God is Said to do that which He Merely Allowed or Permitted

[victoryword]

Thanks Harry. I believe that you will enjoy them. You will find that the Word-Faith teaching that God is not the author of sickness and disease can be fully supported without us dissecting the Old Testament from our Bibles.

 

[Truthfrees]

Thanks Harry. I believe that you will enjoy them. You will find that the Word-Faith teaching that God is not the author of sickness and disease can be fully supported without us dissecting the Old Testament from our Bibles.

Do you mean both OT and NT support that God is not the author of sickness and disease?

 

[victoryword]

Yes TF. I have researched this thoroughly. I remember that you liked Jewish studies. You will be fascinated by how many of the early Jews understood the certain incidents in the Old Testament attributed to God as actually being done by "prince Mastema" or Samael or the Death Angel - all their actual names for Satan. You will see how the idioms of permission were not properly translated into our English Bibles as well as certain words that should been see as "permissive" rather than "causative."

 

[victoryword]

Also, if anyone is interested, I have a short blog dealing with OT interpretation.

Cause and Effect: Key to Understanding God’s Ways in the Old Testament
http://vindicatinggod.blogspot.com/2015/12/cause-and-effect-key-to-understanding.html

 

[Truthfrees]

Yes TF. I have researched this thoroughly. I remember that you liked Jewish studies. You will be fascinated by how many of the early Jews understood the certain incidents in the Old Testament attributed to God as actually being done by "prince Mastema" or Samael or the Death Angel - all their actual names for Satan. You will see how the idioms of permission were not properly translated into our English Bibles as well as certain words that should been see as "permissive" rather than "causative."

Awesome!

Great stuff!

 

[Truthfrees]

Also, if anyone is interested, I have a short blog dealing with OT interpretation.

Cause and Effect: Key to Understanding God’s Ways in the Old Testament
http://vindicatinggod.blogspot.com/2015/12/cause-and-effect-key-to-understanding.html

Thanks for all the links!

Outstanding!

I like this part based on Isaiah 3:9-11:

God created the universe with a moral orderliness. The universe has been established upon the principles of cause and effect, action and reaction, sowing and reaping. This is why Isaiah could say that the wicked have rewarded evil unto themselves and that things would go well for the righteous because they would eat the fruit of their own doings.

God often takes credit for the self-inflicted punishment of the wicked and the reward given to the righteous because of the fact that He established the laws by which each receives these things based on their actions. God’s presence and protections remains over the righteous and as we pray, He ensures that we are rewarded. Since the wicked have forsaken the Lord, He allows them to receive the results of their wickedness and takes credit for inflicting it upon them.

This is the common principle by which the Old Testament can be interpreted. This does not mean that God is passive since He is often using His omnipotent power to protect the repent from the results of previous sins, protecting the righteous from the sins of others, and pleading with the wicked to turn from his or her evil ways. He is certainly involved. However, He also allows His established laws to take their course when wickedness prevails. In that sense, God is said to be the doer of what He permitted. This is the true understanding of God’s ways in the Old Testament.

Underlined what I think is a typo.

 

[victoryword]

LOL, I noticed that yesterday as well. I meant "repentant". I will correct it in the daily devotional book that I hope to have out before the new year.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

www.vindicatinggod.org

Congrats to making your book and wishing you the best!! I know it took years but praise the Lord for giving you the grace to do as you did

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Thanks for all the links!

Outstanding!

I like this part based on Isaiah 3:9-11:

God created the universe with a moral orderliness. The universe has been established upon the principles of cause and effect, action and reaction, sowing and reaping. This is why Isaiah could say that the wicked have rewarded evil unto themselves and that things would go well for the righteous because they would eat the fruit of their own doings.

God often takes credit for the self-inflicted punishment of the wicked and the reward given to the righteous because of the fact that He established the laws by which each receives these things based on their actions. God’s presence and protections remains over the righteous and as we pray, He ensures that we are rewarded. Since the wicked have forsaken the Lord, He allows them to receive the results of their wickedness and takes credit for inflicting it upon them.

