God is obliged, to help you evolve? On Earth, "no"; in Heaven, "yes" - Discuss.

[Gottservant]

Hi there,

So further to my discussion of the relevance of a host, to Evolution, I have started to wonder about God, specifically God helping creatures "evolve". Is God obliged to help creatures "evolve"? This question comes down to where it is that God offers the help. Jesus tells us "I do not receive honour from men" (gospels, from memory); men are those who dwell on Earth, so He is effectively saying "I do nothing, for the men of Earth" - because if He did something, then He would be said to receive honour. However, the Bible also tells us, that God is not willing that any should perish (letters, from memory).

If God is not willing that any perish, then He is obliged to give them a place, where they will survive - this place is Heaven. The point being that once you are in Heaven - because place is important - evolving is a constructive concept, one that is able to add to our survival (and not merely be "just enough"). There is no sense in which, you will be thrown out of Heaven for evolving the wrong way, as long as you continue to give God the praise, for having being evolved further. This is power. God is able to shape how things evolve, on Earth from Heaven. There is no sense in which God needs to change, in order to accommodate men on Earth.

That leaves Hell. Hell is the place where you can't evolve, even if you want to. We understand that this is for people who would persecute God for showing favouritism and would destroy the things of Earth, because they can not reach Heaven (not having praise for God). So it is that those in Heaven and Heaven on Earth, will always be more evolved, than the rest - because that is the way God designed them and their respective places. God wants praise that is genuine - He is not a fool. If you insult God, it will not be long before you lose favour with everything you should have known in life, was praise for God.

The power of this, is that it is possible to know, when your life is in favour with God, whether it evolves or not. From there you can choose to strengthen the faith of your young, with what you know about the will of God. This gives you power, but it also gives your young power. There is a word "discretion" which is apt, in this context - it refers to the idea of discerning one way or the other, how things should go: when you are truly old enough, this discretion will give you grown strength and long life and you will know for yourself, whether you believe Evolution "correctly" (for how can you believe "Evolution" correctly and not have favour?).

May your strength grow and your life be long - in all things praise God and He will grant you His favour.

 

[returntosender]

What's the definition of evolve as you use it here?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Hi there,

So further to my discussion of the relevance of a host, to Evolution, I have started to wonder about God, specifically God helping creatures "evolve". Is God obliged to help creatures "evolve"? This question comes down to where it is that God offers the help. Jesus tells us "I do not receive honour from men" (gospels, from memory); men are those who dwell on Earth, so He is effectively saying "I do nothing, for the men of Earth" - because if He did something, then He would be said to receive honour. However, the Bible also tells us, that God is not willing that any should perish (letters, from memory).

If God is not willing that any perish, then He is obliged to give them a place, where they will survive - this place is Heaven. The point being that once you are in Heaven - because place is important - evolving is a constructive concept, one that is able to add to our survival (and not merely be "just enough"). There is no sense in which, you will be thrown out of Heaven for evolving the wrong way, as long as you continue to give God the praise, for having being evolved further. This is power. God is able to shape how things evolve, on Earth from Heaven. There is no sense in which God needs to change, in order to accommodate men on Earth.

That leaves Hell. Hell is the place where you can't evolve, even if you want to. We understand that this is for people who would persecute God for showing favouritism and would destroy the things of Earth, because they can not reach Heaven (not having praise for God). So it is that those in Heaven and Heaven on Earth, will always be more evolved, than the rest - because that is the way God designed them and their respective places. God wants praise that is genuine - He is not a fool. If you insult God, it will not be long before you lose favour with everything you should have known in life, was praise for God.

The power of this, is that it is possible to know, when your life is in favour with God, whether it evolves or not. From there you can choose to strengthen the faith of your young, with what you know about the will of God. This gives you power, but it also gives your young power. There is a word "discretion" which is apt, in this context - it refers to the idea of discerning one way or the other, how things should go: when you are truly old enough, this discretion will give you grown strength and long life and you will know for yourself, whether you believe Evolution "correctly" (for how can you believe "Evolution" correctly and not have favour?).

May your strength grow and your life be long - in all things praise God and He will grant you His favour.

I can't help but wonder, WHO do you think we are? Or maybe, WHAT do you think we are? Our life is in HIM, not in evolving. We are not even whole beings until we see him as he is. So how will we be separately "evolving"? What in the world are you talking about? God obligated???

 

[timewerx]

Won't Earth be the best place for evolution??

What drives evolution or adaptations are adversities, strife, hardships.

