Thanks Harry. I believe that you will enjoy them. You will find that the Word-Faith teaching that God is not the author of sickness and disease can be fully supported without us dissecting the Old Testament from our Bibles.
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Do you mean both OT and NT support that God is not the author of sickness and disease?Thanks Harry. I believe that you will enjoy them. You will find that the Word-Faith teaching that God is not the author of sickness and disease can be fully supported without us dissecting the Old Testament from our Bibles.
Awesome!Yes TF. I have researched this thoroughly. I remember that you liked Jewish studies. You will be fascinated by how many of the early Jews understood the certain incidents in the Old Testament attributed to God as actually being done by "prince Mastema" or Samael or the Death Angel - all their actual names for Satan. You will see how the idioms of permission were not properly translated into our English Bibles as well as certain words that should been see as "permissive" rather than "causative."
Thanks for all the links!Also, if anyone is interested, I have a short blog dealing with OT interpretation.
Cause and Effect: Key to Understanding God’s Ways in the Old Testament
http://vindicatinggod.blogspot.com/2015/12/cause-and-effect-key-to-understanding.html
Thanks for all the links!
Outstanding!
I like this part based on Isaiah 3:9-11:
God created the universe with a moral orderliness. The universe has been established upon the principles of cause and effect, action and reaction, sowing and reaping. This is why Isaiah could say that the wicked have rewarded evil unto themselves and that things would go well for the righteous because they would eat the fruit of their own doings.
God often takes credit for the self-inflicted punishment of the wicked and the reward given to the righteous because of the fact that He established the laws by which each receives these things based on their actions. God’s presence and protections remains over the righteous and as we pray, He ensures that we are rewarded. Since the wicked have forsaken the Lord, He allows them to receive the results of their wickedness and takes credit for inflicting it upon them.
This is the common principle by which the Old Testament can be interpreted. This does not mean that God is passive since He is often using His omnipotent power to protect the repent from the results of previous sins, protecting the righteous from the sins of others, and pleading with the wicked to turn from his or her evil ways. He is certainly involved. However, He also allows His established laws to take their course when wickedness prevails. In that sense, God is said to be the doer of what He permitted. This is the true understanding of God’s ways in the Old Testament.
Underlined what I think is a typo.
I asked the Lord that in one of those long walks I took with Him in the fields of France the year I was missionating there. Another French RC asked me if God is so good, why is there so much evil in the world? So I took it to Him.Interesting. But it doesn't answer the primary question. Ok, Troy, let's assume for a moment that this is true: God (light) withdraws and darkness fills the void.
Question: where did darkness come from? Who or what created it?
I asked the Lord that in one of those long walks I took with Him in the fields of France the year I was missionating there. Another French RC asked me if God is so good, why is there so much evil in the world? So I took it to Him.
He said, Look at what I said: In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, and the earth was tohu/bohu and darkness was on the surface of the deep. And then God said "Light be...", and there was light. And God saw the light that it was good...
...He stopped me. He said, "When did I ever see the darkness and say it was good." So I said, "Where did the darkness come from." He said, what do you flush down to the sewers? You can't create life without waste. Michaelangelo sculpted his angels, what did he leave lying on the floor? What does this mean, "The entrance of your word brings light." That's the understanding of creation. In the beginning was the Word.
I still did not understand. He said, "See the field? Go into the field and pick up one of the cow patties there." In my minds eye, I followed Him. He said, "Now eat it." I said, "No, Lord. That's gross." "That's gross." "Yes. Disgusting." "Then take that cow patty and throw it into the field of wheat over there. What happens to the wheat?"
"It becomes strong." He said, "You're my planting. I want you strong."
In terms of God's "permissive will," one of the weakest excuses I've ever heard expounded, I've become more and more convinced that much of what happens to us in this world is more the permissive will of us in the church...we're equipped and armed with every spiritual blessing in heavenly places...with weapons that bring down strongholds. Yet we allow powers and principalities like Islam to rise up and conquer with little to no spiritual resistance at all.
The principle is simple: Faith that is not tried is only theory. It's not enough to say, "I believe." Your belief is proved by your attitude and actions when what you believe is opposed by what you see...How, then, do you walk? "Before the Word of the Lord came to pass...The Word of the Lord tested [Joseph.]" We all spend time in Pharaoh's dungeon. We've all been promised Pharaoh's right hand. How we behave in the dungeon is the catalyst that brings substance to our expected hope.
BTW...Hi, Guys. Seeing you again is like being doused with a mountain spring on a blazing summer's day.
Yeah...but it had you and VW and Jedi...my favorite folks to converse with...so I was hoping to say hi.Welcome back, Pete. Good to see you in these parts of the world again. Hope you can stay awhile. Hope I can stay awhile too.
You're aware that the post you responded to was about a year old, right?
In His light we see light...That's how light is judged.You may need to unpack your post a bit for clarity. It would seem you are juxtaposing the ugly/bad against the beautiful/good and the truth that it is in the persecution that our faith is strengthened the most; it is with the ugly that the beautiful is made to be more so.