This is the common principle by which the Old Testament can be interpreted. This does not mean that God is passive since He is often using His omnipotent power to protect the repent from the results of previous sins, protecting the righteous from the sins of others, and pleading with the wicked to turn from his or her evil ways. He is certainly involved. However, He also allows His established laws to take their course when wickedness prevails. In that sense, God is said to be the doer of what He permitted. This is the true understanding of God’s ways in the Old Testament.

Underlined what I think is a typo.

 

[tbeachhead]

Interesting. But it doesn't answer the primary question. Ok, Troy, let's assume for a moment that this is true: God (light) withdraws and darkness fills the void.

Question: where did darkness come from? Who or what created it?

I asked the Lord that in one of those long walks I took with Him in the fields of France the year I was missionating there. Another French RC asked me if God is so good, why is there so much evil in the world? So I took it to Him.

He said, Look at what I said: In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, and the earth was tohu/bohu and darkness was on the surface of the deep. And then God said "Light be...", and there was light. And God saw the light that it was good...

...He stopped me. He said, "When did I ever see the darkness and say it was good." So I said, "Where did the darkness come from." He said, what do you flush down to the sewers? You can't create life without waste. Michaelangelo sculpted his angels, what did he leave lying on the floor? What does this mean, "The entrance of your word brings light." That's the understanding of creation. In the beginning was the Word.

I still did not understand. He said, "See the field? Go into the field and pick up one of the cow patties there." In my minds eye, I followed Him. He said, "Now eat it." I said, "No, Lord. That's gross." "That's gross." "Yes. Disgusting." "Then take that cow patty and throw it into the field of wheat over there. What happens to the wheat?"

"It becomes strong." He said, "You're my planting. I want you strong."

In terms of God's "permissive will," one of the weakest excuses I've ever heard expounded, I've become more and more convinced that much of what happens to us in this world is more the permissive will of us in the church...we're equipped and armed with every spiritual blessing in heavenly places...with weapons that bring down strongholds. Yet we allow powers and principalities like Islam to rise up and conquer with little to no spiritual resistance at all.

The principle is simple: Faith that is not tried is only theory. It's not enough to say, "I believe." Your belief is proved by your attitude and actions when what you believe is opposed by what you see...How, then, do you walk? "Before the Word of the Lord came to pass...The Word of the Lord tested [Joseph.]" We all spend time in Pharaoh's dungeon. We've all been promised Pharaoh's right hand. How we behave in the dungeon is the catalyst that brings substance to our expected hope.

BTW...Hi, Guys. Seeing you again is like being doused with a mountain spring on a blazing summer's day.

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

I asked the Lord that in one of those long walks I took with Him in the fields of France the year I was missionating there. Another French RC asked me if God is so good, why is there so much evil in the world? So I took it to Him.

He said, Look at what I said: In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, and the earth was tohu/bohu and darkness was on the surface of the deep. And then God said "Light be...", and there was light. And God saw the light that it was good...

...He stopped me. He said, "When did I ever see the darkness and say it was good." So I said, "Where did the darkness come from." He said, what do you flush down to the sewers? You can't create life without waste. Michaelangelo sculpted his angels, what did he leave lying on the floor? What does this mean, "The entrance of your word brings light." That's the understanding of creation. In the beginning was the Word.

I still did not understand. He said, "See the field? Go into the field and pick up one of the cow patties there." In my minds eye, I followed Him. He said, "Now eat it." I said, "No, Lord. That's gross." "That's gross." "Yes. Disgusting." "Then take that cow patty and throw it into the field of wheat over there. What happens to the wheat?"

"It becomes strong." He said, "You're my planting. I want you strong."