Ironically, the pillar characters in the Christian Faith like Jesus and His disciples including Paul, all of them faced enormous difficulties when they lived. Paul faced incredible hardships when he became a believer. It did not end until he died and even the way he died is horrific.

But most Christians do not seek this, they all dream of retiring in comfort and easy life here on Earth. Most frighteningly, Jesus says badly about this condition. You'll lose your soul if seek for it.

 

[returntosender]

Have humans evolved from the genisis til now? Nope! So it won't be on earth.

 

[Hans Blaster]

What's the definition of evolve as you use it here?

Who knows. Gotts has his own "head version" of "evolution" that somehow is all tied up in his theology and utterly lacking in science, rather than using a version somewhat close to the scientific understanding which would be appropriate for a discussion of the subject in the science section of CF.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I am not sure the word "obliged" is appropriate here or anywhere else in the relationship between man and God.
God is "obliged" to Jesus because He required Jesus to go to the cross because "there was no other way" to save mankind. We are the beneficiaries of that obligation God has to His Son Jesus.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Have humans evolved from the genisis til now? Nope! So it won't be on earth.

What evolution? What does @Gottservant mean by evolution, as he refers to it? I can't get a cohesive use of his post at all, nevermind a coherent argument defending the notion that God must be obligated to anyone, nor to do anything.

For that matter, what do you mean by 'evolution' as you refer to it here?

 

[Gottservant]

Won't Earth be the best place for evolution??

Heaven has the easiest and lightest adaptations.

 

[Gottservant]

What evolution? What does @Gottservant mean by evolution, as he refers to it? I can't get a cohesive use of his post at all, nevermind a coherent argument defending the notion that God must be obligated to anyone, nor to do anything.

For that matter, what do you mean by 'evolution' as you refer to it here?

There are three productive alternatives, that are all qualified in the same way: creation - that is by design -, attraction - that is by courtship-, and evolution - that is by hunt. These three things are circularly beneficial (creation helps attraction, attraction helps evolution and evolution helps creation). It is possible to qualify them differently, in a sense that is not believed to be circular, but not being circular liberates this way of qualifying from qualifying it another - it is not necessary to be productive and on the hunt at the same time. That keeps it from being a useless qualification.

So we have the hunt, when it comes to Evolution, and we have the pack that is on the hunt, which reinforces the Evolution on the hunt. That is Evolution, reinforcing what advances from hunt to prey, in terms of the pack. Knowing what the pack is hunting for, is dependent on design, you cannot change that - take away the pack's ability to know what it is hunting for, makes the hunt ineffectual. So you see, it comes full circle: the hunter secures the prey and the hunt is over - but the rest that survive are able to communicate amongst themselves what it is that will likely escape the hunt in future (this is proactive Evolution, in a productive sense).

I have been at pains to work this out, for some time now and I have just recently introduced the concept of "reinforcing Evolution", which is the idea that one way evolution, is more productive than any-way-at-all evolution; you can't arrive at one way evolution on Earth, but you can in Heaven, which is why your soul lives, a fact that separates those who believe in the soul from those that think the flesh is what is responsible for a given creature's adaptations. I believe the soul is responsible for its adaptations, which is why I introduced the concept of reinforcement and the target for that reinforced evolution being Heaven.

The point is that it is better to have an argument ready, for why you are the way you are, not a conjecture about what you will be if you need to be, if indeed you get where you are going.

If I am on a plane, I don't say "thank goodness planes have parachutes" I want to know what the parachute is and where it is - so also, you ought to know how your Evolution varies with other Evolutions and what is an effectual way to reinforce it.

 

[Mark Quayle]

There are three productive alternatives, that are all qualified in the same way: creation - that is by design -, attraction - that is by courtship-, and evolution - that is by hunt. These three things are circularly beneficial (creation helps attraction, attraction helps evolution and evolution helps creation). It is possible to qualify them differently, in a sense that is not believed to be circular, but not being circular liberates this way of qualifying from qualifying it another - it is not necessary to be productive and on the hunt at the same time. That keeps it from being a useless qualification.

So we have the hunt, when it comes to Evolution, and we have the pack that is on the hunt, which reinforces the Evolution on the hunt. That is Evolution, reinforcing what advances from hunt to prey, in terms of the pack. Knowing what the pack is hunting for, is dependent on design, you cannot change that - take away the pack's ability to know what it is hunting for, makes the hunt ineffectual. So you see, it comes full circle: the hunter secures the prey and the hunt is over - but the rest that survive are able to communicate amongst themselves what it is that will likely escape the hunt in future (this is proactive Evolution, in a productive sense).

