Bible tells you about God and His immanence in the world and think God is absent from nature?

Exactly. This view of the world, that it basically runs itself without God's help most of the time and that God has to perform a miracle if he wants to get anything done, seems to be pretty common among creationists. It doesn't have much to do with traditional Christian beliefs about God and nature. (Although it does seem a little similar to the belief you sometimes see reflected in the Old Testament, that Yahweh is one god among many.) Christianity has generally seen nature to be wholly dependent on God at all times.

 

[JohnR7]

So. Any chance of you taking back your lies about theistic evolutionists, or do you prefer to honour the ninth commandment in the breach rather than in the observance?

Did you know that ALL LIERS will be thrown into the Lake of Fire?

Rev. 21:8
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

So, it your are saying I am a liar, then you are saying I am not saved. Do you think you have the right to judge me to determine if I am a christian or not according to scripture?

1 Cor. 4:5
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one's praise will come from God.

 

[wblastyn]

Did you know that ALL LIERS will be thrown into the Lake of Fire?

Rev. 21:8
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

So, it your are saying I am a liar, then you are saying I am not saved. Do you think you have the right to judge me to determine if I am a christian or not according to scripture?

1 Cor. 4:5
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one's praise will come from God.

I think the point is you are saying theistic evolutionists are not good Christians, then you go and do something anti-Christian, like tell lies.

 

[Jet Black]

Did you know that ALL LIERS will be thrown into the Lake of Fire?

what was this Jesus dude for again? remind me....

and sorcerers... is there really such thing?

 

[ifriit]

Wow, that is the most twisted use of scripture in self-defense that I have ever seen. It doesn't matter whether John lies or not; what matters is that Karl is judging him in saying that he lies, and he's not supposed to.

Meanwhile, the whole issue of whether John is actually lying just slips to the wayside...

 

[JohnR7]

John, if a theistic evolutionist believes that God created and accepts evolution as the how of that creation, how does Romans 1 apply? They are not exchanging the glory of God for images resembling mortal man or birds, clearly, their beliefs directly conflict with this.

I do not mean to skip over your question here, but I would like to get to the heart of the matter. You can not mix truth with error, because as soon as you do, God is no longer a part of it. It all becomes a man made effort. That does not mean there is not truth in it, it just means that God is no longer a part of it.

If I look at evolution I see there is truth in there, but also a lot of error, to much error for me to endorse it or to be a part of it. Perhaps for you, the error is something that will be corrected in time and it is not something that will keep you from being a part of it.

If your a Christian and I am a Christian, then the Bible says at some point in time all in Heaven and Earth will be gathered together as one in Christ. We will be in one mind and one accord, but it will not be the mind of a man, or man's thinking. It will be the mind of Christ. We will have the same divine attitude, beliefs, thought and even the same divine nature that Jesus had when He walked the earth.

So for me, I just do not want to be a part of man's error, even if there is "truth" mixed in. OR what appears to be truth. I want to say as far away from the error of man that I can. Becasue when God's wrath is poured out, I do not want to be anywhere near the things He is going to pour His wrath out on.

 

[JohnR7]

It doesn't matter whether John lies or not

Of course it matters if I lie. I just got though quoting the scripture that says ALL liars will be thrown into the lake of fire. Do you think that I want to be thrown into the lake of fire? Do you want to be thrown into a lake of fire? Does that sound like something you want?

For me I am going to do everything I can not to be a liar. I am very careful about the words I use to make sure they represent the truth. I am also very careful with the words I use to make sure they are something that I would want to come true. Far to often what I say comes true and happens.

 

[notto]

Of course it matters if I lie. I just got though quoting the scripture that says ALL liars will be thrown into the lake of fire. Do you think that I want to be thrown into the lake of fire? Do you want to be thrown into a lake of fire? Does that sound like something you want?

For me I am going to do everything I can not to be a liar. I am very careful about the words I use to make sure they represent the truth. I am also very careful with the words I use to make sure they are something that I would want to come true. Far to often what I say comes true and happens.

Then why do you tell us that Romans 1 applies to theistic evolutionist, when, by definition, theistic evolutionists are doing exactly what God calls us to to do to not be considered fools. Theistic evolutions look to creation to see revelation of the invisible nature, namely Gods eternal power and deity, that is clearly perceived in the things that God has made.

 

[JohnR7]

Then why do you tell us that Romans 1 applies to theistic evolutionist.

That was a misunderstand, I did not intend for that to apply to believes. I should have been more clear on that.

 

[Nathan David]

For me I am going to do everything I can not to be a liar.

You say that, but in another thread you posted this:

1) Mathmatical evidence of evolution = 0
2) Fossil evidence of evolution = 0
3) Laboratory observations of evolution = 0
4) Laws of Physics that support evolution = 0

Which contains not one but four lies.