In terms of God's "permissive will," one of the weakest excuses I've ever heard expounded, I've become more and more convinced that much of what happens to us in this world is more the permissive will of us in the church...we're equipped and armed with every spiritual blessing in heavenly places...with weapons that bring down strongholds. Yet we allow powers and principalities like Islam to rise up and conquer with little to no spiritual resistance at all.

The principle is simple: Faith that is not tried is only theory. It's not enough to say, "I believe." Your belief is proved by your attitude and actions when what you believe is opposed by what you see...How, then, do you walk? "Before the Word of the Lord came to pass...The Word of the Lord tested [Joseph.]" We all spend time in Pharaoh's dungeon. We've all been promised Pharaoh's right hand. How we behave in the dungeon is the catalyst that brings substance to our expected hope.

BTW...Hi, Guys. Seeing you again is like being doused with a mountain spring on a blazing summer's day.

Welcome back, Pete. Good to see you in these parts of the world again. Hope you can stay awhile. Home I can stay awhile too.

You're aware that the post you responded to was about a year old, right? And that it is one of my most caustic of questions to these boards? And I'll leave Copeland's agreement with my position aside for now (oh, I'm so ornery).

You may need to unpack your post a bit for clarity. It would seem you are juxtaposing the ugly/bad against the beautiful/good and the truth that it is in the persecution that our faith is strengthened the most; it is with the ugly that the beautiful is made to be more so.

But even though it would not be a good idea to eat the cow patty, and it is true that the cow patty helps the wheat not only to grow stronger but also makes it even more beneficial to us when we eat the wheat, your response did not directly give answer to the elephant in the room: where did the cow patty come from? Who created it? How did it come to be so that it could have purpose?

So when you returned to the French RC, what was your answer to him/her?

 

[tbeachhead]

Welcome back, Pete. Good to see you in these parts of the world again. Hope you can stay awhile. Hope I can stay awhile too.

You're aware that the post you responded to was about a year old, right?

Yeah...but it had you and VW and Jedi...my favorite folks to converse with...so I was hoping to say hi.

You may need to unpack your post a bit for clarity. It would seem you are juxtaposing the ugly/bad against the beautiful/good and the truth that it is in the persecution that our faith is strengthened the most; it is with the ugly that the beautiful is made to be more so.

In His light we see light...That's how light is judged.

But even though it would not be a good idea to eat the cow patty, and it is true that the cow patty helps the wheat not only to grow stronger but also makes it even more beneficial to us when we eat the wheat, your response did not directly give answer to the elephant in the room: where did the cow patty come from? Who created it? How did it come to be so that it could have purpose?

As I understood it, darkness is the absence of light...It's the world before the Word is ever spoken. It neither is nor isn't, just dark. Once the word is spoken, it's easy to separate the light from the darkness. Darkness becomes the refuse of creation.

And the sin nature instructs the unsaved to gravitate toward the effluvium...Hell is the absence of light, the absence of anything good...

So when you returned to the French RC, what was your answer to him/her?

I never saw him again...

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

As I understood it, darkness is the absence of light...It's the world before the Word is ever spoken. It neither is nor isn't, just dark.

So you are saying that something existed apart from God creating it? That when God said "Let there be light" and the light overtook the darkness, that the darkness was there first, uncreated, apart from God (Who is light).

Once the word is spoken, it's easy to separate the light from the darkness. Darkness becomes the refuse of creation.

This I don't disagree with, with the caveat that darkness is a thing and all things are created by God.

And the sin nature instructs the unsaved to gravitate toward the effluvium...Hell is the absence of light, the absence of anything good...

So...

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matthew 25:41​

Is hell prepared? Or if we want (and should) separate hell from everlasting fire, then is the everlasting fire prepared? Yes, they were. And they were not prepared for man, although unrepentant men will certainly find their place there. Did it just exist? Apart from good? Or is God simply pushing the lost out of creation into ... The What Isn't?

 

[tbeachhead]

So you are saying that something existed apart from God creating it? That when God said "Let there be light" and the light overtook the darkness, that the darkness was there first, uncreated, apart from God (Who is light).