I have been at pains to work this out, for some time now and I have just recently introduced the concept of "reinforcing Evolution", which is the idea that one way evolution, is more productive than any-way-at-all evolution; you can't arrive at one way evolution on Earth, but you can in Heaven, which is why your soul lives, a fact that separates those who believe in the soul from those that think the flesh is what is responsible for a given creature's adaptations. I believe the soul is responsible for its adaptations, which is why I introduced the concept of reinforcement and the target for that reinforced evolution being Heaven.

The point is that it is better to have an argument ready, for why you are the way you are, not a conjecture about what you will be if you need to be, if indeed you get where you are going.

If I am on a plane, I don't say "thank goodness planes have parachutes" I want to know what the parachute is and where it is - so also, you ought to know how your Evolution varies with other Evolutions and what is an effectual way to reinforce it.

I don't mean this to be mean, but as @Estrid said on another thread and to another poster: "Only you, if that many, know what you are talking about." I simply cannot follow your reasoning, and I am far from seeing coherence, nevermind cohesive logic, to what you are saying here.

You still have not defined what you mean by "evolution", except, at best, simply the notion that we do not stagnate in heaven —that we, even there, progress in some way. The ideology you apparently hold to seems to promote the notion that we do so only for our own sakes or by ourselves, not as 'part of' or 'consisted of' unity with Christ. WHAT, in Heaven, is adaptation? What hunt? What prey? What courtship? What kind of progression are you positing? What are you talking about, and what scripture or reasoning do you have to back it up?

 

[Gottservant]

I don't mean this to be mean, but as @Estrid said on another thread and to another poster: "Only you, if that many, know what you are talking about." I simply cannot follow your reasoning, and I am far from seeing coherence, nevermind cohesive logic, to what you are saying here.

You still have not defined what you mean by "evolution", except, at best, simply the notion that we do not stagnate in heaven —that we, even there, progress in some way. The ideology you apparently hold to seems to promote the notion that we do so only for our own sakes or by ourselves, not as 'part of' or 'consisted of' unity with Christ. WHAT, in Heaven, is adaptation? What hunt? What prey? What courtship? What kind of progression are you positing? What are you talking about, and what scripture or reasoning do you have to back it up?

Just taking from your notion of scripture, remember that Christ took something that the world believed was one thing, and made it three: virginity - He said that there were virgins born, made and of decision. I have attempted to do a similar thing with the notion that God produces the flesh in different ways, some creatively, some by attraction, some evolved. From there I qualify what is most productive for each: creation, design; attraction, courtship; evolution, the pack. Then I look at the context in which you find these things, Heaven, Earth, Hell. Then I am reminded of what unites these things, being variations of what begins according to the Word of God: namely, the soul. The notion of the soul, being something that corrects the notion of mutation leading to adaptation - being that which works with adaptation, to make it strong (once it has been conceived what the adaptation is, not out of guesswork, please understand, recognizing it perhaps, but not as a foundation).

So I have a complete concept of how Evolution, Creation and Attraction work together, to bring respective changes.

I do not attempt to jump the gate, between one species and another, as though disembodied mutational Evolution somehow redefines whatever suits its purpose in distinction to what is clearly most productive. It is more productive to stay one species and not another, unless it can be understood spiritually (as a reflection of possible change, not substitution of it - as we must remind ourselves, Christ forgives our humanity, not distortions of it).

 

[returntosender]

Who knows. Gotts has his own "head version" of "evolution" that somehow is all tied up in his theology and utterly lacking in science, rather than using a version somewhat close to the scientific understanding which would be appropriate for a discussion of the subject in the science section of CF.

So why are you here then. Just to put him down?

 

[returntosender]

Not sure why you think God is obliged to do anything.

 

[Trusting in Him]

But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 corinthians 3:18)

How is this evolution? Is not God perfecting those who are His!

How is God obligated? Is this not His soverign will?

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Hi there,

So further to my discussion of the relevance of a host, to Evolution, I have started to wonder about God, specifically God helping creatures "evolve". Is God obliged to help creatures "evolve"? This question comes down to where it is that God offers the help. Jesus tells us "I do not receive honour from men" (gospels, from memory); men are those who dwell on Earth, so He is effectively saying "I do nothing, for the men of Earth" - because if He did something, then He would be said to receive honour. However, the Bible also tells us, that God is not willing that any should perish (letters, from memory).