As I understood it, darkness is the absence of light...It's the world before the Word is ever spoken. It neither is nor isn't, just dark. Once the word is spoken, it's easy to separate the light from the darkness. Darkness becomes the refuse of creation.But even though it would not be a good idea to eat the cow patty, and it is true that the cow patty helps the wheat not only to grow stronger but also makes it even more beneficial to us when we eat the wheat, your response did not directly give answer to the elephant in the room: where did the cow patty come from? Who created it? How did it come to be so that it could have purpose?
I never saw him again...So when you returned to the French RC, what was your answer to him/her?
So you are saying that something existed apart from God creating it? That when God said "Let there be light" and the light overtook the darkness, that the darkness was there first, uncreated, apart from God (Who is light).As I understood it, darkness is the absence of light...It's the world before the Word is ever spoken. It neither is nor isn't, just dark.
This I don't disagree with, with the caveat that darkness is a thing and all things are created by God.Once the word is spoken, it's easy to separate the light from the darkness. Darkness becomes the refuse of creation.
So...And the sin nature instructs the unsaved to gravitate toward the effluvium...Hell is the absence of light, the absence of anything good...
Only if you are saying tohu bohu is something...Formlessness and void is emptiness and nothingness...To me, nothingness is nothing...and then God. And His spirit hovered over the waters...If anything the waters preexisted...but I'm not smart enough to do the quantum physics that are needed to untangle this scientifically.So you are saying that something existed apart from God creating it? That when God said "Let there be light" and the light overtook the darkness, that the darkness was there first, uncreated, apart from God (Who is light).
I'm thinking darkness is a non-thing...it's an absence of thing...And I can't prove it, but I think that it's significant that darkness, the offscouring of creation, is eliminated entirely from the New Jerusalem.This I don't disagree with, with the caveat that darkness is a thing and all things are created by God.
Hell is prepared...and it's a lake...and It's throughout the OT...Tophet, where they burned their children in Jeremiah, is the valley of Hinnom...Gehennah. It's a powerful shadow of hell.So...
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matthew 25:41
Is hell prepared? Or if we want (and should) separate hell from everlasting fire, then is the everlasting fire prepared? Yes, they were. And they were not prepared for man, although unrepentant men will certainly find their place there. Did it just exist? Apart from good? Or is God simply pushing the lost out of creation into ... The What Isn't?
Derek Prince has a very good teaching on tohu bohu, but it is more along the lines of "lot's of stuff" between verse 1 and 2 in Genesis 1. Tohu bohu is also in Jeremiah and means calamity and disorder. If God created the world in verse 1 in perfection, then to get to tohu bohu something massive had to happen (perhaps an archangel who rebelled and a third of the angels of heaven being cast to the earth?).Only if you are saying tohu bohu is something...Formlessness and void is emptiness and nothingness...To me, nothingness is nothing...and then God. And His spirit hovered over the waters...If anything the waters preexisted...but I'm not smart enough to do the quantum physics that are needed to untangle this scientifically.
Sin won't be in the New Jerusalem; neither will tears; are these things?I'm thinking darkness is a non-thing...it's an absence of thing...And I can't prove it, but I think that it's significant that darkness, the offscouring of creation, is eliminated entirely from the New Jerusalem.
Hell is prepared...and it's a lake...and It's throughout the OT...Tophet, where they burned their children in Jeremiah, is the valley of Hinnom...Gehennah. It's a powerful shadow of hell.
I reject the exaltation of satan to something higher than a beast of the field over which Adam had total authority and command. Jesus called satan a liar from the beginning...never "...a great musician and god's right hand man...before he fell." That, as I've said so many times to the scorn of so many, would mean that Jesus was wrong. To me, there was never a beginning after the beginning, and satan's first act was to lie. The Bible is replete with verses that state "..the earth trembles...over a slave, when he becomes king..." Proverbs has it right.Derek Prince has a very good teaching on tohu bohu, but it is more along the lines of "lot's of stuff" between verse 1 and 2 in Genesis 1. Tohu bohu is also in Jeremiah and means calamity and disorder. If God created the world in verse 1 in perfection, then to get to tohu bohu something massive had to happen (perhaps an archangel who rebelled and a third of the angels of heaven being cast to the earth?).
They were covered with it, in fact...Where nothing is, nothingness covers it all.btw, the preexisting waters had darkness over them.
No...Sin is the wrong response to God's love, and tears are the hearts response to pain. These aren't things that exist outside of the soul of man.Sin won't be in the New Jerusalem; neither will tears; are these things?
The beginning, before the word is spoken. But once the Word is spoken it holds all things together. His Word is light, Created when spoken. It cannot be uncreated. God has spoken, He cannot unsay. When truth is revealed it cannot be hidden.Ok. Go back to creation in your mind's eye. God creates light -- darkness is the non-thing that is where the light isn't. Now back up and take away the light. What is there?
I do not like this translation. Hebrew does not say "watery" deep. That's presumption to clarify, a trap for an interpreter...1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was without shape and empty, and darkness was over the surface of the watery deep, but the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the water. 3 God said, "Let there be light." And there was light!