Only if you are saying tohu bohu is something...Formlessness and void is emptiness and nothingness...To me, nothingness is nothing...and then God. And His spirit hovered over the waters...If anything the waters preexisted...but I'm not smart enough to do the quantum physics that are needed to untangle this scientifically.

This I don't disagree with, with the caveat that darkness is a thing and all things are created by God.

I'm thinking darkness is a non-thing...it's an absence of thing...And I can't prove it, but I think that it's significant that darkness, the offscouring of creation, is eliminated entirely from the New Jerusalem.

So...

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matthew 25:41​

Is hell prepared? Or if we want (and should) separate hell from everlasting fire, then is the everlasting fire prepared? Yes, they were. And they were not prepared for man, although unrepentant men will certainly find their place there. Did it just exist? Apart from good? Or is God simply pushing the lost out of creation into ... The What Isn't?

Hell is prepared...and it's a lake...and It's throughout the OT...Tophet, where they burned their children in Jeremiah, is the valley of Hinnom...Gehennah. It's a powerful shadow of hell.

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

Only if you are saying tohu bohu is something...Formlessness and void is emptiness and nothingness...To me, nothingness is nothing...and then God. And His spirit hovered over the waters...If anything the waters preexisted...but I'm not smart enough to do the quantum physics that are needed to untangle this scientifically.

Derek Prince has a very good teaching on tohu bohu, but it is more along the lines of "lot's of stuff" between verse 1 and 2 in Genesis 1. Tohu bohu is also in Jeremiah and means calamity and disorder. If God created the world in verse 1 in perfection, then to get to tohu bohu something massive had to happen (perhaps an archangel who rebelled and a third of the angels of heaven being cast to the earth?).

btw, the preexisting waters had darkness over them.

I'm thinking darkness is a non-thing...it's an absence of thing...And I can't prove it, but I think that it's significant that darkness, the offscouring of creation, is eliminated entirely from the New Jerusalem.

Sin won't be in the New Jerusalem; neither will tears; are these things?

Ok. Go back to creation in your mind's eye. God creates light -- darkness is the non-thing that is where the light isn't. Now back up and take away the light. What is there?

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was without shape and empty, and darkness was over the surface of the watery deep, but the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the water. 3 God said, "Let there be light." And there was light!
Gen 1:1-3 (NET)
​

Light isn't until verse 3, btw. How did darkness get in verse 2? So.... v1: God creates. v2: proof that darkness exists (without light). v3: creation of light.

Is darkness real? Or is it the absence of (what?).... light? Nah, it wasn't created yet. We need to establish if darkness is a thing. For God created ALL things.

Hell is prepared...and it's a lake...and It's throughout the OT...Tophet, where they burned their children in Jeremiah, is the valley of Hinnom...Gehennah. It's a powerful shadow of hell.

100% agreement here.

What is hell prepared for?

 

[tbeachhead]

Derek Prince has a very good teaching on tohu bohu, but it is more along the lines of "lot's of stuff" between verse 1 and 2 in Genesis 1. Tohu bohu is also in Jeremiah and means calamity and disorder. If God created the world in verse 1 in perfection, then to get to tohu bohu something massive had to happen (perhaps an archangel who rebelled and a third of the angels of heaven being cast to the earth?).

I reject the exaltation of satan to something higher than a beast of the field over which Adam had total authority and command. Jesus called satan a liar from the beginning...never "...a great musician and god's right hand man...before he fell." That, as I've said so many times to the scorn of so many, would mean that Jesus was wrong. To me, there was never a beginning after the beginning, and satan's first act was to lie. The Bible is replete with verses that state "..the earth trembles...over a slave, when he becomes king..." Proverbs has it right.

Satan has not fallen yet...but he fell off his earthly throne in the Galilee like lightning from heaven when the seventy displaced him in the villages, driving out demons. And Jesus foresaw it, and rejoiced at the news.