If God is not willing that any perish, then He is obliged to give them a place, where they will survive - this place is Heaven. The point being that once you are in Heaven - because place is important - evolving is a constructive concept, one that is able to add to our survival (and not merely be "just enough"). There is no sense in which, you will be thrown out of Heaven for evolving the wrong way, as long as you continue to give God the praise, for having being evolved further. This is power. God is able to shape how things evolve, on Earth from Heaven. There is no sense in which God needs to change, in order to accommodate men on Earth.

That leaves Hell. Hell is the place where you can't evolve, even if you want to. We understand that this is for people who would persecute God for showing favouritism and would destroy the things of Earth, because they can not reach Heaven (not having praise for God). So it is that those in Heaven and Heaven on Earth, will always be more evolved, than the rest - because that is the way God designed them and their respective places. God wants praise that is genuine - He is not a fool. If you insult God, it will not be long before you lose favour with everything you should have known in life, was praise for God.

The power of this, is that it is possible to know, when your life is in favour with God, whether it evolves or not. From there you can choose to strengthen the faith of your young, with what you know about the will of God. This gives you power, but it also gives your young power. There is a word "discretion" which is apt, in this context - it refers to the idea of discerning one way or the other, how things should go: when you are truly old enough, this discretion will give you grown strength and long life and you will know for yourself, whether you believe Evolution "correctly" (for how can you believe "Evolution" correctly and not have favour?).

May your strength grow and your life be long - in all things praise God and He will grant you His favour.

I'll take a leap.....
Evolution stops after death. No room to grow whether physically or spiritually, any longer. Those who do not suffer the second death are made perfect.( I guess this could be the final evolutionary moment.)
Evolution, as in our ability to repent while alive, is an essential part of human growth towards santification. We have the Holy Spirit to help us with our path towards righteousness. How we spiritually evolve on earth is essential for the outcome in heaven.
Blessings.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Just taking from your notion of scripture, remember that Christ took something that the world believed was one thing, and made it three: virginity - He said that there were virgins born, made and of decision. I have attempted to do a similar thing with the notion that God produces the flesh in different ways, some creatively, some by attraction, some evolved.

Reference, please. There is a reference to eunuchs; "...there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven."

But even then, he says, "The one who can accept this should accept it.” It doesn't sound like something from which to draw a parallel pervasive principle from which to draw some kind of doctrine about an alternative to a secular theory. I mean, this isn't even eisegesis.

From there I qualify what is most productive for each: creation, design; attraction, courtship; evolution, the pack. Then I look at the context in which you find these things, Heaven, Earth, Hell.

What do you think it is that gives you authority to even go down this trail? Sounds like you get a skeletal notion, then try to give it meat, all on your own.

Then I am reminded of what unites these things, being variations of what begins according to the Word of God: namely, the soul. The notion of the soul, being something that corrects the notion of mutation leading to adaptation - being that which works with adaptation, to make it strong (once it has been conceived what the adaptation is, not out of guesswork, please understand, recognizing it perhaps, but not as a foundation).

So I have a complete concept of how Evolution, Creation and Attraction work together, to bring respective changes.

I do not attempt to jump the gate, between one species and another, as though disembodied mutational Evolution somehow redefines whatever suits its purpose in distinction to what is clearly most productive. It is more productive to stay one species and not another, unless it can be understood spiritually (as a reflection of possible change, not substitution of it - as we must remind ourselves, Christ forgives our humanity, not distortions of it).

I give up

 

[Hans Blaster]

So why are you here then. Just to put him down?

Because I want the discussions involving "evolution" to actually resemble "evolution". His "evolution" posts don't actually talk about evolution, but rather some weird fantasy version of "change" blended with some personal theology. He's been doing this for years. On those rare times he ventures close to something resembling science in his "evolution" discourses, we engage with him. But most of the time we can't, because his post doesn't make a lick of sense.

 

[Blade]

Not mush to say.. I'm not one for diving in and running playing with speculation as fun as it is or fantasy as one worded it. Why not add to your thinking that God is a spirit and God does not think like man. Then according to whats written man has not even had a thought of what God has instore or us after this life. Yeah not one human ever can even imagine it.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Because I want the discussions involving "evolution" to actually resemble "evolution". His "evolution" posts don't actually talk about evolution, but rather some weird fantasy version of "change" blended with some personal theology. He's been doing this for years. On those rare times he ventures close to something resembling science in his "evolution" discourses, we engage with him. But most of the time we can't, because his post doesn't make a lick of sense.

They don't make sense even on a theological level, as far as I can tell. His posts are not even cohesive, nevermind cogent. Even if he is navigating on some ethereal level beyond the normal, he isn't getting it into words.