Gen 1:1-3 (NET)
Darkness is the absence of light. You do not create absence. You do not create vacuum. It simply says before there was, there was nothing. Non-existence does not exist.Light isn't until verse 3, btw. How did darkness get in verse 2?
I wouldn't raise the flag of victory over that proof...If nothing is, then...it is logical to suggest that nothing is. Since there is not proof, I have just proven that there is no proof...I know...You're going to suggest that I'm talking like a mutual friend...I don't know how else to put it. I concede to your brilliance, but I don't thing you can go very far...when you have nothing.So.... v1: God creates. v2: proof that darkness exists (without light). v3: creation of light.
Try erasing God Himself...and see what you get.Is darkness real? Or is it the absence of (what?).... light? Nah, it wasn't created yet. We need to establish if darkness is a thing. For God created ALL things.
A disposal of all the waste.100% agreement here.
What is hell prepared for?
I reject the exaltation of satan to something higher than a beast of the field over which Adam had total authority and command.
Why would it make Jesus a liar?Jesus called satan a liar from the beginning...never "...a great musician and god's right hand man...before he fell." That, as I've said so many times to the scorn of so many, would mean that Jesus was wrong.
To me, there was never a beginning after the beginning, and satan's first act was to lie. The Bible is replete with verses that state "..the earth trembles...over a slave, when he becomes king..." Proverbs has it right.
Pete, Pete, Pete. You'd have to play word games with Luke to get this to be true. Kinda like when Fred K.C. Price (whom I love and respect) who moved the comma and said that the thief was told: "I tell you today, you will be with me in heaven." No. Let's not play games with language to make our ends meet.Satan has not fallen yet...but he fell off his earthly throne in the Galilee like lightning from heaven when the seventy displaced him in the villages, driving out demons. And Jesus foresaw it, and rejoiced at the news.
Prince's tohu bohu is a pre-Adamic civilization between verse 1 and 2. It's destruction caused the chaotic state of verse 2. You'd have to look up his teaching for his support for this. He actually does a very good job showing biblical reference in support.But I like Princes "lot's of stuff..." Tohu bohu is what it takes to make creation happen...It's what happens to matter when time is not. If I understand anything about quantum physics, you cannot have anything material outside the constrictions of time. And time began when light was created...because from that moment on momentum exists.
They were covered with it, in fact...Where nothing is, nothingness covers it all.
I'll give you the response regarding sin, but tears are real. They slide down my cheeks and drip onto my shirt.Hey...why do you insist I talk weird like this. Wouldn't you rather learn French?
No...Sin is the wrong response to God's love, and tears are the hearts response to pain. These aren't things that exist outside of the soul of man.
No, my point wasn't to undo it. It was simply to look back...before.The beginning, before the word is spoken. But once the Word is spoken it holds all things together. His Word is light, Created when spoken. It cannot be uncreated. God has spoken, He cannot unsay. When truth is revealed it cannot be hidden.
"Watery" is not important for this discussion. There is darkness over the deep. It doesn't say there is void over the deep. There is something over the deep: darkness (choshek). The darkness is neither the tohu nor the bohu. So let's deal with the darkness. It is a thing, not a void, not 'nothing.' It is spelled out by God: darkness.I do not like this translation. Hebrew does not say "watery" deep. That's presumption to clarify, a trap for an interpreter...
Hmm...Darkness is the absence of light. You do not create absence. You do not create vacuum. It simply says before there was, there was nothing. Non-existence does not exist.
Yet if you have just proven it, then there is a proof. And if you have just proven there is no proof then there is error in your thesis.You have to grasp that if there is no such thing as time, the term "before" is specious at best. I wouldn't raise the flag of victory over that proof...If nothing is, then...it is logical to suggest that nothing is. Since there is not proof, I have just proven that there is no proof...
Ahh, but since God created it (Isa 45:7), it could not be nothing. It must be something.I know...You're going to suggest that I'm talking like a mutual friend...I don't know how else to put it. I concede to your brilliance, but I don't thing you can go very far...when you have nothing.
Nah. We are firmly in the first verses of Genesis. We are not in a fictitious pre-existing God period. This is not even pre-existing creation. This is after creation has begun.You're actually only saying "Nothing pre-existed God...", which is all anyone has ever said!
Try erasing God Himself...and see what you get.
Here's the simple Truth: God ever is...and with Him is Wisdom and Love. He got a notion..."It is not good to be alone." That notion, compelled by love, drove Him to consult with Wisdom, who spoke...and out came...Bob.
I kind of like that better than Genesis 1...but I admit, it's in a nutshell...and I'm often called a nut case.
No, a disposal destroys and makes no more.A disposal of all the waste.
Good perspective to keep in mindAlso, if anyone is interested, I have a short blog dealing with OT interpretation.
Cause and Effect: Key to Understanding God’s Ways in the Old Testament
http://vindicatinggod.blogspot.com/2015/12/cause-and-effect-key-to-understanding.html