But I like Princes "lot's of stuff..." Tohu bohu is what it takes to make creation happen...It's what happens to matter when time is not. If I understand anything about quantum physics, you cannot have anything material outside the constrictions of time. And time began when light was created...because from that moment on momentum exists.

btw, the preexisting waters had darkness over them.

They were covered with it, in fact...Where nothing is, nothingness covers it all.

Hey...why do you insist I talk weird like this. Wouldn't you rather learn French?

Sin won't be in the New Jerusalem; neither will tears; are these things?

No...Sin is the wrong response to God's love, and tears are the hearts response to pain. These aren't things that exist outside of the soul of man.

Ok. Go back to creation in your mind's eye. God creates light -- darkness is the non-thing that is where the light isn't. Now back up and take away the light. What is there?

The beginning, before the word is spoken. But once the Word is spoken it holds all things together. His Word is light, Created when spoken. It cannot be uncreated. God has spoken, He cannot unsay. When truth is revealed it cannot be hidden.

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was without shape and empty, and darkness was over the surface of the watery deep, but the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the water. 3 God said, "Let there be light." And there was light!
Gen 1:1-3 (NET)

I do not like this translation. Hebrew does not say "watery" deep. That's presumption to clarify, a trap for an interpreter...​

Light isn't until verse 3, btw. How did darkness get in verse 2?

Darkness is the absence of light. You do not create absence. You do not create vacuum. It simply says before there was, there was nothing. Non-existence does not exist.

You have to grasp that if there is no such thing as time, the term "before" is specious at best.

So.... v1: God creates. v2: proof that darkness exists (without light). v3: creation of light.

I wouldn't raise the flag of victory over that proof...If nothing is, then...it is logical to suggest that nothing is. Since there is not proof, I have just proven that there is no proof...I know...You're going to suggest that I'm talking like a mutual friend...I don't know how else to put it. I concede to your brilliance, but I don't thing you can go very far...when you have nothing.

You're actually only saying "Nothing pre-existed God...", which is all anyone has ever said!

Is darkness real? Or is it the absence of (what?).... light? Nah, it wasn't created yet. We need to establish if darkness is a thing. For God created ALL things.

Try erasing God Himself...and see what you get.

Here's the simple Truth: God ever is...and with Him is Wisdom and Love. He got a notion..."It is not good to be alone." That notion, compelled by love, drove Him to consult with Wisdom, who spoke...and out came...Bob.

I kind of like that better than Genesis 1...but I admit, it's in a nutshell...and I'm often called a nut case.

100% agreement here.

What is hell prepared for?

A disposal of all the waste.

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

I reject the exaltation of satan to something higher than a beast of the field over which Adam had total authority and command.

This may actually be a better thread. Hmm. I believe that Satan was something higher than a beast of the field. I believe he was an archangel who was cast from heaven. Jesus tells us this in Luke 10:18. We also see:

Isa 14:12 (KJV) How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!​

He fell (already, in the past) from heaven. (And I agree that prior to the fall Adam had authority over him.[1]) He was cut down to earth -- that's a violent picture. But his falling weakened the nations (his deception is great).

The rest of this Isaiah set of verses describes Lucifer's desire to rise above God. His pride made him want to be like God. In verse 16 we see that he was one who made the earth tremble, he shook kingdoms; he made the world a wilderness, destroyed cities.

But in Luke 10:19 Jesus gives us authority over the full force of the enemy. We do not have to fear Satan at all. Not because he is just a beast of the field -- for he was not a snake, but inhabited the body of a snake -- but because as strong as he may have been, we have been given authority over him. He can't hurt us. We resist and he must flee.

Jesus called satan a liar from the beginning...never "...a great musician and god's right hand man...before he fell." That, as I've said so many times to the scorn of so many, would mean that Jesus was wrong.

Why would it make Jesus a liar?

First you must define "the beginning." The beginning of what? This is the bible and is a book describing the beginning of our earth and of mankind. It does NOT show us the creation of the angels. Nowhere. So from what beginning? I say the beginning described in Genesis -- of our world and of mankind.

So Jesus is saying that Satan was a liar from the beginning....from whence (and because of which) he was cast down to the earth. When iniquity was found in him. This is the beginning of when Satan is a liar. Let's let the Word show us who Lucifer, who is Satan, is:

Moreover the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 12 “Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord God:

“You were the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The sardius, topaz, and diamond,
Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
Was prepared for you on the day you were created.

14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.

16 “By the abundance of your trading
You became filled with violence within,
And you sinned;
Therefore I cast you as a profane thing
Out of the mountain of God;
And I destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the fiery stones.

17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor;
I cast you to the ground,
I laid you before kings,
That they might gaze at you.​

Verse 15 does not make Jesus a liar. Lucifer was perfect as the anointed cherub that covers. But once iniquity was found in him he was a liar. He grew in pride. He attempted to rise above God. Then he was cast down to the created earth, the beginning for mankind. And in man's age Satan has always been a liar.

To me, there was never a beginning after the beginning, and satan's first act was to lie. The Bible is replete with verses that state "..the earth trembles...over a slave, when he becomes king..." Proverbs has it right.

I don't know, Pete. The bible says that before iniquity was found in him he "walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones." He was in heaven, in the throne room of God. He was anointed. Then he sinned, was cast down, and has lied ever since.

I believe that because of the magnitude of his sin he was execrated. Cut off with no possibility of salvation. No repentance. No forgiveness. And because of this he wants to take as many with him as he can.

But Satan is a created being. Would you agree? Did God create something that was never good? Something that simply had no chance? Did God create something evil?


[1] I also hold that man had limited authority over him after the fall. We retained dominion of this earth. Proverbs tells us that the earth is God's (after the fall) and God had given us dominion to rule. We never lost that. In the OT God calls men 'gods.' Rulers. Judges. We never lost that in the fall. If we had lost our authority then Satan would have eaten man alive and destroyed him before redemption could take place (in the timeline that did occur, at least). But we can look to the example of Job, for instance, and Satan couldn't touch him without permission.

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

Ok, the rest of the post....

Satan has not fallen yet...but he fell off his earthly throne in the Galilee like lightning from heaven when the seventy displaced him in the villages, driving out demons. And Jesus foresaw it, and rejoiced at the news.

Pete, Pete, Pete. You'd have to play word games with Luke to get this to be true. Kinda like when Fred K.C. Price (whom I love and respect) who moved the comma and said that the thief was told: "I tell you today, you will be with me in heaven." No. Let's not play games with language to make our ends meet.

Luke 10:18 (NET)So he said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.​

Satan fell like lightning from heaven. English: Satan fell [like lightning] from heaven.

Here:

(KJV) And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
(Amp) He said to them, “I watched Satan fall from heaven like [a flash of] lightning."
(CEV) I saw Satan fall from heaven like a flash of lightning.
(NASB) And He said to them, “I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning."​

But I like Princes "lot's of stuff..." Tohu bohu is what it takes to make creation happen...It's what happens to matter when time is not. If I understand anything about quantum physics, you cannot have anything material outside the constrictions of time. And time began when light was created...because from that moment on momentum exists.
They were covered with it, in fact...Where nothing is, nothingness covers it all.

Prince's tohu bohu is a pre-Adamic civilization between verse 1 and 2. It's destruction caused the chaotic state of verse 2. You'd have to look up his teaching for his support for this. He actually does a very good job showing biblical reference in support.

Hey...why do you insist I talk weird like this. Wouldn't you rather learn French?
No...Sin is the wrong response to God's love, and tears are the hearts response to pain. These aren't things that exist outside of the soul of man.

I'll give you the response regarding sin, but tears are real. They slide down my cheeks and drip onto my shirt.

The beginning, before the word is spoken. But once the Word is spoken it holds all things together. His Word is light, Created when spoken. It cannot be uncreated. God has spoken, He cannot unsay. When truth is revealed it cannot be hidden.

No, my point wasn't to undo it. It was simply to look back...before.

I do not like this translation. Hebrew does not say "watery" deep. That's presumption to clarify, a trap for an interpreter...

"Watery" is not important for this discussion. There is darkness over the deep. It doesn't say there is void over the deep. There is something over the deep: darkness (choshek). The darkness is neither the tohu nor the bohu. So let's deal with the darkness. It is a thing, not a void, not 'nothing.' It is spelled out by God: darkness.

Darkness is the absence of light. You do not create absence. You do not create vacuum. It simply says before there was, there was nothing. Non-existence does not exist.

Hmm...

Gen 1:4 Darkness is divided from the light.
-- is non-existent nothing in need of a division? And if we keep reading it is given place; if it were nothing either light would have taken over everything, or the dark we see now, at night, would be a vacuumous void of nothing.

Joshua 24:7 And when they cried unto the Lord, he put darkness between you and the Egyptians, and brought the sea upon them, and covered them;
-- so He put non-existent nothing in between?

Psalm 18:11 [The Lord] made darkness His secret place; his pavilion round about Him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.
-- again choshek, the same darkness you wish to be a non-existent nothingness of void.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
-- the verse that got me in all this hot water to begin with.

So Pete, I don't ascribe darkness to simply be the absence of light. It existed prior to light. And it was created by God. It is a something. And that something draws back when light is shined.

Oh, and let's not forget:

John 1:5 And Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
-- what is nothing, a void, that can comprehend?

You have to grasp that if there is no such thing as time, the term "before" is specious at best. I wouldn't raise the flag of victory over that proof...If nothing is, then...it is logical to suggest that nothing is. Since there is not proof, I have just proven that there is no proof...

Yet if you have just proven it, then there is a proof. And if you have just proven there is no proof then there is error in your thesis.

I know...You're going to suggest that I'm talking like a mutual friend...I don't know how else to put it. I concede to your brilliance, but I don't thing you can go very far...when you have nothing.

Ahh, but since God created it (Isa 45:7), it could not be nothing. It must be something.

You're actually only saying "Nothing pre-existed God...", which is all anyone has ever said!

Try erasing God Himself...and see what you get.

Nah. We are firmly in the first verses of Genesis. We are not in a fictitious pre-existing God period. This is not even pre-existing creation. This is after creation has begun.

Here's the simple Truth: God ever is...and with Him is Wisdom and Love. He got a notion..."It is not good to be alone." That notion, compelled by love, drove Him to consult with Wisdom, who spoke...and out came...Bob.

I kind of like that better than Genesis 1...but I admit, it's in a nutshell...and I'm often called a nut case.

A disposal of all the waste.

No, a disposal destroys and makes no more.

in the lake there will be gnashing of teeth and wailing for eternity. And it is described as the outer darkness.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Also, if anyone is interested, I have a short blog dealing with OT interpretation.

Cause and Effect: Key to Understanding God’s Ways in the Old Testament
http://vindicatinggod.blogspot.com/2015/12/cause-and-effect-key-to-understanding.html

Good perspective to keep in mind

 

[Simon the Tanner]

This is where a lot of WoF people get off track. They're not mature enough or sufficiently grounded in the Word to recognize the different between Christian confession and New Age affirmation. They don't see the different between self-centered spirituality and Christ-centered spirituality. They don't understand that The Law of Attraction isn't the same thing as receiving the promises of God through biblical faith. As a result they fall prey to New Age concepts and teaching. And it's not just the newbies. Some WoF teachers also don't seem to discern the difference. That's what has inspired so many of the anti-WoF books and videos. It's time we bring WoF people back in line with biblical faith, confession, and visualization.